Dre Kirkpatrick stock is rising

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-12-2016, 07:32 PM)J24 Wrote: I would rather spend the money on Zeitler than him. Kirk is good but he will not be worth the 10-12 mil that he will be asking for.

Can't do it...#1 CBs are rare, and the Bengals depth at CB is paper thin as it is with Dennard and WJIII being unknowns.  They won't be able to pay both, I agree, but it is Zeitler that is not what some team will pay him.  

Dre still doesn't always like to stick his head in to tackle, but he has developed in to a solid pass defender and he is a threat to pick one off any time there is the slightest misfire.  

I hope Dennard get more snaps down the stretch.  Although WJIII is the likely Adam Jones replacement, Dennard might be needed sooner than later. 

[Crowe]

(12-12-2016, 04:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This guy is turning into a shut down corner and has thrived this year. Ive been as hard on him as anyone, but man has he played well this year.

We need to give him an extension in the off season. He is improving every year and is about to peak.

I've been on the guys side since day 1 and he has been inconsistent and gone through growing pains, but this year and towards the end of last year he was playing very well. Some players just need the snaps to build the confidence and to get up to speed with the NFL. Hell I still have hope for guys like Dennard and Cedric O.. Guys just need meaningful snaps, if they get them and do not improve then move on. BTW I'm hoping we resign Dre along with Zeitler.

[fredtoast]

(12-12-2016, 05:57 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I am a bit worried it took his contract year for it to happen, though.

Dre was good last year.

He played 97% of the snaps for a pass defense that gave up the fewest long completions (20+ yds), the second fewest passing tds, and the fifth lowest pass efficiency ranking in the league.

He also ranked top 30 among qualifying CBs in every subjective coverage statistic I could find. 

Dre was just another in the long list of Bengals who have gotten hate from talk radio and message boards that they did not deserve.

[wolverine515151]

(12-13-2016, 09:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre was good last year.

He played 97% of the snaps for a pass defense that gave up the fewest long completions (20+ yds), the second fewest passing tds, and the fifth lowest pass efficiency ranking in the league.

He also ranked top 30 among qualifying CBs in every subjective coverage statistic I could find.

Dre was just another in the long list of Bengals who have gotten hate from talk radio and message boards that they did not deserve.

Kirkpatrick was garbage last year. Stop the cherry picking. He deserved the hate. This years hes been average.

In a game against the steelers last year, kirpatrick was covering Antonio brown the first series. Big Ben targeted Antonio brown almost every play and sliced through our defense like swiss cheese to score a quick TD. That drive took a few minutes. After that play Guenther put Pacman on Antonio Brown and he shut him down.

[Sled21]

(12-12-2016, 06:45 PM)Wyche Wrote: So.....you're saying he was beyond serviceable before this season?  He has been pretty bad at times.

He was never as bad as many on this board made him out to be, and has come from the opposite side of the field to save touchdowns more times than I can count....

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2016, 09:41 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Kirkpatrick was garbage last year. Stop the cherry picking. He deserved the hate. This years hes been average.

He was not garbage and I can post plenty of stats to prove it.  Of the 75 qualifying CBs Dre ranked 18th in yards allowed per target, 19th in completion percentage allowed, and 32nd in "success rate" (a Football Outsiders metric based on yards allowed per down and distance).  Also If a defense has a "garbage" CB playing 97% of the snaps they are not going to finish #1 in the league in fewest lang completions allowed, or third in passing tds allowed.

The people who claim he was garbage are the ones doing the cherry picking.  They point to three or four plays where he got beat and then act like no other CB in the league ever got beat.

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2016, 09:41 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: In a game against the stairs kirpatrick was covering Antonio brown the firsts Eries. Big Ben targeted Antonio brown, almost every play and sliced through our defense like swiss cheese to score a quick TD. That drive took a few minutes. After that play Guenther put Pacman on Antonio Brown and shut him down.

Classic cherry picking.  I'll bet you blame the td on that drive on Dre, don't you.

[wolverine515151]

(12-13-2016, 09:55 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Classic cherry picking.  I'll bet you blame the td on that drive on Dre, don't you.

Whose fault would it be santa claus. Of course it was Kirkpatricks fault. You cherry pick stats to make Kirpatrick look better than he was.

Using vague statements like stats I could find. Well a lot of us can select stats that we claim are the only ones we can find to make a biased one sided argument.  You have chosen once again to cherry pick your stats.

His stats were inflated because he usually didnt cover the top corner. What were his yards allowed after the catch. What about his run defense. We know hes not the best tackler. How many td's did he give up. How many interceptions did he get. How many fumbles did he cause. What was the opposing qb's rating against him.

Let's use steelers last years weapons. If a guy like Kirkpatrick is covering the second option at wide out that means the QB has gone through his progressions before he targets the guy Kirkpatrick is covering. So say he looks at Antonio brown covered, then he looks at heath miller covered, then he finally targets wheaten for a throw. By that time he's getting pressured and throwing off his back foot. Of course Kirkpatrick is going to have a better chance to stop that play.

Furthermore, if a guy gives up 12 of 20 passes its worse than 4 of 5. That's because the corner giving up 12 of 20 was being being picked on because his guy was uncovered 20 times. The other guy had his guy covered most of the time and only was targeted 5 times. So quantity of targets as well as percentage of passes completed when targeted is needed.

The best corner is 0 out of 0. Thats because his guy was never open for a pass.

On top of that how many pass interference or holding calls did Kirkpatrick get. Thats usually indicative of a corner getting beat off the snap. You grab the guy down field to prevent a catch.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-13-2016, 09:45 AM)Sled21 Wrote: He was never as bad as many on this board made him out to be, and has come from the opposite side of the field to save touchdowns more times than I can count....

Message board hyperbole notwithstanding, he had a propensity for getting burned and getting flagged rather often....more than he saved anything.  Toward the end of last season, and on in to this season has seen quite the improvement on his part.

[HarleyDog]

(12-13-2016, 09:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He was not garbage and I can post plenty of stats to prove it.  Of the 75 qualifying CBs Dre ranked 18th in yards allowed per target, 19th in completion percentage allowed, and 32nd in "success rate" (a Football Outsiders metric based on yards allowed per down and distance).  Also If a defense has a "garbage" CB playing 97% of the snaps they are not going to finish #1 in the league in fewest lang completions allowed, or third in passing tds allowed.

The people who claim he was garbage are the ones doing the cherry picking.  They point to three or four plays where he got beat and then act like no other CB in the league ever got beat.

I remembered him getting a lot of penalties and getting burned in crucial situations. He's far better this year than last but still has some issues. He has done well at maneuvering himself inside for the pick, but rarely comes up with it. His hands need work. Also, just a pet peeve of mine, he seems to be pleading a case after every play. Stop that shit, it's annoying.

[wolverine515151]

(12-13-2016, 10:11 AM)Wyche Wrote: Message board hyperbole notwithstanding, he had a propensity for getting burned and getting flagged rather often....more than he saved anything. Toward the end of last season, and on in to this season has seen quite the improvement on his part.

I will say he has improved quite a bit from last season, even if the stats don't show it. I would even say he is possibly above average.

[yellowxdiscipline]

So the real question we should be asking is who we are more comfortable with Dennard or Shaw? Dre K is gonna make some money, probably not here.

[kevin]

(12-12-2016, 04:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: This guy is turning into a shut down corner and has thrived this year. Ive been as hard on him as anyone, but man has he played well this year.

We need to give him an extension in the off season. He is improving every year and is about to peak.

In 3 weeks he becomes a free agent......Look for him to test the free agent waters for MONEY......Very possible Mike Brown doesn't try that much to sign him BECAUSE Mikey is paying Pacman so much and Mikey drafted Dennard and Jackson both in ROUND ONE......Mikey who was part of letting Lemar Parrish go,  and huge in letting Joseph, Hall, Nelson and Newman go would stay par for the course by letting Kirkpatrick go........PLUS Mikey Boy didn't sign Whitworth or Zeitler who also become free agents in 3 weeks.....If both Kirkpatrick and Zeitler leave then the Carson trade and that recent draft of Kirkpatrick and Zeitler early become such a waste. Classic Mikey Boy. ....I fear that when Mikey way over paid Pacman to long contract and drafted CB in round One last couple years, Mikey had made up his mind right then that he was not resigning Kirkpatrick. I agree Kirkpatrick has came on to be our best CB, but too late in regards to Mikey Boy who over paid Pacman and has been drafting CBs.......Of the 3 free agents and 1 franchise tag, I would say keep Zeitler or at least Whitworth. ....Mike Brown has painted himself into a corner and we will lose top players to free agency as we did last year as this play-off team unravels into a last place team due to Mike Brown not resigning players BEFORE the season.....I refuse to relive the 1990's era of this team. If it gets that bad, this fan since 1968 just won't follow 1990's type Bengals ever again.

[WeezyBengal]

(12-13-2016, 09:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre was good last year.

He played 97% of the snaps for a pass defense that gave up the fewest long completions (20+ yds), the second fewest passing tds, and the fifth lowest pass efficiency ranking in the league.

He also ranked top 30 among qualifying CBs in every subjective coverage statistic I could find. 

Dre was just another in the long list of Bengals who have gotten hate from talk radio and message boards that they did not deserve.

Dre was decent last year. He had his fair share of let downs and was inconsistent at times. He also had a decent amount of boneheaded mistakes and penalties. Thats why some of us fans were down on him. 

He has cut back on that this year, which is why he has developed into a pretty good corner back. 

Him being part of one of the best defenses in the league doesn't automatically make him good, though. Based on that logic, Matthew Delvedova would be considered a good player because he started and the Cavs won the NBA title last year. 

[WeezyBengal]

(12-13-2016, 10:45 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: So the real question we should be asking is who we are more comfortable with Dennard or Shaw? Dre K is gonna make some money, probably not here.

Why not here? 

Thats my issues with this organization and the fans. We just expect our guys that we have developed over the years to walk and for some younger unproven talent to take their place. 

Lets man up and pay our guy. Tired of it. 

[WeezyBengal]

(12-13-2016, 01:05 PM)kevin Wrote: In 3 weeks he becomes a free agent......Look for him to test the free agent waters for MONEY......Very possible Mike Brown doesn't try that much to sign him BECAUSE Mikey is paying Pacman so much and Mikey drafted Dennard and Jackson both in ROUND ONE......Mikey who was part of letting Lemar Parrish go,  and huge in letting Joseph, Hall, Nelson and Newman go would stay par for the course by letting Kirkpatrick go........PLUS Mikey Boy didn't sign Whitworth or Zeitler who also become free agents in 3 weeks.....If both Kirkpatrick and Zeitler leave then the Carson trade and that recent draft of Kirkpatrick and Zeitler early become such a waste. Classic Mikey Boy. ....I fear that when Mikey way over paid Pacman to long contract and drafted CB in round One last couple years, Mikey had made up his mind right then that he was not resigning Kirkpatrick.  I agree Kirkpatrick has came on to be our best CB, but too late in regards to Mikey Boy who over paid Pacman and has been drafting CBs.......Of the 3 free agents and 1 franchise tag, I would say keep Zeitler or at least Whitworth. ....Mike Brown has painted himself into a corner and we will lose top players to free agency as we did last year as this play-off team unravels into a last place team due to Mike Brown not resigning players BEFORE the season.....I refuse to relive the 1990's era of this team. If it gets that bad, this fan since 1968 just won't follow 1990's type Bengals ever again.

I think I agree with pretty much everything you said in that mess of words. 

[Sled21]

(12-13-2016, 01:05 PM)kevin Wrote: In 3 weeks he becomes a free agent......Look for him to test the free agent waters for MONEY......Very possible Mike Brown doesn't try that much to sign him BECAUSE Mikey is paying Pacman so much and Mikey drafted Dennard and Jackson both in ROUND ONE......Mikey who was part of letting Lemar Parrish go,  and huge in letting Joseph, Hall, Nelson and Newman go would stay par for the course by letting Kirkpatrick go........PLUS Mikey Boy didn't sign Whitworth or Zeitler who also become free agents in 3 weeks.....If both Kirkpatrick and Zeitler leave then the Carson trade and that recent draft of Kirkpatrick and Zeitler early become such a waste. Classic Mikey Boy. ....I fear that when Mikey way over paid Pacman to long contract and drafted CB in round One last couple years, Mikey had made up his mind right then that he was not resigning Kirkpatrick.  I agree Kirkpatrick has came on to be our best CB, but too late in regards to Mikey Boy who over paid Pacman and has been drafting CBs.......Of the 3 free agents and 1 franchise tag, I would say keep Zeitler or at least Whitworth. ....Mike Brown has painted himself into a corner and we will lose top players to free agency as we did last year as this play-off team unravels into a last place team due to Mike Brown not resigning players BEFORE the season.....I refuse to relive the 1990's era of this team. If it gets that bad, this fan since 1968 just won't follow 1990's type Bengals ever again.

Again, Jones is not overpaid. His contract puts him 27th among corners. That is not overpaid for a #1 corner coming off a Pro Bowl season. That's just nonsense. You don't like the guy, that does not mean Brown overpaid him.

[Jpoore]

Probably gonna be able to pay zeitler and Kirkpatrick this year with cap going up almost 9 MIL.

[XenoMorph]

(12-13-2016, 01:16 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Dre was decent last year. He had his fair share of let downs and was inconsistent at times. He also had a decent amount of boneheaded mistakes and penalties. Thats why some of us fans were down on him. 

He has cut back on that this year, which is why he has developed into a pretty good corner back. 

Him being part of one of the best defenses in the league doesn't automatically make him good, though. Based on that logic, Matthew Delvedova would be considered a good player because he started and the Cavs won the NBA title last year. 

some of the things people attribute to dre as him messing up was actually him busting his butt across the field to save a play someone else blew.

[magikod]

good time to play well with the contract year