The Cincinnati Street Car

[WeezyBengal]

Ridership is way below than what was expected, 4 of the 5 cars are currently undergoing maintenance because they are broke, and the city is continuing to dump money into this thing.

What do you guys think? Has anyone rode it before?

Personally, I never liked the project from the beginning and the latest developments are just confirming that. The city dumped millions of dollars into this thing and it will just continue.

I guess im still failing to see the point of it. It covers like a two mile loop in central downtown. Cant people walk, take a Uber, or rent a red bike to get where they want to go downtown?

[*michaelsean*]

I hope that maintenance is covered by the manufacturer. I've never been on it. I live in Norwood, and if it came out that far, then it would be something I would do. Not just because I live there, but because it's a good central location where people could park and ride into downtown.

[xxlt]

(12-16-2016, 10:25 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Ridership is way below than what was expected, 4 of the 5 cars are currently undergoing maintenance because they are broke, and the city is continuing to dump money into this thing.

What do you guys think? Has anyone rode it before?

Personally, I never liked the project from the beginning and the latest developments are just confirming that. The city dumped millions of dollars into this thing and it will just continue.

I guess im still failing to see the point of it. It covers like a two mile loop in central downtown. Cant people walk, take a Uber, or rent a red bike to get where they want to go downtown?

It works in other cities, such as Portland. I have not seen the Cincy incarnation, but I know initially ridership there exceeded expectations. Curious about the dip. Did you see a data set that tracked it?

There was opposition to the Cincy light rail, that I do know. I wonder if the proposal got so watered down as to make it impotent.

Ride share services like Lyft (and Uber) and cabs are not the answer to downtown congestion and pollution. Bikes are part of the solution in some communities - does Cincy have a bike rental program? We just added one in my new home town but have not seen data on its use yet. The goal of light rail is to take cars off the road and thus reduce congestion & pollution and make downtown more pedestrian friendly so people can, yes walk. Even if people still commute into or toward the downtown but then abandon their car for their movement in the urban corridor it helps with traffic and pollution. Nobody wants to walk or ride a bike in a downtown that is packed with idling automobiles moving at less than 10 MPH.

What would you propose as a better solution? (Again, bringing in more taxis and ride shares actually worsens the problem light rail is meant to solve.)

In cities like DC, Chicago, and off course NYC and London, a robust rail service serves millions if not tens of millions of riders each year. Hopefully the downtown loop is a first step for Cincy to get to a smaller scale but healthy rail transit system serving a broader swath of the city.

[*michaelsean*]

It doesn't decrease congestion because it doesn't go anywhere. It goes from downtown to uptown, and people still need to drive their cars in to use it. It needs to leave the downtown/uptown area where people can get on it and ride it in. Right now it's a novelty that serves very little purpose.

[WeezyBengal]

(12-16-2016, 11:05 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I hope that maintenance is covered by the manufacturer.  I've never been on it.  I live in Norwood, and if it came out that far, then it would be something I would do.  Not just because I live there, but because it's a good central location where people could park and ride into downtown.

Agree 100% with this. 

I think the city should have focused on a way to connect the outside neighborhoods to downtown. I could have gotten into that. I love how easy it is to get from one neighborhood to another in cities with trains like Chicago, Boston, etc. 

I think in phase 2 they are planning on taking it up to Clifton, but I hear that phase is not set in stone yet, so who knows. 

[WeezyBengal]

(12-16-2016, 12:10 PM)xxlt Wrote: It works in other cities, such as Portland. I have not seen the Cincy incarnation, but I know initially ridership there exceeded expectations. Curious about the dip. Did you see a data set that tracked it?

There was opposition to the Cincy light rail, that I do know. I wonder if the proposal got so watered down as to make it impotent.

Ride share services like Lyft (and Uber) and cabs are not the answer to downtown congestion and pollution. Bikes are part of the solution in some communities - does Cincy have a bike rental program? We just added one in my new home town but have not seen data on its use yet. The goal of light rail is to take cars off the road and thus reduce congestion & pollution and make downtown more pedestrian friendly so people can, yes walk. Even if people still commute into or toward the downtown but then abandon their car for their movement in the urban corridor it helps with traffic and pollution. Nobody wants to walk or ride a bike in a downtown that is packed with idling automobiles moving at less than 10 MPH.

What would you propose as a better solution? (Again, bringing in more taxis and ride shares actually worsens the problem light rail is meant to solve.)

In cities like DC, Chicago, and off course NYC and London, a robust rail service serves millions if not tens of millions of riders each year. Hopefully the downtown loop is a first step for Cincy to get to a smaller scale but healthy rail transit system serving a broader swath of the city.

Here is the article: 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/12/06/streetcar-ridership-numbers-way-short-projections/95043064/

The numbers were way up in the beginning because it was a novelty at first. Now that the "newness" has worn off and everyone has gotten their joy ride in, no one seems to be riding it because of functional purposes. 

My answer is that downtown Cincinnati doesnt need any kind of transportation solution. Its not that big. If you want to get somewhere then you can either walk, take a red bike (rent and drop bike rental on many street corners), etc. 

Like I said, I could have gotten behind the light rail idea. I think a connection from downtown Cincinnati to its out landing suburbs is something that this city is missing. Can you imagine a train that connects Mason to downtown? It would be so beneficial. 

[*michaelsean*]

(12-16-2016, 01:22 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Here is the article: 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/12/06/streetcar-ridership-numbers-way-short-projections/95043064/

The numbers were way up in the beginning because it was a novelty at first. Now that the "newness" has worn off and everyone has gotten their joy ride in, no one seems to be riding it because of functional purposes. 

My answer is that downtown Cincinnati doesnt need any kind of transportation solution. Its not that big. If you want to get somewhere then you can either walk, take a red bike (rent and drop bike rental on many street corners), etc. 

Like I said, I could have gotten behind the light rail idea. I think a connection from downtown Cincinnati to its out landing suburbs is something that this city is missing. Can you imagine a train that connects Mason to downtown? It would be so beneficial. 

Exactly.  You'd be full non-stop on something that went out to Mason.  Hell even halfway to Mason with parking areas would be huge.  

[xxlt]

(12-16-2016, 01:22 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Here is the article: 

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2016/12/06/streetcar-ridership-numbers-way-short-projections/95043064/

The numbers were way up in the beginning because it was a novelty at first. Now that the "newness" has worn off and everyone has gotten their joy ride in, no one seems to be riding it because of functional purposes. 

My answer is that downtown Cincinnati doesnt need any kind of transportation solution. Its not that big. If you want to get somewhere then you can either walk, take a red bike (rent and drop bike rental on many street corners), etc. 

Like I said, I could have gotten behind the light rail idea. I think a connection from downtown Cincinnati to its out landing suburbs is something that this city is missing. Can you imagine a train that connects Mason to downtown? It would be so beneficial. 

Thanks for the link!

I agree with you in large part - you can walk, I can walk, but the average person in many parts of America is too lazy to. Cincy is probably one of those parts.

There is a scene in The Gods Must Be Crazy! where a woman backs her car twenty feet down the driveway to the mailbox, gets a handful of business envelopes out of the mailbox, and drives back up into the garage. That's the mentality of too many people, and changing it ain't easy. But if they can walk their fat asses the same distance to the street car as to the office garage, sit down on the street car and ride 4 blocks to Wendy's, eat, and then ride back to work instead of driving there, they might do that. Multiply that by just 750 downtown workers a day and you are 25% of the way to the ridership they are targeting.

So, I think the numbers set as goals are reasonable. I also think with special events like Reds and Bengals games the ridership should spike if the system kinks get worked out and they might even beat the targeted numbers. Season will also effect ridership, right? Things like Party in the Park and concerts and Riverfest don't happen November to February...

I hope they keep trying to work out the bugs and expand it. It is not only an environmental win if it works, it is a human win (imagine a relaxing commute Mason to downtown where you can read or nap or check emails vs whiteknuckling down I-75 or I-71), and in most cities it is a business win as it stimulates commerce around stops.

Sounds like growing pains. I wouldn't bury it yet, even though critics would love to.

I think there are some obvious spoke candidates - such as Mason which you mentioned - for destinations.

The article talks about the need for a traffic study and and a comprehensive solution downtown. So, I think traffic downtown may be worse than you realize, and again, that is a business concern and ultimately an economic concern everyone has a stake in.

[Sabretooth]

(12-17-2016, 12:12 AM)xxlt Wrote: I agree with you in large part - you can walk, I can walk, but the average person in many parts of America is too lazy to. Cincy is probably one of those parts.

There is a scene in The Gods Must Be Crazy! where a woman backs her car twenty feet down the driveway to the mailbox, gets a handful of business envelopes out of the mailbox, and drives back up into the garage. That's the mentality of too many people, and changing it ain't easy. But if they can walk their fat asses the same distance to the street car as to the office garage, sit down on the street car and ride 4 blocks to Wendy's, eat, and then ride back to work instead of driving there, they might do that. 

Don't forget age,illness,or injury are factors also.My sister is 81 years old and has had multiple major surgeries.Her house is on a hill ,and when she is unsteady drives down to the mailbox. I  have acute gout attacks,when it's in my ankles,feet or knees I can't walk and have to sit down the steps to get into other rooms without falling.We both bought tri levels in 1979 when very healthy.

[xxlt]

(12-17-2016, 11:46 AM)Sabretooth Wrote: Don't forget age,illness,or injury are factors also.My sister is 81 years old and has had multiple major surgeries.Her house is on a hill ,and when she is unsteady drives down to the mailbox. I  have acute gout attacks,when it's in my ankles,feet or knees I can't walk and have to sit down the steps to get into other rooms without falling.We both bought tri levels in 1979 when very healthy.

Thank you. You are 100% right.

For the record, n the movie I referenced it is completely clear the woman who drives 20 feet to the mailbox does so simply because she can, not because she can't walk. The scene contrasts the "civilized" person with the "primitive" bush person who walks miles a day just to obtain food and water. 

But, I just had that conversation the other day with someone about how someone may "look" fine but have legitimate reason(s) for the handicap placard on their vehicle. We both agreed to encourage awareness of this reality and I thank you for doing the same!  

[Wes Mantooth]

Don't forget that it's been involved in numerous traffic accidents. Those insurance rates are going to go up a bunch.

Stupidest idea ever. It will be a consistent drain, never coming close to paying itself. It goes virtually nowhere, and its by far the slowest of transportation options. But hey, at least a lot of people made money off of it.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

The first thing they should have done was have the streetcar go from the airport in Kentucky to downtown Cincinnati. 

Then they set up a route in the downtown/uptown area 
Then a route from downtown to and from Covington/Newport
Then a route from downtown to and from the east side
Then a route from downtown to and from the west side
Then a route from downtown to and from the north side

Once all of greater Cincinnati is connected then have a route to and from Dayton...then Columbus...then Indianapolis...then Lexington...then Louisville.

Make Union Terminal the main hub like it used to be.

[*Awful Llama*]

I don't live in the 'Nati and the sum total of most visits is get in for a game and get out, so I haven't used it. But, I am familiar with the concept somewhat. Detroit has a "people mover" elevated train system that encircles downtown. It has been in use since the '80s and has, from what I understand, similar criticisms to the Cincinnati system. Its track is only about three miles long, so unless you're already downtown it won't do you any good. And, a lot of the ridership comes from tourists who want the unique experience instead of consistent resident usage. It has budget and cost overrun issues, too. Hopefully Cincinnati's system will find its footing and be an asset to the city.

[xxlt]

(12-17-2016, 08:37 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: The first thing they should have done was have the streetcar go from the airport in Kentucky to downtown Cincinnati. 

Then they set up a route in the downtown/uptown area 
Then a route from downtown to and from Covington/Newport
Then a route from downtown to and from the east side
Then a route from downtown to and from the west side
Then a route from downtown to and from the north side

Once all of greater Cincinnati is connected then have a route to and from Dayton...then Columbus...then Indianapolis...then Lexington...then Louisville.

Make Union Terminal the main hub like it used to be.

Great ideas. I think a similar proposal was actually on the board decades ago - and following the existing interstates would have made construction easy and almost guaranteed ridership as you are putting people on the same route they would be on any way but they don't have to drive and instead of staring at traffic that isn't moving while sitting in it they can stare at it as they cruise past it or do something else like read or play pocket pool. It is amazing how vehement opposition has been to this and continues to be. WTF is wrong with people. Did they resist the horse for decades? The horse drawn carriage? The automobile? The paved road? The interstate?

[xxlt]

(12-17-2016, 04:09 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Don't forget that it's been involved in numerous traffic accidents. Those insurance rates are going to go up a bunch.

Stupidest idea ever. It will be a consistent drain, never coming close to paying itself. It goes virtually nowhere, and its by far the slowest of transportation options.  But hey, at least a lot of people made money off of it.  

To  be fair, some people would have made money had it not been constructed.

[GreenDragon]

As I expected, the street car is a bust. Cincinnati is not New York or LA. We don't need this shi..t.

[Sabretooth]

(12-17-2016, 11:52 AM)xxlt Wrote: Thank you. You are 100% right.

For the record, n the movie I referenced it is completely clear the woman who drives 20 feet to the mailbox does so simply because she can, not because she can't walk. The scene contrasts the "civilized" person with the "primitive" bush person who walks miles a day just to obtain food and water. 

But, I just had that conversation the other day with someone about how someone may "look" fine but have legitimate reason(s) for the handicap placard on their vehicle. We both agreed to encourage awareness of this reality and I thank you for doing the same!  

I am gonna rent that movie sometime.
Thank you for being involved.

[xxlt]

(12-18-2016, 03:41 AM)GreenDragon Wrote: As I expected, the street car is a bust. Cincinnati is not New York or LA. We don't need this shi..t.

Where is the Los Angeles street car?

Cincinnati doesn't need indoor plumbing either, but some people have come to embrace its benefits.

[xxlt]

(12-18-2016, 05:28 AM)Sabretooth Wrote: I am gonna rent that movie sometime.
Thank you for being involved.

Back at you. As one dirty hippy once said, "It takes a village," lol.

(And, I can't wait for you to see Xi's village. The Gods Must Be Crazy is entertaining. The sequel, not so much.)

[GreenDragon]

(12-18-2016, 02:25 PM)xxlt Wrote: Where is the Los Angeles street car?

Cincinnati doesn't need indoor plumbing either, but some people have come to embrace its benefits.

I'm saying we're not as large a city as some want to think.