Tom Brady and Andy Dalton against Texans

[TGISunday]

Sigh.

What SR is trying to say (or should have said) was the Bengals have the talent in place to play with the best in the league, as evidenced by his initial stat comparison.  It doesn't have to be so gloomy around here all the time.  Not that AD is Sir Tom.

Why do we have to talk past one another?

Btw, Texans weren't the #1 D in 2011. 23rd in points allowed, 4th in yards. Break but don't bend?
Don't go all in on your hand with pocket 2s.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/opp.htm

[Brownshoe]

(01-16-2017, 10:54 AM)TGISunday Wrote: Sigh.

What SR is trying to say (or should have said) was the Bengals have the talent in place to play with the best in the league, as evidenced by his initial stat comparison.  It doesn't have to be so gloomy around here all the time.  Not that AD is Sir Tom.

Why do we have to talk past one another?

Btw, Texans weren't the #1 D in 2011. 23rd in points allowed, 4th in yards. Break but don't bend?
Don't go all in on your hand with pocket 2s.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/opp.htm

It says they were 4th in points allowed and 2nd in yards

[*bfine32*]

(01-16-2017, 10:54 AM)TGISunday Wrote: Btw, Texans weren't the #1 D in 2011. 23rd in points allowed, 4th in yards. Break but don't bend?
Don't go all in on your hand with pocket 2s.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2011/opp.htm

Of course they weren't #1 and we had more weapons than AJ Green. We had 1,000 rusher in Cedric Benson, one of the best TEs in the league in Jermaine Gresham, good change of pace back in Brian Leonard, and complimentary receiver in Jerome Simpson.

It just makes Andy sound more awesome if you suggest he went against the #1 D in the NFL with no weapons. 

[bengalguy71]

(01-16-2017, 03:13 AM)Trademark Wrote: Tom Brady actually wins playoff games and also has rings...Get back to me when Dalton does

We can agree to disagree my brother, because it's apples and oranges.  Brady is in an organization that wins EVEN when he doesn't play, ie 2008, 11-5, and 3 of the first 4 games of his suspension this year, plus the Pats are in a much more lame division than the AFCN.

Seeing how the Pats organization coaches and brings along QBs, I am confident that if the situation was reversed, Brady still might have a SB with the Bengals but I doubt he has 4 with them, AND I believe Dalton would have won at least one with the Pats!! 

[Hoofhearted]

(01-16-2017, 08:48 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Great example.  You are actually making my point for me...

One had Zeke Elliot, Dez Bryant, Jason Witten, the best oline in football, and was going against one of the worst defenses in the league at home.  

The other had AJ Green, and was going against the #1 defense in the league on the road.  

Yep, with all those other things being so similar, it is easy to say why each QB fared so similarly.

Why not just have the QBs face off in a cage match, since it is clearly only the QB that matters.  

Dude, he's thrown two more TDs than AD has in four tries. Four.

[TGISunday]

(01-16-2017, 11:26 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: It says they were 4th in points allowed and 2nd in yards

Apologies. For some reason 'scoring defense' was sorted another way than actual scoring.

That said, still not #1.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-16-2017, 12:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course they weren't #1 and we had more weapons than AJ Green. We had 1,000 rusher in Cedric Benson, one of the best TEs in the league in Jermaine Gresham, good change of pace back in Brian Leonard, and complimentary receiver in Jerome Simpson.

It just makes Andy sound more awesome if you suggest he went against the #1 D in the NFL with no weapons. 

1. The Bengals ranked 27th in yards per carry in 2011. The run game sucked. Plus in the game we are discussing, Benson had a whopping 12 yards on 8 touches. What an amazing weapon, eh? Dalton actually outgained Benson by 3 yards on the ground. 

2. The only people who think Gresh was ever a top of the line TE is you and afew of his bigger fans. He ranked 18th among TEs in receiving yards in the year we're discussing.

3. Jerome Simpson? Psst. If you're going to pretend to be objective, you shouldn't promote Simpson as a weapon. 

4. I suppose Leonard was a solid change of pace guy. I would never have called him a huge asset, but at least he played better than Benson in the playoff game, although that didn't require much.

5. And yeah the Texans weren't #1 in defense. They were #2. Y'all should eat that and move the goal posts to something else.
_______________

And none of this is even touching on Marvin Lewis, his 0-7 playoff record, or how all 4 QBs have played terribly and led horrific offensive performances. I choose not to think it's a coincidence. You choose to blame the QBs. Except McCarron I guess. We certainly don't want to compare his first playoff game to Dak's, right?

[*bfine32*]

(01-16-2017, 01:06 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Dude, he's thrown two more TDs than AD has in four tries. Four.

....and there were probably thought I was joking by suggesting some would think Dak = Andy in playoffs. Stupid moving goal post.

[Brownshoe]

(01-16-2017, 01:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. The Bengals ranked 27th in yards per carry in 2011. The run game sucked. Plus in the game we are discussing, Benson had a whopping 12 yards on 8 touches. What an amazing weapon, eh? Dalton actually outgained Benson by 3 yards on the ground. 

2. The only people who think Gresh was ever a top of the line TE is you and afew of his bigger fans. He ranked 18th among TEs in receiving yards in the year we're discussing.

3. Jerome Simpson? Psst. If you're going to pretend to be objective, you shouldn't promote Simpson as a weapon. 

4. I suppose Leonard was a solid change of pace guy. I would never have called him a huge asset, but at least he played better than Benson in the playoff game, although that didn't require much.

5. And yeah the Texans weren't #1 in defense. They were #2. Y'all should eat that and move the goal posts to something else.
_______________

And none of this is even touching on Marvin Lewis, his 0-7 playoff record, or how all 4 QBs have played terribly and led horrific offensive performances. I choose not to think it's a coincidence. You choose to blame the QBs. Except McCarron I guess. We certainly don't want to compare his first playoff game to Dak's, right?

You're wrong about Gresham. He's normally one of the top TEs in the league in drops, fumbles, and penalties...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-15-2017, 09:39 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: I like Andy's talent a lot better than several NFL QB's however he is not in the same discussion with ANY of the top guys in the league. 

My issue is that the OP has this twilight zone mentality that if we say it said enough times it will come true. That is exactly how Mike & Marvin and run this organization. 

To get back to the OP topic...do you think that yesterday's game proved that Dalton and Brady are basically the same when they pay the same defense? 

Dalton last year up until the thumb injury was playing just as good if not better than Brady and Rodgers who besides
Matt Ryan this year are the two best QB's in the league right now. Dalton can be just as good as Tom Brady if he has a
good O-line a running game and all of his weapons healthy.

Dalton is a better deep passer than Brady believe it or not. Brady is a better dink and dunk passer and has the best HC
maybe ever. I do think that Brady has that killer instinct that Dalton needs to develop though.

To act like comparing Dalton to Brady is an insult to Brady is foolish to me. We can compare them in the regular season.

Just not in the Playoffs, cause we have a shitty coach and our whole team plays bad in the playoffs except our Defense
last year in the Steeler game.

[Junglejuice]

(01-15-2017, 06:07 PM)clevelandsdad Wrote: So effing true. Dalton is a good starting QB in the league. But Brady is Great with a capital G(OAT).

"Good" is ALL Dalton will ever be. He excels if and only if the players around him excel. This has been shown year in and year out. Brady excels regardless of his supporting cast. This too has been proven year in and year out. 

We need to accept these facts and stop trying to convince ourselves otherwise.

IMO I'm an Andy fan but I agree you cannot compare the two.  At the same time though people act on this board act like if you don't have a TB you cant win.
A consistently good to really good QB is pretty hard to come by in the league. And guys like Matt Ryan's 2016 and Andy's 2015 season show you what can be with a really good QB at the helm and a good team around them.  IMO guys like Rodgers, P.Manning, and Tom Brady have been the only guys in the last 10-15 years or so to put their teams on their backs and win almost every year they have played.  They have routinely made decent to below average teams great just by being on the roster.

While it would be wonderful to have a multi generational talent at the helm the fact is that at this moment in time Dalton is not that guy.  At the same time he is more than capable of doing his part to hoist a Lombardy or 2 here.  This team only needs a couple pieces IMO to get there as we have been snake bit the last 3 years with injuries and constantly moving pieces on the staff.  

I fully expect Andy to continue to fall in that fringe top 10 - 12 range with a healthy team behind him.  And I can live with that just fine.  As for coaching.... that's still the one issue holding us back I believe.

[Buckeyes420]

(01-16-2017, 03:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Dalton last year up until the thumb injury was playing just as good if not better than Brady and Rodgers who besides
Matt Ryan this year are the two best QB's in the league right now. Dalton can be just as good as Tom Brady if he has a
good O-line a running game and all of his weapons healthy.

Dalton is a better deep passer than Brady believe it or not. Brady is a better dink and dunk passer and has the best HC
maybe ever. I do think that Brady has that killer instinct that Dalton needs to develop though.

To act like comparing Dalton to Brady is an insult to Brady is foolish to me. We can compare them in the regular season.

Just not in the Playoffs, cause we have a shitty coach and our whole team plays bad in the playoffs except our Defense
last year in the Steeler game.

Pretty simple to me....Dalton chokes under pressure while Brady thrives,And whoever said gresham was a top TE is crazy..Gresham was one of the worst starting TE when he was here.,He was great at false starts and fumbles though.I would rather throw it to Jake Fisher

[CageTheBengal]

How does anyone think comparing a HoF and arguably the best QB ever to an above average QB is fair?

Is this where the "accepting mediocrity" line comes into play?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-16-2017, 03:32 PM)Buckeyes420 Wrote: Pretty simple to me....Dalton chokes under pressure while Brady thrives,And whoever said gresham was a top TE is crazy..Gresham was one of the worst starting TE when he was here.,He was great at false starts and fumbles though.I would rather throw it to Jake Fisher

Cannot disagree that Dalton has not played well in the big games.

Brady in this respect is worlds apart.

Gresham i would not say was one of the worst starting TE's while he was here, he was alright, just never lived
up to his draft status. To say you would rather throw to Fisher is laughable. He has like 2 catches lol

(01-16-2017, 03:35 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote:

How does anyone think comparing a HoF and arguably the best QB ever to an above average QB is fair?

Is this where the "accepting mediocrity" line comes into play?

Comparing regular season numbers is fair. It gets unfair come post season.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-16-2017, 03:30 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: IMO I'm an Andy fan but I agree you cannot compare the two.  At the same time though people act on this board act like if you don't have a TB you cant win.
A consistently good to really good QB is pretty hard to come by in the league. And guys like Matt Ryan's 2016 and Andy's 2015 season show you what can be with a really good QB at the helm and a good team around them.  IMO guys like Rodgers, P.Manning, and Tom Brady have been the only guys in the last 10-15 years or so to put their teams on their backs and win almost every year they have played.  They have routinely made decent to below average teams great just by being on the roster.

While it would be wonderful to have a multi generational talent at the helm the fact is that at this moment in time Dalton is not that guy.  At the same time he is more than capable of doing his part to hoist a Lombardy or 2 here.  This team only needs a couple pieces IMO to get there as we have been snake bit the last 3 years with injuries and constantly moving pieces on the staff.  

I fully expect Andy to continue to fall in that fringe top 10 - 12 range with a healthy team behind him.  And I can live with that just fine.  As for coaching.... that's still the one issue holding us back I believe.

This couldn't sum up any better how I feel about Dalton. Really good, but not an elite top 5 guy. Just around top 10. Could perform at an elite level with the right coaching and even semi decent players/blocking. I refuse to blame any more players for the playoff/prime time stuff. That's always been a theme of Marv's tenure, so why blame Andy but no other players?

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-16-2017, 01:06 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Dude, he's thrown two more TDs than AD has in four tries. Four.

He did.  And Tom Brady also blocked for himself, caught those passes, and called those plays.  Did it all by himself.  

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-16-2017, 03:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Dalton last year up until the thumb injury was playing just as good if not better than Brady and Rodgers who besides
Matt Ryan this year are the two best QB's in the league right now. Dalton can be just as good as Tom Brady if he has a
good O-line a running game and all of his weapons healthy.

Dalton is a better deep passer than Brady believe it or not. Brady is a better dink and dunk passer and has the best HC
maybe ever. I do think that Brady has that killer instinct that Dalton needs to develop though.

To act like comparing Dalton to Brady is an insult to Brady is foolish to me. We can compare them in the regular season.

Just not in the Playoffs, cause we have a shitty coach and our whole team plays bad in the playoffs except our Defense
last year in the Steeler game.

Ugh.  So many things wrong with post.  Where to begin?

[bengalguy71]

This is the whole reason why they have the Andy Dalton thread.

We've been hearing this same banter for 6 years now.

It's really getting old and I hope mods step up and get this where it belongs!

[*SHRacerX*]

Tom Brady
G ATT COMP %
2006 New England Patriots 16 516 319 61.8 3,526 24 12 87.9
2005 New England Patriots 16 530 334 63.0 4,110 26 14 92.3
2004 New England Patriots 16 474 288 60.8 3,692 28 14 92.6
2003 New England Patriots 16 527 317 60.2 3,620 23 12 85.9
2002 New England Patriots 16 601 373 62.1 3,764 28 14 85.7
2001 New England Patriots 15 413 264 63.9 2,843 18 12 86.5
AVERAGE FOR 6 years: 61.97% 3592 24.5 13 88.48

Andy Dalton
2016 Cincinnati Bengals 16 364 563 64.7 4,209 18 8 91.8
2015 Cincinnati Bengals 13 255 386 66.1 3,250 25 7 106.2
2014 Cincinnati Bengals 16 309 481 64.2 3,398 19 17 83.5
2013 Cincinnati Bengals 16 363 586 61.9 4,293 33 20 88.8
2012 Cincinnati Bengals 16 329 528 62.3 3,669 27 16 87.4
2011 Cincinnati Bengals 16 300 516 58.1 3,398 20 13 80.4
Average for 6 years: 62.83% 3,793 23.67 13.5 89.68

So, at the same point of their careers, Dalton only trails Brady on TD average by less than 1 TD per season (he did play two fewer games in that time as well), and has .5 more INTs per season. Dalton does have a slightly higher completion %, yards per season average, and quarterback rating.

Do I think Dalton is the next Tom Brady? No. Do I think he is as good as Tom is now? No. Do I think he has had a really good start to his career and isn't deserving of crap like "they shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence"? Hell, yes.

Dalton plays in a MUCH tougher conference, didn't have a year to learn on the sidelines, and has not had the talent nor coaching afforded to Brady. We won't even bother with officiating (Tuck Rule, anyone?). Let's remember that he has been in the league six years and the needle has pointed up after almost every season, despite losing two of his OC during that timeframe.

You can give me all the hate you wan't for defending Dalton, and I am sure the number of Super Bowls Brady has won will be thrown at me next but let's not forget the defense that Brady had when he first entered the league and the coach that he has always had. It still makes me laugh when announcers say "Brady really doesn't like pressure right in his face" and are quick to point out his struggles in those situations, but that is what Dalton has faced pretty much every snap of his career.

The bottom line is: Andy Dalton is capable of winning a championship here.

[Von Cichlid]

(01-16-2017, 03:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Dalton is a better deep passer than Brady believe it or not. 

I was going to call BS on this but looking at regular season completions of over 40 yds since 2011, Dalton has 68 whereas Brady has 58.  I would not have guessed that.  However, one does have to consider the fact that Dalton had AJ Green all those years and Brady did not have Moss in those same years.