You drafted a Guard in the 1st Round...he developed...now Pay Zeitler!

[Sled21]

(01-19-2017, 03:33 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This FA is weak as far as Center and if we drafted a Center in the 2nd or 3rd to compete with Bodine and it is an honest
competition we win either way. Most likely the new guy wins but if not, Bodine improves with the competition.

"Somebody call me???"...

[Yojimbo]

(01-19-2017, 01:58 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...and we'll let him walk...and then need a Tackle, Guard, and Center on the offensive line...and that's IF they can retain Whitworth who will be 35. We'll have probably the worst offensive line in the NFL in the scenario where Zeitler walks.

If your concern is about signing every player to a team friendly contract...it's not going to happen.

I'm not making any decisions for the team. I'm being pragmatic because I'm basing my opinion on the team's history. If it were my decision we would never be in his situation to begin with because I would never have drafted Bodine or Ced and Whit would already be franchised because he's worth it and it essentially a one year at a time deal and Mack would be a Bengal.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-19-2017, 03:44 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I'm not making any decisions for the team. I'm being pragmatic because I'm basing my opinion on the team's history. If it were my decision we would never be in his situation to begin with because I would never have drafted Bodine or Ced and Whit would already be franchised because he's worth it and it essentially a one year at a time deal and Mack would be a Bengal.

You don't build a championship team by letting your best players walk in free agency because they are too expensive...especially when you don't sign mid to high-end external free agents.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-19-2017, 05:16 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You don't build a championship team by letting your best players walk in free agency because they are too expensive...especially when you don't sign mid to high-end external free agents.

And you don't build a championship team by giving slightly better-than-average players $10m/yr.

Zeitler is nowhere near their "best players".

[bambino5130]

Dunlap

(01-19-2017, 05:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And you don't build a championship team by giving slightly better-than-average players $10m/yr.

Zeitler is nowhere near their "best players".

Ok, lets Name Bengals who are in the top 6 in the league at their position.

AJ
Geno
Whit
Burfict
Dunlap
Zeitler


IMO, he is probably the 4th-6th best player on this team.......... but nowhere near their best players? ......
I guess you and I are watching a different game.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-19-2017, 05:50 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: Dunlap

Ok, lets Name Bengals who are in the top 6 in the league at their position.

AJ
Geno
Whit
Burfict
Dunlap
Zeitler


IMO, he is probably the 4th-6th best player on this team.......... but nowhere near their best players? ......
I guess you and I are watching a different game.

Except for the fact that I don't buy that he's the 6th best guard in the NFL.

If you're basing that 6th best stuff off PFF, you need to take that with a grain of salt, man. They named the Bengals the 13th best OL in the NFL in 2016, I believe.

If you watched games and thought that they were the 13th best OL while being incapable of both run or pass blocking, then you're right, you and I are watching a different game.

[Yojimbo]

(01-19-2017, 05:16 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You don't build a championship team by letting your best players walk in free agency because they are too expensive...especially when you don't sign mid to high-end external free agents.

When has MB ever tried to build for a championship? His philosophy is extend guys before they hit FA and draft replacements to keep costs down. Change is bad and being "competitive" is good enough.

[bambino5130]

(01-19-2017, 05:54 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Except for the fact that I don't buy that he's the 6th best guard in the NFL.

If you're basing that 6th best stuff off PFF, you need to take that with a grain of salt, man. They named the Bengals the 13th best OL in the NFL in 2016, I believe.

If you watched games and thought that they were the 13th best OL while being incapable of both run or pass blocking, then you're right, you and I are watching a different game.

I am not going off PFF, really just ballparking to get some type of assemblance of our best players and justify if they

should get paid or not according to are they some of the best at their position.

I totally agree with you that the line was garbage this year, and the only reason they are 13th is because they padded their offensive line stats the last couple of weeks. Realistically that ranking should be a lot worse.  I have said that in most posts, but most of that was due to the two lumps of shat on both sides of Zietler, and Boling to some extent.

If you want to improve the line, you might want to start with RT, C, LG, instead in that order. Letting Zeitler walk would be a huge mistake. He didn't give up a sack two years ago, few last year, hasn't missed a game since drafted

So how far would you drop Kevin Zeitler?  I would put him somewhere in between Decastro and the GB Guards.

Yanda

Martin
Decsatro
Osemele
Iupati
Lang
Sitton
Mathis
Incognito
Mewhort

[BengalsRocker]

(01-19-2017, 06:23 PM)bambino5130 Wrote: I am not going off PFF, really just ballparking to get some type of assemblance of our best players and justify if they

should get paid or not according to are they some of the best at their position.

I totally agree with you that the line was garbage this year, and the only reason they are 13th is because they padded their offensive line stats the last couple of weeks. Realistically that ranking should be a lot worse.  I have said that in most posts, but most of that was due to the two lumps of shat on both sides of Zietler, and Boling to some extent.

If you want to improve the line, you might want to start with RT, C, LG, instead in that order. Letting Zeitler walk would be a huge mistake. He didn't give up a sack two years ago, few last year, hasn't missed a game since drafted

So how far would you drop Kevin Zeitler?  I would put him somewhere in between Decastro and the GB Guards.

Yanda

Martin
Decsatro
Osemele
Iupati
Lang
Sitton
Mathis
Incognito
Mewhort

The better question is...  who the hell is better at RG on the roster?

Then go on from there.

Zeitler isn't the best at his position in the league but does anyone have confidence they'll get a better FA than him?

That's banking a lot on the current back ups or the draft.

I for one think that DreK and Zeitler are the only guys they drafted that should stay.

They are proven competent starters as this point.

That doesn't necessarily mean I think they're world beaters in the league.

It's just being realistic about who they could lock up in starter positions.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-19-2017, 03:41 PM)Sled21 Wrote: "Somebody call me???"...

TOTH!!! :andy:

[Burma]

(01-19-2017, 03:41 PM)Sled21 Wrote: "Somebody call me???"...

I have watched several of his games so far and not really impressed. Not disappointed either, but it really is a bad C class.   Kentucky uses a zone blocking scheme and that make it hard to get a feel for how he does when face with a NT or in straight man to man drive blocking.  He moves well, but on contact he just seals, I don't see him latching on much and getting movement.  Again, it's what his coaches want, so maybe he can do it and we just don't see it.  

http://insidethepylon.com/pylon-u/teams-ncaa/division-ia-fbs/sec/kentucky-wildcats/2016/08/11/kentucky-wildcats-blocking-schemes/

bambino5130 Wrote: Wrote:If you want to improve the line, you might want to start with RT, C, LG, instead in that order. Letting Zeitler walk would be a huge mistake. He didn't give up a sack two years ago, few last year, hasn't missed a game since drafted

Exactly. You have nearly 60 mill in cap space with just 2 cuts (Maualuga, and Pacman). Letting Zeitler walk would be moronic. Worst case scenario is you tag him for @$14 mill.  Why would you put your franchise QB behind Bodine with a rookie or anyone worse than Zeitler to help him out.  That is simply insane.

[Trademark]

I fully expect Zeitler to leave because we have a doofus owner

[BengalChris]

(01-19-2017, 01:45 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You're giving the Bengals.com PR spin answer:

We have the 11th most cap space in the NFL...and teams with less cap space than us will find a way to structure a contract in a way to sign Whitworth or Zeitler away from us.

And that doesn't even touch on the possibility of waiving MJ, Maualuga, Jones or some of the other usual suspects.

They can retain both Whitworth and Zeitler if they want to.

I'm giving you the answer you will be getting from the front office in about two and half months from now.

Cut Maualuga? Cut MJ? Are you talking about a Bengals team from some other alternate universe?

Maybe in that alternate universe baby Mikey Brown was aborted at birth and we hired Belichick after he was fired in Cleveland.

In this universe the front office will stick with model model and let Marv hang around awhile longer.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-19-2017, 10:37 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: So the bengals OL was the biggest downfall last year and we want to let arguably the best one walk because he bengals don't want to pay fair market value? 

This has the makings of Steinbach all over again.  Bengals signed Wilkie Anderson who fell off the proverbial cliff while Steinbach went on to play at a pro owl level for about 5 more years before injuries caught up.  

I'm not saying that whit is Anderson, but he is much closer to the end than the beginning.  

Also, with Andy on his 15m/year they can afford to invest more into the offensive line to offset the difference.  Andy plus Zietler is cheaper than some QBs alone.

The offensive line's downfall last year was because they stuck with Ogbuehi when it was obvious he was not ready. Whit should be extended two years, not a five or six year deal like Zeitler would likely be pursuing.  Whit is also one of the best in the league, and his play did not decline at all last year.  

If the Bengals can draft a replacement for Zeitler who may end up a far better player, while saving nearly $8 million per season?  It is a risk, but if Zeitler wants top Guard money I think there is better dollars spent on FA signings elsewhere.  

Andy's contract definitely figures in to the team's ability to sign other FAs, but, again, I am not sure I see value in signing Zeitler for that kind of money.  

[THE PISTONS]

(01-20-2017, 07:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The offensive line's downfall last year was because they stuck with Ogbuehi when it was obvious he was not ready. Whit should be extended two years, not a five or six year deal like Zeitler would likely be pursuing.  Whit is also one of the best in the league, and his play did not decline at all last year.  

If the Bengals can draft a replacement for Zeitler who may end up a far better player, while saving nearly $8 million per season?  It is a risk, but if Zeitler wants top Guard money I think there is better dollars spent on FA signings elsewhere.  

Andy's contract definitely figures in to the team's ability to sign other FAs, but, again, I am not sure I see value in signing Zeitler for that kind of money.  

And the salary cap will likely go up every year...and like you said Whitworth will come off the books totally in a year or 2. It should be doable.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Pay day man. Cut Maualuga and pac man and we will save lots of money when Peko goes and go ahead cut Michael Johnson. I know this is just a dream. But we can easily improve this team this off season.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-19-2017, 05:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: And you don't build a championship team by giving slightly better-than-average players $10m/yr.

Zeitler is nowhere near their "best players".

He's the best Guard in free agency. His play is comparable to DeCastro who signed for $11 million a year.

[Hoofhearted]

(01-20-2017, 07:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The offensive line's downfall last year was because they stuck with Ogbuehi when it was obvious he was not ready. Whit should be extended two years, not a five or six year deal like Zeitler would likely be pursuing.  Whit is also one of the best in the league, and his play did not decline at all last year.  

If the Bengals can draft a replacement for Zeitler who may end up a far better player, while saving nearly $8 million per season?  It is a risk, but if Zeitler wants top Guard money I think there is better dollars spent on FA signings elsewhere.  

Andy's contract definitely figures in to the team's ability to sign other FAs, but, again, I am not sure I see value in signing Zeitler for that kind of money.  

He'll will be making two mill more a year than he is now. Is spending two mil more on a solid guard - that you developed and preach keeping your own - that bad of an idea?

With the lack of signing big name FA, it scares the crap if they try to fill the void there. And with PA still here, drafting one seems risky as well. I think you pay the man and try to save that two mil in other areas of the team.  

[Hoofhearted]

(01-18-2017, 10:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm not so sure Zeitler really developed. I don't know if I see him as any better than when he was drafted. He is what he was then, a bit above average player.

Not bad to have, and you need plenty of them on your team to make a good team, but it doesn't mean you should be paying them $9-10m/yr.

I just don't see Zeitler as a $9-10m/yr player. He doesn't take over any games, he doesn't dominate anyone. I don't know if it's him, or coaching (probably at least in part coaching), but he never became that dominate blocker in the run game that they expected him to become when he was drafted. Honestly, I think a healthy Boling is a better guard than Zeitler.

In the last two years, he's given up 3 sacks and 3 holding calls. He was rated by PFF as our top run blocking lineman this year. 

I also think if we put an unknown there, and teams are able to get constant pressure in AD's face....his short, quick throws would be was less effective and that would be disastrous for this already struggling offense.

[Socal Bengals fan]

He's rated by Walter's Draft as the number 3 overall player in free agency this year. So yeah Zeitler is a bad mofo. Sign the guy.