You drafted a Guard in the 1st Round...he developed...now Pay Zeitler!

[CanadianBengal]

Dalton struggles with pressure up the middle. That is why Bodine has really hurt us. The elite QBs can move around in pocket and keep eyes downfield. Dalton can't. He gets flushed quickly. Therefore solid G play is really important. The poor running game falls more on lack of decisiveness of Hill. Gio and Rex hit whole quick and got decent yardage. Pay Zeits. Why roll over money for future extensions from this year and create holes.

I get it that you can't afford to keep everyone. The key is who you choose to spend money on. 4 mil on Mauluagepa and 7 mil on Adam Jones doesn't seem like a a good use of cap space. Zeits has been very good every year. So has Whit. Both have earned fair contracts. Some team is going to pay them. Why shouldn't it be the Bengals. They don't sign FAs from other teams. They need to keep their own and address other holes with early draft picks.

[Jpoore]

(01-20-2017, 04:35 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: Dalton struggles with pressure up the middle. That is why Bodine has really hurt us. The elite QBs can move around in pocket and keep eyes downfield. Dalton can't. He gets flushed quickly. Therefore solid G play is really important. The poor running game falls more on lack of decisiveness of Hill. Gio and Rex hit whole quick and got decent yardage. Pay Zeits. Why roll over money for future extensions from this year and create holes.

I get it that you can't afford to keep everyone. The key is who you choose to spend money on. 4 mil on Mauluagepa and 7 mil on Adam Jones doesn't seem like a a good use of cap space. Zeits has been very good every year. So has Whit. Both have earned fair contracts. Some team is going to pay them. Why shouldn't it be the Bengals. They don't sign FAs from other teams. They need to keep their own and address other holes with early draft picks.

cut malaluga and Johnson keep pacman too much dead money plus u don't know if we will keep Dre k. Draft a Center like elflien and retain zeitler makes a very solid front 3 with boling. 

[Derrick]

(01-20-2017, 06:20 PM)Jpoore Wrote: cut malaluga and Johnson keep pacman too much dead money plus u don't know if we will keep Dre k. Draft a Center like elflien and retain zeitler makes a very solid front 3 with boling. 

this is my opinion too.

[Burma]

(01-20-2017, 06:20 PM)Jpoore Wrote: cut malaluga and Johnson keep pacman too much dead money plus u don't know if we will keep Dre k. Draft a Center like elflien and retain zeitler makes a very solid front 3 with boling. 

(01-20-2017, 06:57 PM)Derrick Wrote: this is my opinion too.

Cutting Rey Maualuga would incur 0 (zero) in dead cap space and also net $3.67 mill in cap space.  So that is really a no brainer.

Cutting Johnson would have a dead money cost of $2.25 mill or only 1.125 if cut after June 1st. That would free up $2.875 or $4 mill depending on when the cut is made.  Ideally you would draft a replacement and then keep Johnson till at least June 1st to give the team time to assess the new guy and also to save cash. Maybe you don't even cut MJ till next season, which I think is more likely.

As to cutting Pacman; you have said it costs too much in dead money, which is not true. Cutting Pacman would incur a paltry $1.33 mill in dead money but net over $6 mill in cap space this season.  Also you’re missing a nuance in cutting Pacman and resigning Dre K. That is you work on a new contract with Dre K and in that contract you have available to you the extra $6 mill you would get when you cut Pacman, assuming Dre K resigns. You don’t cut Pacman first then try to resign Dre K.   

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-20-2017, 04:35 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: Dalton struggles with pressure up the middle. That is why Bodine has really hurt us. The elite QBs can move around in pocket and keep eyes downfield. Dalton can't. He gets flushed quickly. Therefore solid G play is really important. The poor running game falls more on lack of decisiveness of Hill. Gio and Rex hit whole quick and got decent yardage. Pay Zeits. Why roll over money for future extensions from this year and create holes.

I get it that you can't afford to keep everyone. The key is who you choose to spend money on. 4 mil on Mauluagepa and 7 mil on Adam Jones doesn't seem like a a good use of cap space. Zeits has been very good every year. So has Whit. Both have earned fair contracts. Some team is going to pay them. Why shouldn't it be the Bengals. They don't sign FAs from other teams. They need to keep their own and address other holes with early draft picks.

ALL quarterbacks struggle against pressure up the middle. That's why everyone wants to create it. Do you not remember 2013 when the Bengals beat Rodgers and Brady?

Brady put up a 52.2 QB Rating, and Rodgers put up a 64.5 QB Rating in those games.

Why? Because no quarterback, regardless of how elite they are can handle constant pressure up the middle and be successful, and the Bengals did just that.

Cracks me up when people try to make it a Dalton problem. It's a quarterback problem league-wide. It's why other teams try not to have garbage play at center, including ones who are not constantly snapping the ball at ankle height.

- - - - - - -

That said, Zeitler has not been very good every year. If he was very good every year, he'd be a Pro Bowler/All-Pro and the Bengals would actually have a legit running game.

A draft pick (or Westerman) can replace him before spending $10m/yr on a Guard.

Heck, he struggled a pretty good amount in 2016. People have been saying "but look at the people he has around him!" to which I reply.. if you're going to pay a guard $10m/yr, shouldn't that not matter? If he needs good players next to him in order to be good, how can he be worth that much?

[Burma]

(01-20-2017, 09:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: ALL quarterbacks struggle against pressure up the middle. That's why everyone wants to create it. Do you not remember 2013 when the Bengals beat Rodgers and Brady?

Exactly, you might be able to get by with subpar tackles and a nimble enough QB, but no QB can consistently be successful with pressure up the middle.  With pressure up the middle you cant climb the pocket, or step into their throws. It affects everything. 

Check out this video.  It does a good job of explaining "climbing the pocket".  It's short but useful.

http://insidethepylon.com/football-101/glossary-football-101/2015/08/20/itp-glossary-climbing-the-pocket/

[Jpoore]

(01-20-2017, 09:17 PM)Burma Wrote: Cutting Rey Maualuga would incur 0 (zero) in dead cap space and also net $3.67 mill in cap space.  So that is really a no brainer.

Cutting Johnson would have a dead money cost of $2.25 mill or only 1.125 if cut after June 1st. That would free up $2.875 or $4 mill depending on when the cut is made.  Ideally you would draft a replacement and then keep Johnson till at least June 1st to give the team time to assess the new guy and also to save cash. Maybe you don't even cut MJ till next season, which I think is more likely.

As to cutting Pacman; you have said it costs too much in dead money, which is not true. Cutting Pacman would incur a paltry $1.33 mill in dead money but net over $6 mill in cap space this season.  Also you’re missing a nuance in cutting Pacman and resigning Dre K. That is you work on a new contract with Dre K and in that contract you have available to you the extra $6 mill you would get when you cut Pacman, assuming Dre K resigns. You don’t cut Pacman first then try to resign Dre K.   

sorry there was a lot of things i did not clarify. We should keep Micheal Johnson as a backup I want to cut tj and put bodine as backup center. Only works if we draft a guy like elflien or orlosky. As far as cutting pacman we never like having any dead money and generally have close to none so adding over a million I don't see it. Also ur assuming Dre k wants to resign here. I think he does but on the off chance he wants to sign wherever they pay him the most, lest say we cut pacman and offered Dre k 8.5 million a year for 5 years. U don't think that someone will over him a Josh Norman type contract? Bc I think that there are desperate teams out there that would. That's why it's not worth the risk of cutting pacman imo. If we did and lost Dre K due to Norman type contract we would be dealing with wjiii, Shaw, and Russell as starting corners with no depth. Not listing dennard bc he's always hurt. Would u trust that secondary? Obviously this is worst case but entirely plausible.

[Jpoore]

(01-20-2017, 09:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: ALL quarterbacks struggle against pressure up the middle. That's why everyone wants to create it. Do you not remember 2013 when the Bengals beat Rodgers and Brady?

Brady put up a 52.2 QB Rating, and Rodgers put up a 64.5 QB Rating in those games.

Why? Because no quarterback, regardless of how elite they are can handle constant pressure up the middle and be successful, and the Bengals did just that.

Cracks me up when people try to make it a Dalton problem. It's a quarterback problem league-wide. It's why other teams try not to have garbage play at center, including ones who are not constantly snapping the ball at ankle height.

- - - - - - -

That said, Zeitler has not been very good every year. If he was very good every year, he'd be a Pro Bowler/All-Pro and the Bengals would actually have a legit running game.

A draft pick (or Westerman) can replace him before spending $10m/yr on a Guard.

Heck, he struggled a pretty good amount in 2016. People have been saying "but look at the people he has around him!" to which I reply.. if you're going to pay a guard $10m/yr, shouldn't that not matter? If he needs good players next to him in order to be good, how can he be worth that much?

Its a good argument but I disagree. U need to have good players around u on the oline more than anywhere else. Bc u have a turnstile at c and RT ur having to help them out a lot and not paying attention to ur own man as much bc he worried about if they're gonna be able to keep their blocks or if u need to help out. And as far as pressure up the middle I think it affects most qbs unless they're Phillip rivers, Big Ben etc. The really tall qbs. And as far as westerman he must really suck sorry to say but it's what I feel. They played boling with one shoulder almost all year rather than play westerman. And when he was out they played Johnson over westerman. I would resign zeitler and Whit and draft a center to get our ISO running game going.

[Burma]

(01-20-2017, 11:40 PM)Jpoore Wrote: sorry there was a lot of things i did not clarify. We should keep Micheal Johnson as a backup I want to cut tj and put bodine as backup center. Only works if we draft a guy like elflien or orlosky. As far as cutting pacman we never like having any dead money and generally have close to none so adding over a million I don't see it. Also ur assuming Dre k wants to resign here. I think he does but on the off chance he wants to sign wherever they pay him the most, lest say we cut pacman and offered Dre k 8.5 million a year for 5 years. U don't think that someone will over him a Josh Norman type contract? Bc I think that there are desperate teams out there that would. That's why it's not worth the risk of cutting pacman imo. If we did and lost Dre K due to Norman type contract we would be dealing with wjiii, Shaw, and Russell as starting corners with no depth. Not listing dennard bc he's always hurt. Would u trust that secondary? Obviously this is worst case but entirely plausible.

Gotcha.  Keeping MJ until June 1st at the very least is the best bet. I don't imagine they cut him, he's only under contract through 2018 anyways. I am assuming Dre K wants back, this free agent class of CB does work in our favor. He's in the bottom middle of a big group of tier 2 guys. He might find fewer suitors than imagined, so maybe that lends to returning. But as to cutting Pacman, yeah, do not do that until Dre K signs his new contract. I think even re signing Dre K. they do need to look at a later round corner.  Channing Stribling would be a great pick up.  CBS has him as a late 4th now. But that is probably going to improve.  He is very solid, and wildly under rated.  Same build as Dre, but better fluidity and man coverage skills.

Dead Money:  we have more than you would think.  Not a terrible amount of course, but more than I thought.  Cutting Nugent triggered a $1.5 mill hit so we know they are willing to consider that. The total dead money going into 2017 the Bengals have 38 players triggering dead money totaling $3,464,937.00.  Given Pacman's history off issues, I would not be surprised to see him go.  

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/cap/

[Jpoore]

(01-21-2017, 12:32 AM)Burma Wrote: Gotcha.  Keeping MJ until June 1st at the very least is the best bet. I don't imagine they cut him, he's only under contract through 2018 anyways. I am assuming Dre K wants back, this free agent class of CB does work in our favor. He's in the bottom middle of a big group of tier 2 guys. He might find fewer suitors than imagined, so maybe that lends to returning. But as to cutting Pacman, yeah, do not do that until Dre K signs his new contract. I think even re signing Dre K. they do need to look at a later round corner.  Channing Stribling would be a great pick up.  CBS has him as a late 4th now. But that is probably going to improve.  He is very solid, and wildly under rated.  Same build as Dre, but better fluidity and man coverage skills.

Dead Money:  we have more than you would think.  Not a terrible amount of course, but more than I thought.  Cutting Nugent triggered a $1.5 mill hit so we know they are willing to consider that. The total dead money going into 2017 the Bengals have 38 players triggering dead money totaling $3,464,937.00.  Given Pacman's history off issues, I would not be surprised to see him go.  

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cincinnati-bengals/cap/

didn't realize it was that much. And yeah we do need another corner although Russell could end up being good.dennards got talent but he's a bust he's never healthy.  Just saw a mock that saw us taking lattimmore at 9 as a buckeye fan would love it but as a Bengal fan I would hate it. He's the best press corner I have seen his ceiling is Darell Revis his floor is super high as well but I want a day one starter. I do not want a corner in the top 10. I want a wr, a lb, hell any starter that will start day one but a corner will not. If Whit and zeitler resign to team friendly deals, cut pacman resign Dre K to 5 year 35 million 25% guaranteed and would love to sign bouye to a 4 year 20 million. That would give us a starting secondary of Dre  k, bouye, and wjiii with Shaw and dennard as backups. Wishful thinking though.

[phil413]

I don't think anyone has to sell the fan base on how important keeping Zeitler is. The chemistry, top 10 guard in his prime, yada yada he's the dude. The question is will Mikey and Co. pay him. None of us have that answer, but if they make the mistake of letting him walk or someone grossly overspends then they really need to sign a stud OL. I've said I could really see them letting him leave as the highest paid guard and sign a good RT like Reiff or Wagner, but I hope I'm wrong and they pony up for the guy.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-18-2017, 03:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: What sucks is PA put us in this conundrum with picking Og in the first and picking Bodine.

We need to keep Whitworth and even though i want Dre back we probably will not keep all three.

Dre worries me cause he might of finally just played up to his talent but he might fall back off if he
gets rewarded. He has that kind of mentality to me a bit like Adam Jones who has mentored him.

Whit and Zeit coming back would be the best for us, then sign a vet OT in FA and draft a Center in
the 2nd or 3rd round. Use Bodine as a backup G/C and coach Westerman as the other backup.

Fisher and Og can learn behind the vets another year, Fisher might push for a starting spot.

Hard to place all the blame on PA when he's not the one pulling the trigger in the draft room.

[Hammerstripes]

(01-21-2017, 12:55 AM)Jpoore Wrote: didn't realize it was that much. And yeah we do need another corner although Russell could end up being good.dennards got talent but he's a bust he's never healthy.  Just saw a mock that saw us taking lattimmore at 9 as a buckeye fan would love it but as a Bengal fan I would hate it. He's the best press corner I have seen his ceiling is Darell Revis his floor is super high as well but I want a day one starter. I do not want a corner in the top 10. I want a wr, a lb, hell any starter that will start day one but a corner will not. If Whit and zeitler resign to team friendly deals, cut pacman resign Dre K to 5 year 35 million 25% guaranteed and would love to sign bouye to a 4 year 20 million. That would give us a starting secondary of Dre  k, bouye, and wjiii with Shaw and dennard as backups. Wishful thinking though.

We shouldn't need another corner.  Good Lord, we have Dennard (1st rounder), WJ3 (1st rounder), Shaw, Jones, Russell.  At some point you have to let those guys play.  If we re-sign Dre (which we should) then we are set.  However, there is no way in the world you are going to see Dre or Bouye sign for less than 9-10 million per year.  That's the going rate for good CBs in this market.

[Jpoore]

(01-21-2017, 02:14 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: We shouldn't need another corner.  Good Lord, we have Dennard (1st rounder), WJ3 (1st rounder), Shaw, Jones, Russell.  At some point you have to let those guys play.  If we re-sign Dre (which we should) then we are set.  However, there is no way in the world you are going to see Dre or Bouye sign for less than 9-10 million per year.  That's the going rate for good CBs in this market.

yeah I know but we offered z 5.5 million per hoping he will take 7.5-8. that would help us. Dennard is a bust not talent wise but hes never healthy. I mean at all. and when he does play in 2016 he allowed a 86 percent completion rate into his area. jones is old and showed it in 2016. Russell is an unknown and a rookie basically as far as playing time. I like sha but hes a 4th corner in my mind. I'm hoping bouye is not as sought after due to fact u have quite a few great corners in this fa and this year was really his breakout year. u have butler, trumaine Johnson, logan ryan, stephon gillmore, prince amukamara, morris Claiborne, deshawn shead, etc. but lets be clear. I do not want to draft another corner in the top of this draft.

[THE Bigzoman]

Agreed.

Bengals need to realize that a great O-line is a must, especially if they're high on Dalton. Look at the 4 teams in the playoffs right now:


1. Pittsburgh: Fantastic O-Line. 2 Pro bowlers and everyone else above average. IDK if you've noticed, but David Decastro is a monster.
2. Atlanta: Fantastic O-line. Notice how Atlanta shriveled up after their 2012 run? Look at their O-lines over the last few years. Nabbing Alex Mack, developing Jake Matthews, and acquiring average guards made a huge difference.
3. New England: Not great, but good enough to get the job done. I thought highly of the Bengals' O-line until this year. Interestingly enough, Dalton has the 2nd quickest release in football (second only to Brady). I think Brady's release, like Dalton, masks a lot of the inefficiencies of their front 7.
4. Green Bay. Look at how much time Rodgers has had in the pocket when they started their hot streak. Nuff said.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-20-2017, 09:44 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: ALL quarterbacks struggle against pressure up the middle. That's why everyone wants to create it. Do you not remember 2013 when the Bengals beat Rodgers and Brady?

Brady put up a 52.2 QB Rating, and Rodgers put up a 64.5 QB Rating in those games.

Why? Because no quarterback, regardless of how elite they are can handle constant pressure up the middle and be successful, and the Bengals did just that.

Cracks me up when people try to make it a Dalton problem. It's a quarterback problem league-wide. It's why other teams try not to have garbage play at center, including ones who are not constantly snapping the ball at ankle height.

- - - - - - -

That said, Zeitler has not been very good every year. If he was very good every year, he'd be a Pro Bowler/All-Pro and the Bengals would actually have a legit running game.

A draft pick (or Westerman) can replace him before spending $10m/yr on a Guard.

Heck, he struggled a pretty good amount in 2016. People have been saying "but look at the people he has around him!" to which I reply.. if you're going to pay a guard $10m/yr, shouldn't that not matter? If he needs good players next to him in order to be good, how can he be worth that much?

All great points, reps. :andy:

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-21-2017, 02:11 AM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Hard to place all the blame on PA when he's not the one pulling the trigger in the draft room.

Bodine was his pick though. Shows what he knows about Center play.

Plus it is his job to coach up the players he gets regardless if he picks them.

It is not like PA was given UDFA scrubs. Whit was a 2nd rounder, Boling was a 4th rounder, Bodine we traded up for on PA's bidding,
Zeitler was a 1st rounder, Andre Smith was a 1st rounder, Og was a 1st rounder, Fisher was a 2nd rounder etc.

Boling was the only success from the mid rounds and he even said PA does not coach in-season.

Pathetic. This dude needs to go..

[muskiesfan]

I want to keep Zeitler too, but it's all about the money. I just can't see paying him north of $8 million. $6-7 million a year would be ideal, but 8 is about the cap. I understand he's young, I understand he's in his prime, and I understand that overall he has played well. However, he's not a top tier guard. Blame the C and RT all you want, but his play was bad this year. Paying him top guard money ($10 million or close to) doesn't make any sense.

I know a lot of people would rather keep Zeitler than Whitworth, but I'd much rather keep Whitworth and Kirkpatrick than Zeitler. While there is money, I just don't see the Bengals keeping all 3 and the only way I see them keeping 2 is if Zeitler is the odd man out. Now the team could make some cuts and free up additional money to sign these guys and improve the roster, but we know that's not going to happen. The Bengals are one of the best at honoring contracts, but they do it to a fault.

[THE PISTONS]

(01-21-2017, 04:26 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: I want to keep Zeitler too, but it's all about the money. I just can't see paying him north of $8 million. $6-7 million a year would be ideal, but 8 is about the cap. I understand he's young, I understand he's in his prime, and I understand that overall he has played well. However, he's not a top tier guard. Blame the C and RT all you want, but his play was bad this year. Paying him top guard money ($10 million or close to) doesn't make any sense.

I know a lot of people would rather keep Zeitler than Whitworth, but I'd much rather keep Whitworth and Kirkpatrick than Zeitler. While there is money, I just don't see the Bengals keeping all 3 and the only way I see them keeping 2 is if Zeitler is the odd man out. Now the team could make some cuts and free up additional money to sign these guys and improve the roster, but we know that's not going to happen. The Bengals are one of the best at honoring contracts, but they do it to a fault.

And the Steelers paid DeCastro $11 million. You're not going to get an elite Guard for $6-7 million a year.

The Bengals should be able to keep Whitworth, Zeitler, AND Kirkpatrick with their $46 million in cap space. Zeitler and Kirkpatrick made around $7.5 million this year...and Whitworth made $10 million. They should fit in?

Why save money by not signing Zeitler? We don't sign high priced external free agents. If it's to retain some future player...they'll just let them walk if they think they ask for so much.

The goal is to win...not worry about if Mike Brown got a good value or paid more than you think a guy is worth.

[muskiesfan]

(01-22-2017, 07:09 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And the Steelers paid DeCastro $11 million. You're not going to get an elite Guard for $6-7 million a year.

The Bengals should be able to keep Whitworth, Zeitler, AND Kirkpatrick with their $46 million in cap space. Zeitler and Kirkpatrick made around $7.5 million this year...and Whitworth made $10 million. They should fit in?

Why save money by not signing Zeitler? We don't sign high priced external free agents. If it's to retain some future player...they'll just let them walk if they think they ask for so much.

The goal is to win...not worry about if Mike Brown got a good value or paid more than you think a guy is worth.

Zeitler is nowhere near DeCastro in proiduction. Boling outperformed Zeitler this year so why should Zeitler get almost double what Boling makes?

I understand wanting to keep a young guy like Zeitler. However, he is not worth breaking the bank over. I get that the team should be able to sign all 3, but why overpay on Zeitler? I'd have no issue giving him big money if his play deserved it, but it doesn't. $8 million would be my absolute max. If he balks, he walks.