In All Fairness To Cincinnati....

[kevin]

....it is not New York. Baseball does not have the revenue sharing Football has. The Bengals are in something that gives them more of a chance to win than the Reds. Cincinnati is not New York or Los Angeles or one of these big cities. Yes, the Reds are the first pro baseball team ever back in 1800's. That cuts no ice now. So Reds did have to dump big contracts. It's business and entertainment. Even in TV and Movies stars get paid money, but then the company must make even more than what they paid out. You do not spend more than you bring in. New York can spend a ton because with all those people they are going to sell tickets each and every game. Filling the seats is no problem in New York as it is Cincinnati. Same with other big cities full of people. So, when you are paying the players more than you are making, you sell off. Million Dollar contracts are why Cincinnati will never have a Big Red Machine again. If they had to pay Bench, Rose, Morgan, Perez and the rest what they were worth they could never have had that team. Proof is Rose and Foster leaving for the millions once there were million involved. So smaller Cincinnati will have to be a small market team. Some say you can win being small market, but the payrolls say different. So the Reds had some good young players who made play-offs and fell short. Then these young players became veterans wanting Big Money. One by one we see these players traded, not because they were bad players, but because these minor league players we get in return are cheaper. The real blame lies with MLB not being like the NFL. So, Reds loading up with youth and who knows, maybe someday play-offs before they become veterans and want Big Money. Then they will leave and more minor league players. A Reds owner that would spend much more than team is making in profit would be stupid.

So, after these trades 2017 looks as hopeless as 2016 and 2015. Maybe if Billy Hamilton can hit though. Imagine if he could bat .300 and steal bases leading off like Lou Brock. Maybe Votto knocks him in. Maybe these young pitchers get it together and win in 2017. Maybe the youth movement takes off again. Or maybe it doesn't. Cincinnati will never have another Big Red Machine due to million dollar contracts. There will be years the young lower paid players surprise and win games. That is all there is to hope for unless someday MLB has revenue sharing like NFL. It will not happen because Yankees and all big city big money teams do not want it. It's good to be King. Right now the Cubs, Cardinals, Pirates and even Brewers out in front of Reds. Hey, Milwaukee built a stadium that never has a rain out, smart move to sell more tickets. Still, if the young pitchers catch fire, if the team plays top defense, if they get clutch hitting, if, if, if...but Groundhog Day and the movie Groundhog Day is of hope Springs eternal and redemption and salvation, just as baseball in Spring Training. Who knows, maybe the young pitchers look like Sandy Koufax or even Jack Armstrong this year. Hope Springs Eternal. The Reds not in last place from 2016. All teams start out in first place going into season. Like Groundhog Day, you start all over, yesterday's gone. another chance, another spin of the wheel for every team. I would just like to see Reds stay in it in April and May for a change. Lately those April games with Cubs, Cardinals, Pirates and Brewers are making the season over before May 1st.

[grampahol]

Meh..I'm happy to watch the Reds compete every ten years or so. I'm not and never have been stuck with the notion they have to be in the playoffs every year or they stink crowd. Anyone who has followed baseball for as long as we have knows it's cyclicle. (I'm almost sure I misspelled that) I enjoyed the last run even if they fell short and they're going to return to the top sooner or later. Look how miserable the 80s were, but 1990 came along and voila!  That was a season to remember. It's been awhile, but they'll get back on top someday. 
It might even happen before we all die of old age. 

[*michaelsean*]

I don't mind the rebuilding if it looks like you have a plan. So far I haven't figured out the plan. The BP trade has me completely confused.

[McC]

(02-20-2017, 11:15 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't mind the rebuilding if it looks like you have a plan.  So far I haven't figured out the plan.  The BP trade has me completely confused.

Well, if paying a guy 13 mil to play for another team is part of the plan, it doesn't look like a very good plan.  They still have a couple more years of Jockety undoing in store.

[xxlt]

(02-03-2017, 10:33 PM)kevin Wrote: ....it is not New York.  Baseball does not have the revenue sharing Football has.  The Bengals are in something that gives them more of a chance to win than the Reds.  Cincinnati is not New York or Los Angeles or one of these big cities. Yes, the Reds are the first pro baseball team ever back in 1800's.  That cuts no ice now.  So Reds did have to dump big contracts.  It's business and entertainment.  Even in TV and Movies stars get paid money, but then the company must make even more than what they paid out.  You do not spend more than you bring in.  New York can spend a ton because with all those people they are going to sell tickets each and every game. Filling the seats is no problem in New York as it is Cincinnati.  Same with other big cities full of people. So, when you are paying the players more than you are making, you sell off. Million Dollar contracts are why Cincinnati will never have a Big Red Machine again. If they had to pay Bench, Rose, Morgan, Perez and the rest what they were worth they could never have had that team. Proof is Rose and Foster leaving for the millions once there were million involved. So smaller Cincinnati will have to be a small market team. Some say you can win being small market, but the payrolls say different.  So the Reds had some good young players who made play-offs and fell short. Then these young players became veterans wanting Big Money.  One by one we see these players traded, not because they were bad players, but because these minor league players we get in return are cheaper. The real blame lies with MLB not being like the NFL.  So, Reds loading up with youth and who knows, maybe someday play-offs before they become veterans and want Big Money. Then they will leave and more minor league players.  A Reds owner that would spend much more than team is making in profit would be stupid.

So, after these trades 2017 looks as hopeless as 2016 and 2015.  Maybe if Billy Hamilton can hit though. Imagine if he could bat .300 and steal bases leading off like Lou Brock.  Maybe Votto knocks him in. Maybe these young pitchers get it together and win in 2017.  Maybe the youth movement takes off again.  Or maybe it doesn't.  Cincinnati will never have another Big Red Machine due to million dollar contracts.  There will be years the young lower paid players surprise and win games. That is all there is to hope for unless someday MLB has revenue sharing like NFL.  It will not happen because Yankees and all big city big money teams do not want it. It's good to be King. Right now the Cubs, Cardinals, Pirates and even Brewers out in front of Reds. Hey, Milwaukee built a stadium that never has a rain out, smart move to sell more tickets. Still, if the young pitchers catch fire, if the team plays top defense, if they get clutch hitting, if, if, if...but Groundhog Day and the movie Groundhog Day is of hope Springs eternal and redemption and salvation, just as baseball in Spring Training.  Who knows, maybe the young pitchers look like Sandy Koufax or even Jack Armstrong this year. Hope Springs Eternal.  The Reds not in last place from 2016. All teams start out in first place going into season. Like Groundhog Day, you start all over, yesterday's gone. another chance, another spin of the wheel for every team.  I would just like to see Reds stay in it in April and May for a change. Lately those April games with Cubs, Cardinals, Pirates and Brewers are making the season over before May 1st.

I am not disagreeing with anything you said.

I remember in the mid 1970's when it would be 95 degrees in July (a lot of games left on the calendar) and the LA Dodgers (second best team in Western Division the Reds played in) would come into town and Riverfront Stadium would be sold out (54,000 tickets) for ALL 4 GAMES and they would sell Standing Room Only tickets (another 500-2500 or so people). I remember the Reds beating the Boston Red Sox in 7 games in the 1975 World Series. The next year, we heard all the same stuff about New York and how a small market team just couldn't compete with the big bad money spending Yankees in the run up to the 1976 World Series. The result of that Series: Reds 4 - Yankees 0.

Since I don't consider myself ancient, I don't think of that ancient history.

So, at some level I am always amazed the Reds can't get GABP half full most nights of the year and can't field a competitive team. But, lots of factors I suppose.

[kevin]

(02-20-2017, 02:34 PM)xxlt Wrote: I am not disagreeing with anything you said.

I remember in the mid 1970's when it would be 95 degrees in July (a lot of games left on the calendar) and the LA Dodgers (second best team in Western Division the Reds played in) would come into town and Riverfront Stadium would be sold out (54,000 tickets) for ALL 4 GAMES and they would sell Standing Room Only tickets (another 500-2500 or so people). I remember the Reds beating the Boston Red Sox in 7 games in the 1975 World Series. The next year, we heard all the same stuff about New York and how a small market team just couldn't compete with the big bad money spending Yankees in the run up to the 1976 World Series. The result of that Series: Reds 4 - Yankees 0.

Since I don't consider myself ancient, I don't think of that ancient history.

So, at some level I am always amazed the Reds can't get GABP half full most nights of the year and can't field a competitive team. But, lots of factors I suppose.

I hate to tell you. but 1975 and 1976 are ancient history. Heck, Free agency hadn't taken off yet. No million dollar players. 100 grand was a big contract and Pete Rose was proud to be the first singles hitter to make 100 grand.   By that 100 loss season in what, 1982 or 1983, 1975 and 1976 seemed like ancient history to me.   I remember first Red they ever paid a million to was Mario Soto and the Cincy Fans booing him. I remember the yells of, " Hey Mario, Nobodys worth a million Mario ".   Of course Cincy fans had to start accepting the game had changed.  When a GM added a player to Reds, Marge Schott in stands told people, There is my million dollar ' N '....I'm sure you know the N word. 

So Reds are all youth movement now as a small market team. I agree that paying Phillips all this money to play for Braves is just stupid. The deal should have been you get Phillips if you pay his contract. Some good teams a second baseman away from making a run this year would have bit. Reds played their hand bad.  Any team paying his contract and I trade him for a bag of peanuts.  In return I offer Minor League contracts to some players still out there such as Tim Lincecum, Matt Capps or Jake Peavy.  I find Jumbo Diaz still on the 40 man roster a joke, he stinks.  There are a lot of free agents worth a minor league contract and look see by this awful last place Reds.  There are free agents 25 and under that Reds should be bringing in if they really are in youth movement, such as Gerardo Concepcion. There are old guys like Kyle Lohse.   In mid 80's Bob Howsom and Pete Rose came back and added some vets such as Bo Diaz, Bell, Dave Parker, Bill Gullickson, Danny Jackson until the young guys like Barry Larkin and Norm Charlton came along. They also got lucky in a kid they never planned to keep,  Chris Sabo.   The 1990 Reds had some luck, but Bob Howsom came back and started building that after the 100 loss season on of early 80's...

So 1975 and 1976 and pre million dollar players is ancient history. The Reds were NOT a small market team when they beat the NY Yankees because million dollar players hadn't happened yet. If it had, Johnny Bench would have been highest paid player ever.  Due to lower salaries Cincinnati, Pittsburg were not small market and had the best minor league young players going.  Then the dynasty Oakland Athletics sold off top players and New York Yankees had the money to buy. NY Yankees also got Cleveland's best players in Chambliss and Nettles to add to Athletics Reggie Jackson and Catfish Hunter.  Suddenly deep pocket big cities could buy a good team instead on waiting on their minor league.  Yet baseball said Reds could not add Vida Blue, yet baseball allowed Yankees to buy up Don Gullett.  MLB Headquarters at that time in New York became awful also in creating this small market division.  If Reds would have traded for Tom Seaver and added Vida Blue, the 1977 and 1978 Reds could have won. 

Looking at the players that are free agents, I fail to see why Reds don't offer more a minor league contract to come play in Spring Training Games and see what happens.  Jumbo Diaz is a waste of time. I guess fat people like that he is fat, but he can't pitch.  A circus show attraction.  Still paying Phillips to play for Braves, no Reds do not know what they are doing. You can't tell me some team needing a second baseman wouldn't have picked up that salary.  Plus, injuries happen. Some top team thinking World Series loses a second baseman to injury, I don't think Reds were smart on Phillips, very dumb. Bad deals.  Very bad deal.  We pay him mega millions to play for Braves, just stupid. Reds are stupid. They deserve last place with these type moves. .....Meanwhile guys in free agency well worth the Reds to bring in on the cheap for a look see.  This team needs an enema.  There is no possible logic to paying millions and millions to Phillips to play for the Braves.  I hope against Reds he kills them every game as the Reds pay him to do it.  The whole Phillips thing is stupid for a small market team to do, unless Reds are getting money under the table nobody knows about from Braves. 

Imagine Mike Brown paying a player mega millions to play for another team. I don't see him doing it. Now Raiders paid Carson Palmer after he went to Cardinals, and the new Raiders owner came in and said he hated the last owner put him behind the 8 ball. Unless you get great draft picks or good trades, this thing of paying players mega millions to play for another team is just bone headed. I hope Phillips beats Reds in each of the games with Braves. At least they aren't paying him to play for a division team they play a lot.

[grampahol]

Let's make it really ancient and if a player didn't have a 400 batting average we could have them fight with hungry lions or whipped to death.. 
My grandfather played for years in semipro leagues so by the time I was old enough to listen his stories he was describing playing with the likes of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth back in the days of barnstorming. Pete Rose was still just a wippersnapper to grandpa, but grampa was a catcher so JB was big news for him.  One thing never changes. He hated umpires and there was no such thing as protective gear such a helmets or shin guards. I'm kind of surprised my grandfather still had legs at 70 years old. They were REALLY scared up to the point that they didn't really resemble actual legs.  Those scars were badges of courage to him. He would have played for free and actually did... forget a million dollar contract. 
Some of you act AS IF you're the ones having to pay out these astronomical salaries and should have a say so in negotiations.. Now we have players hitting 220 or with ERAs of over 500 and paid more than super stars of just a few years ago.  
As far as Phillips goes more than a few people were screaming to trade him at any cost and now that he's traded you want to whine about not getting a kings ransom for his services..  

[kevin]

(02-21-2017, 12:03 PM)grampahol Wrote: Let's make it really ancient and if a player didn't have a 400 batting average we could have them fight with hungry lions or whipped to death.. 
My grandfather played for years in semipro leagues so by the time I was old enough to listen his stories he was describing playing with the likes of Ty Cobb and Babe Ruth back in the days of barnstorming. Pete Rose was still just a wippersnapper to grandpa, but grampa was a catcher so JB was big news for him.  One thing never changes. He hated umpires and there was no such thing as protective gear such a helmets or shin guards. I'm kind of surprised my grandfather still had legs at 70 years old. They were REALLY scared up to the point that they didn't really resemble actual legs.  Those scars were badges of courage to him. He would have played for free and actually did... forget a million dollar contract. 
Some of you act AS IF you're the ones having to pay out these astronomical salaries and should have a say so in negotiations.. Now we have players hitting 220 or with ERAs of over 500 and paid more than super stars of just a few years ago.  
As far as Phillips goes more than a few people were screaming to trade him at any cost and now that he's traded you want to whine about not getting a kings ransom for his services..  

A Kings Ransom ?????.....They are paying his full contract to play for the Braves and they got two real nothings in return....A small market team has to be smarter than that....I hope he plays like Ty Cobb or Babe Ruth every game against Reds for their stupidity. ....Yes, if I was paying him all these millions he would be wearing my teams uniform. Why Reds are paying his full contract of mega millions to wear a Braves uniform all season is just stupid, and again, they got nothing, nothing in this trade. A couple dud pitchers that make Hoover look like Sandy Koufax.

[Goalpost]

Phillips had to go. Peraza hit .324 last year. He earned his chance. He also could steal 50 bases this year. Gotta remember BP had a say on where he could go so that limited the Reds options to deal him.

[McC]

For a team like the Reds to win a WS in this day and age, you need the right group of guys and one magical season. You have to draft and develop well. That much is crucial. We were one hit in any one of three games away from a chance at that with the previous group.

The window will be small and you have to recognize that and not overspend to try to keep them together. Either they do it in a year or two or they don't.

Look at the Marlins. They won two separate times like this. And after they won the first one, they had no problem with tearing it down and building another. They didn't handcuff themselves trying to keep it together like the Reds did.

[Yojimbo]

(02-20-2017, 11:15 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't mind the rebuilding if it looks like you have a plan. So far I haven't figured out the plan. The BP trade has me completely confused.

It's so the youngsters can play without bad juju in the clubhouse. You think BP would be happy only playing once a week?