Trade a Bust for a Bust?

[Derrick]

(02-23-2017, 03:16 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Marv's policy on not playing high draft picks is idiotic. This is the main issue with Dennard.

They aren't college freshman.

Is there any other team that does not give substantial PT to first and second round picks?

The same criticism could be used for Burkhead. I blame the HC and assistant coaches for almost never playing Burkhead in 4 years. He is a mini-Cinderella story. And those don't come along very often. Typical Marvin Lewis coaching.
Likely Burkhead will be leaving the Bengals this off season as a FA. I am done will Hill!!!

[THE PISTONS]

(02-23-2017, 04:56 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: I want Kirkpatrick back. If Pacman was going to be cut I think it would have happened already. WJ3 may be our best corner. Josh Shaw is good. Russell was a 3rd round pick last year and we obviously like his potential.

Darqueze is just wasting away on our team. If he gets a chance to play he gets hurt. Would we even notice if he was gone? Its been 3 years...

Another guy drafted much higher in the same year as Darqueze is having the same type of bust labeled career. He is a mammoth athletic prototype LT. Greg Robinson was the #2 overall pick in 2014 going to the horribly coached Rams. He started at G was moved out to T and now there is talk he will go back to G.

Dont get me wrong Marvin Lewis and the piano man are below average coaches. But they are not as bad as Jeff Fisher who coached Robinson with the Rams.

Greg Robinson is only 24 and with a new coaching staff taking over the Rams they may be willing to give up on a previous regimes draft bust. We may be in need of more bodies at T or just on the OL. The Rams could use help at CB. Robinson does have more game experience than Darqueze, though it isnt anything to brag about. The Rams are also missing their 1st and 3rd round picks in the draft this year due to the Goff trade.

I would trade Darqueze for Greg Robinson straight up. If they balk sweeten up the deal with a late 6th or 7th.

I loved Greg Robinson in the draft and think his career is salvageable. Would you trade Darqueze for Robinson?

I'm not ready to give up on Dennard. Plus, trading for Robinson basically means that we won't be signing a free agent Tackle...OR that we let Whitworth go. We'd be relying on essentially 2 Tackle busts in Robinson and Ced...assuming Fisher is the starting RT.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-25-2017, 10:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Dennard has played 585 defensive snaps. Lets not pretend that he's never touched the field in his career so far.

Cool story about Aaron Rodgers. Show me the Brett Favre that Dennard is stuck behind and I will be glad to agree with you. But until you can point out the first ballot Hall of Famer he's stuck behind, I will point out to you that Dennard got passed up by Josh Shaw on the depth chart. A guy who is both younger, drafted later, and had less experience than Dennard coming into '16.

If they draft me in the first round and don't get a ton of playing time, and get passed up on the depth chart by younger guys, maybe I am just not any good. Just throwing out a thought there. You say he can't be judged because he has gotten no playing time. I say he hasn't gotten an abundance of playing time because he isn't very good. Shaw got a small taste of playing time in '15 and impressed. Dennard didn't.



You can end up being a good player in the end and still be a bust. Reggie Nelson was a bust for the Jags, got traded for David Jones (who was going to be cut anyway), and ended up becoming a great player with the Bengals. Doesn't make him any less of a bust for the Jags who used a 1st round pick on him.

Kirkpatrick was indeed pretty good last year, but you don't spend the 17th overall pick on a CB who doesn't become decent until year 5. Those players are called busts. People get too wrapped up with equating bust to a player being garbage. A mediocre starting QB chosen 1st overall is a bust. A mediocre starting QB chosen in the 4th round is a great pick. It's all about context.

I agree with some of what you say here. Injuries have to be taken into account though and some great players are
made of glass like Bob Sanders and maybe even Tyler Eifert. Dennard might be one of them, i would just like to see
what he has before i call him a bust. He has fluid hips and great ball skills.

I still have high hopes for the man and am just hoping he is not made of fine china.

Heck, Frostee Rucker took many years and seemed like glass as well, he did okay here after awhile and in Zona.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-25-2017, 10:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree with some of what you say here. Injuries have to be taken into account though and some great players are
made of glass like Bob Sanders and maybe even Tyler Eifert. Dennard might be one of them, i would just like to see
what he has before i call him a bust. He has fluid hips and great ball skills.

I still have high hopes for the man and am just hoping he is not made of fine china.

Heck, Frostee Rucker took many years and seemed like glass as well, he did okay here after awhile and in Zona.

Sure, injuries can be taken into account. A bad luck injury (Gio's torn ACL on a play that didn't look like anything, Dalton's broken thumb) is one thing, but if you keep getting banged up or hurt, it's another. Staying healthy is a skill, too. The reason why Sanders/Eifert/etc aren't technically busts is because of how dominate they are/were when healthy. Dennard doesn't have that.

I doubt his ball skills. He's played 585 defensive snaps. Last year ~1100 snaps was a whole season. So in a little over half a season of play, he has 84 tackles, 1 sack, 5 Pdef, 1 INT, 0 FF... that would pace out to be roughly a 160 tackle, 2 sack, 10 Pdef, 2 INT, 0 FF full season. Maybe good numbers for a linebacker, but terrible for a CB.

It's one thing if you don't have a lot of Pdef and INT because people aren't challenging your coverage (Revis in '10 had 32 tackles, 10 Pdef, 0 INT because nobody wanted a ball anywhere near him), but CBs getting that many tackles is a bad sign, doubly so when there's so little play on the ball. It means there's a lot of completions in his coverage and he then makes the tackle after it's completed. For example, DeAngelo Hall a couple years back when he had three straight years of 90+ tackles at CB because even though he made plays on balls, he gave up a bajillion yards/completions.

I honestly think Dennard's future in the NFL is at safety and he could have success there.

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-25-2017, 10:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm not ready to give up on Dennard. Plus, trading for Robinson basically means that we won't be signing a free agent Tackle...OR that we let Whitworth go. We'd be relying on essentially 2 Tackle busts in Robinson and Ced...assuming Fisher is the starting RT.

Well... Chances are we wont be signing a free agent tackle above the Marshall Newhouse or Eric Winston level. And Whitworth is hitting the market at 35 for the first time in his career. If he wanted to be here it would be done already. I think he wants to see what its like on the other side.

We have gotten lucky in the past with other peoples first round busts. 

We paid Pacman, drafted another 1st round CB, claimed and held onto Keivare all year, gave Shaw a bunch of playing time... If we pay Kirk big money the strikes just keep coming for Darqueze. Just throwing out ideas to see if using all those first round picks on CBs can return some value.

[SunsetBengal]

I'm going to go bold, with proposing an intradivisional bust for bust trade. I say we trade our bust OL Coach, Paul Alexander to the Steelers for Mike Munchak, who was a bust as a HC.

[fredtoast]

(02-25-2017, 08:19 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: There's no such thing in the NFL as a 1st round pick heading into his 4th year/age 26 season, who is a prospect.

Aaron Rodgers.

[fredtoast]

(02-25-2017, 10:15 PM)Derrick Wrote: The same criticism could be used for Burkhead. I blame the HC and assistant coaches for almost never playing Burkhead in 4 years. He is a mini-Cinderella story. And those don't come along very often. Typical Marvin Lewis coaching.
Likely Burkhead will be leaving the Bengals this off season as a FA. I am done will Hill!!!

Typical?  Really?  Based on what?  Could you please give me a list of all these players who Marvin let go who became solid starters somewhere else?

[CageTheBengal]

(02-25-2017, 10:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Dennard has played 585 defensive snaps. Lets not pretend that he's never touched the field in his career so far.

Cool story about Aaron Rodgers. Show me the Brett Favre that Dennard is stuck behind and I will be glad to agree with you. But until you can point out the first ballot Hall of Famer he's stuck behind, I will point out to you that Dennard got passed up by Josh Shaw on the depth chart. A guy who is both younger, drafted later, and had less experience than Dennard coming into '16.

If they draft me in the first round and don't get a ton of playing time, and get passed up on the depth chart by younger guys, maybe I am just not any good. Just throwing out a thought there. You say he can't be judged because he has gotten no playing time. I say he hasn't gotten an abundance of playing time because he isn't very good. Shaw got a small taste of playing time in '15 and impressed. Dennard didn't.



You can end up being a good player in the end and still be a bust. Reggie Nelson was a bust for the Jags, got traded for David Jones (who was going to be cut anyway), and ended up becoming a great player with the Bengals. Doesn't make him any less of a bust for the Jags who used a 1st round pick on him.

Kirkpatrick was indeed pretty good last year, but you don't spend the 17th overall pick on a CB who doesn't become decent until year 5. Those players are called busts. People get too wrapped up with equating bust to a player being garbage. A mediocre starting QB chosen 1st overall is a bust. A mediocre starting QB chosen in the 4th round is a great pick. It's all about context.

So you throw out a stat and that negates the fact that Dennard has had his opportunities derailed by injuries or the depth chart time and time again, same as Kirk did?

You can spin it as much as you like but by your definition Rodgers is a bust or was pretty close to it for a HoF QB.

You think Dennard got passed up because his ability? By saying that you are basically saying conservative Marvin Lewis is making the right choice and he isn't so bad at making a depth chart. Do you think Hall got the start over Kirk for so long because Kirk wasn't good enough? What about Newman? Do you think Marvin has too much loyalty to vets and is hesitant to pull the trigger on a depth chart move?

Shaw didn't beat out Dennard. Dennard got injured (once again.) during the off-season workouts and missed most of his practice time. The coaches were comfortable with Shaw and didn't want to rock the boat. More spinning.

Reggie Nelson isn't a bust he's a really good safety that was misused in Jacksonville by Del Rio. They tried moving him to CB instead of letting him play his natural position. Another coaching decision that has hampered a players development. Do you see the trend yet? Labeling someone a bust is implying the player wasn't good enough and that it was a mistake to draft them. The mistake with the Jags wasn't drafting Nelson it was how they used him. How's that on Nelson? How's that fair that Nelson carries a bust label in your eyes because Del Rio stunted his growth at his natural position?

Kirk didn't magically become "decent". He needed playing time just like Dennard. Why did he need playing time? To contribute to his experience as playing at the highest level of the game I'm sure isn't an easy thing to do. That game day experienced combined with the experience a player obtains by being healthy, practicing, building chemistry/trust with the coaches and teammates helps develop them into a good player. You miss out on all of that when you are injured and an important portion of it when you don't get the chance to play. It's called player development. You just want to skip that part though and watch them play like an all-pro like a video game.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-25-2017, 11:07 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sure, injuries can be taken into account. A bad luck injury (Gio's torn ACL on a play that didn't look like anything, Dalton's broken thumb) is one thing, but if you keep getting banged up or hurt, it's another. Staying healthy is a skill, too. The reason why Sanders/Eifert/etc aren't technically busts is because of how dominate they are/were when healthy. Dennard doesn't have that.

I doubt his ball skills. He's played 585 defensive snaps. Last year ~1100 snaps was a whole season. So in a little over half a season of play, he has 84 tackles, 1 sack, 5 Pdef, 1 INT, 0 FF... that would pace out to be roughly a 160 tackle, 2 sack, 10 Pdef, 2 INT, 0 FF full season. Maybe good numbers for a linebacker, but terrible for a CB.

It's one thing if you don't have a lot of Pdef and INT because people aren't challenging your coverage (Revis in '10 had 32 tackles, 10 Pdef, 0 INT because nobody wanted a ball anywhere near him), but CBs getting that many tackles is a bad sign, doubly so when there's so little play on the ball. It means there's a lot of completions in his coverage and he then makes the tackle after it's completed. For example, DeAngelo Hall a couple years back when he had three straight years of 90+ tackles at CB because even though he made plays on balls, he gave up a bajillion yards/completions.

I honestly think Dennard's future in the NFL is at safety and he could have success there.

Thanks for the stats TLL.

I still think it is unfair to judge Dennard until he is fully healthy. I will judge what i see then.

Still haven't seen him 100%. He was coming off of injury last year.

Shaw is more of a Safety type. Another reason i think Safety is not a hole on this team.

I like both Derron Smith and Shaw if Shawn continues to play poorly.

Dennard thrived on the outside in college, i think he could be real good there if he has all Offseason and TC to prepare.

[bengalhoel]

(02-26-2017, 02:43 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Kirk didn't magically become "decent". He needed playing time just like Dennard. Why did he need playing time? To contribute to his experience as playing at the highest level of the game I'm sure isn't an easy thing to do. That game day experienced combined with the experience a player obtains by being healthy, practicing, building chemistry/trust with the coaches and teammates helps develop them into a good player. You miss out on all of that when you are injured and an important portion of it when you don't get the chance to play. It's called player development. You just want to skip that part though and watch them play like an all-pro like a video game.

Because of the rule changes , cornerback has become the hardest position to learn in the NFL (that isnt QB).  You have to have playing time to learn all the patterns and cheap crap teams (especially the Steelers with their illegal pick plays) throw at them. Especially when you are not the most physically gifted corner on the planet. I didn't like the selection but I haven't seen enough to call him a bust.