Our Issues Start with the Lines

[THE PISTONS]

Gone are the days when our defensive line could get consistent pressure on the QB from the Front 4 alone. This makes us have to blitz with LB's who aside from Burfict aren't good pass rushers. It also makes us play more zone and exposes our safeties who aren't good in pass coverage.

On offense, our line isn't good at pass protecting. It is also equally poor in run blocking. Imagine if we could run the ball for a healthy average against good teams...

To be honest, with the $15 million cap space available number...even if we can retain Whitworth...I struggle to see how we can improve both lines. In the draft we may get a DE or LB...but we have a lot of needs.

Billings isn't going to be a guy who pressures the QB. He will be more of a run plugger.

[NATI BENGALS]

I think Fisher will be better. My fingers are crossed Ogbuehi discovered strength training this offseason. I am down on OG big time. But a young tackle struggling their first couple years in the league is not uncommon. Even for early picks.

We might see addition by subtraction on the DL. Replacing Hunt Gilberry and Peko with younger more talented players could be a boost.

We have 11 draft picks. About half of those picks should be used on the lines.

Hopefully Mike Brown makes Marvin Lewis go through a contract year. And maybe we see some urgency from the coaches.

[Au165]

(02-28-2017, 04:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Gone are the days when our defensive line could get consistent pressure on the QB from the Front 4 alone. This makes us have to blitz with LB's who aside from Burfict aren't good pass rushers. It also makes us play more zone and exposes our safeties who aren't good in pass coverage.

On offense, our line isn't good at pass protecting. It is also equally poor in run blocking. Imagine if we could run the ball for a healthy average against good teams...

To be honest, with the $15 million cap space available number...even if we can retain Whitworth...I struggle to see how we can improve both lines. In the draft we may get a DE or LB...but we have a lot of needs.

Billings isn't going to be a guy who pressures the QB. He will be more of a run plugger.

Second half of the year weren't we a top 10 defense? I think it comes down to early in the year our safeties weren't on the same page with the CBs. I think what losing Reggie hurt the most was communication in the secondary, but by the end of the year a lot of the kinks got worked out.

[samhain]

(02-28-2017, 04:27 PM)Au165 Wrote: Second half of the year weren't we a top 10 defense? I think it comes down to early in the year our safeties weren't on the same page with the CBs. I think what losing Reggie hurt the most was communication in the secondary, but by the end of the year a lot of the kinks got worked out.

Our only two difference makers on the d-line continue to age. Very soon, they'll both have logged a decade in the league.  There are literally 2 good players and a some guys.  How much longer do you think this team can get by not drafting good d-linemen?  An injury to either guy, or any backslide on Dunlap or Atkins part would destroy this team.  By the time the secondary is up to speed, we'll be looking at a d-line as awful as our o-line.

[Goalpost]

The first four picks, two on each side, should really go the the lines. I understand they could go RB, WR, or LB but wouldn't complain if addressing the lines first is how it happens.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

I think they will play Westerman at RG and Fisher at RT. I'm concerned, but hopeful about those two. If they're plan is to start Ogbuehi at LT then I'm uncertain if I'm scared shitless or shit my pants scared.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-28-2017, 06:14 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I think they will play Westerman at RG and Fisher at RT. I'm concerned, but hopeful about those two. If they're plan is to start Ogbuehi at LT then I'm uncertain if I'm scared shitless or shit my pants scared.

Think about how our QBs feel....no wonder they're mum on trading McCarron !

[wolfkaosaun]

Draft Barnett. Then you have a speed rusher with natural bend.
Start Billings, a NT who actually can push double teams back and able to make moves.

Defensive line could look like Dunlap, Atkins, Billings, MJ/Barnett.
Also draft another DT. Then I think that line is set for a good while.

Offensive line is trickier. They love Ogbuehi, but he's displaying the same issues he had in college and showed little to no improvement.

Fisher had some up and down tape. But he got better as time went on.

Zeitler is possibly gone, and it's an unknown.

Whit NEEDS to be back, or else we would have a terrible OT tandem.

Ogbuehi, Boling, Bodine, Westerman/draft pick, and Fisher.
That's worst case scenario and we end up having one of the worst lines in the league.

There's zero reason why we shouldn't be able to sign Whit and Zeitler. Zero.

[Derrick]

(02-28-2017, 04:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Gone are the days when our defensive line could get consistent pressure on the QB from the Front 4 alone. This makes us have to blitz with LB's who aside from Burfict aren't good pass rushers. It also makes us play more zone and exposes our safeties who aren't good in pass coverage.

On offense, our line isn't good at pass protecting. It is also equally poor in run blocking. Imagine if we could run the ball for a healthy average against good teams...

To be honest, with the $15 million cap space available number...even if we can retain Whitworth...I struggle to see how we can improve both lines. In the draft we may get a DE or LB...but we have a lot of needs.

Billings isn't going to be a guy who pressures the QB. He will be more of a run plugger.

Come on... You know Marvy has NO concern about the O Line.

[J24]

Realistically I think the offensive line is an overrated issue by the fans. We had two really bad players in bodine and OGbughie but the rest were good. Sign Mangold, Draft a RG(unless they like westerman) , and I think Fisher would be solid for them.
Defensive Line is much bigger because we really only have two major pass rushing threats and Thier seems to be no cheap solution out in the free agency market. We need a nickel DT to replace gilberry and another edge rusher would be nice.

[lone bengal]

If their's a DE at 9 worth taking I'd pull the trigger. Figure on passing downs you could hypothetically have the 9th pick and Dunlap on the Edge with Atkins and possible Hardison ( if he can stay healthy) or Williams inside on passing downs. You could have Michael Johnson in on running downs along with Billings at NT. Maybe sign Peko to a 1 year vet minimum to show Billings the ropes. Hopefully with more quality depth we can keep guys fresh and have them more effective versus guys like Johnson playing all 3 downs and wearing down. If we can get pressure on the qb it will help out our coverage at all levels. That's why i'm opposed to taking Foster or a linebacker at 9. If we take Foster and have him and Burfict in on passing downs and we can't get pressure on the qb it won't matter we can't cover all day. You can find an athletic LB in later rounds to pair with Burfict in the nickel plus your drafted Virgil in the 3rd round maybe he's that guy. Their's no offensive linemen worth drafting at 9 so you just have to hope they resign Whit to bridge the gap with Ced for another year and that Fisher pan out at RT. Hopefully with Bodine's contract coming up they draft his replacement this year.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-28-2017, 08:25 PM)J24 Wrote: Realistically I think the offensive line is an overrated issue by the fans. We had two really bad players in bodine and OGbughie but the rest were good. Sign Mangold, Draft a RG(unless they like westerman) , and I think Fisher would be solid for them.
Defensive Line is much bigger because we really only have two major pass rushing threats and Thier seems to be no cheap solution out in the free agency market. We need a nickel DT to replace gilberry and another edge rusher would be nice.

You say 2 really bad players on the OL, like it's some small thing.  It's 40% of the OL...  It's also much trickier to fix, than what might meet the casual observer's eye. 

OL gains part of their strength as a unit, from playing beside one another.  They know each other's strengths, weaknesses, all of each other's hobbies, interests, and names of all their immediate family members.  Simply drafting a couple of prospects and plugging them in, just doesn't really work that well.  It takes reps together, as a unit, to develop cohesiveness.

Best scenario for the OL is to re-sign Whit, do their best to re-sign Zeitler,  and make some hard choices concerning the developmental players that they have under contract.  They really swung and missed on Ogbuehi, and this is generally considered a weak draft class, as far as LT prospects go.  The real replacement needs to be at OL coach (but we know that won't happen).  So, even though I hate Bodine, and really think that his ass sucks canal water, he did show at least signs of improvement, as last year wore on.  On the bench, we saw limited action from TJ Johnson, and he looked rather underwhelming.  Aside from preseason reps, crickets from Westerman and Hopkins, so that tells me that the staff isn't comfortable with either of them.  Jake Fisher, I think that he will continue to develop into a reliable to good player at RT.

Best short term remedy is to get a veteran G, in the likely event that Zeitler is no longer with the team.  A veteran will adapt more quickly than a fresh body, from the standpoint of melding in with existing personnel.  Step two, draft heavy on the interior of the OL.  This is a great year to load up on C and G, why not take advantage of it?  As for LT, we will have to hope that Whit can maintain his level, and really hope that next year's class is better than this year's.

[THE PISTONS]

(02-28-2017, 08:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You say 2 really bad players on the OL, like it's some small thing.  It's 40% of the OL...  It's also much trickier to fix, than what might meet the casual observer's eye. 

OL gains part of their strength as a unit, from playing beside one another.  They know each other's strengths, weaknesses, all of each other's hobbies, interests, and names of all their immediate family members.  Simply drafting a couple of prospects and plugging them in, just doesn't really work that well.  It takes reps together, as a unit, to develop cohesiveness.

Best scenario for the OL is to re-sign Whit, do their best to re-sign Zeitler,  and make some hard choices concerning the developmental players that they have under contract.  They really swung and missed on Ogbuehi, and this is generally considered a weak draft class, as far as LT prospects go.  The real replacement needs to be at OL coach (but we know that won't happen).  So, even though I hate Bodine, and really think that his ass sucks canal water, he did show at least signs of improvement, as last year wore on.  On the bench, we saw limited action from TJ Johnson, and he looked rather underwhelming.  Aside from preseason reps, crickets from Westerman and Hopkins, so that tells me that the staff isn't comfortable with either of them.  Jake Fisher, I think that he will continue to develop into a reliable to good player at RT.

Best short term remedy is to get a veteran G, in the likely event that Zeitler is no longer with the team.  A veteran will adapt more quickly than a fresh body, from the standpoint of melding in with existing personnel.  Step two, draft heavy on the interior of the OL.  This is a great year to load up on C and G, why not take advantage of it?  As for LT, we will have to hope that Whit can maintain his level, and really hope that next year's class is better than this year's.

I was going to say something similar. 40% of the line has issues and we're likely losing Zeitler and possibly Whitworth. Boling is the only guy that we know will be back for sure that can play. All of the rest of the guys are question marks. Fisher is still a question mark too in my mind.

Oh...and the team website is talking about how they have $15 million total to spend in free agency...so you can't just sign free agents to plug it.

[J24]

(02-28-2017, 08:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You say 2 really bad players on the OL, like it's some small thing.  It's 40% of the OL...  It's also much trickier to fix, than what might meet the casual observer's eye. 

OL gains part of their strength as a unit, from playing beside one another.  They know each other's strengths, weaknesses, all of each other's hobbies, interests, and names of all their immediate family members.  Simply drafting a couple of prospects and plugging them in, just doesn't really work that well.  It takes reps together, as a unit, to develop cohesiveness.

Best scenario for the OL is to re-sign Whit, do their best to re-sign Zeitler,  and make some hard choices concerning the developmental players that they have under contract.  They really swung and missed on Ogbuehi, and this is generally considered a weak draft class, as far as LT prospects go.  The real replacement needs to be at OL coach (but we know that won't happen).  So, even though I hate Bodine, and really think that his ass sucks canal water, he did show at least signs of improvement, as last year wore on.  On the bench, we saw limited action from TJ Johnson, and he looked rather underwhelming.  Aside from preseason reps, crickets from Westerman and Hopkins, so that tells me that the staff isn't comfortable with either of them.  Jake Fisher, I think that he will continue to develop into a reliable to good player at RT.

Best short term remedy is to get a veteran G, in the likely event that Zeitler is no longer with the team.  A veteran will adapt more quickly than a fresh body, from the standpoint of melding in with existing personnel.  Step two, draft heavy on the interior of the OL.  This is a great year to load up on C and G, why not take advantage of it?  As for LT, we will have to hope that Whit can maintain his level, and really hope that next year's class is better than this year's.

I think Fisher solves the issue at RT and the Bengals will draft a early replacement for zeitler at Guard. Whit wont go anywhere else and the Bengals should think about replacing bodine but even if they don't is it that big of the deal since during the prior two seasons they made the playoffs with him at center?  In 12 we had 2 new starters on the offensive line in Zietler and Boiling and we ended being fine I don't see that being a major issue in 17.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-28-2017, 09:48 PM)J24 Wrote: I think Fisher solves the issue at RT and the Bengals will draft a early replacement for zeitler at Guard. Whit wont go anywhere else and the Bengals should think about replacing bodine but even if they don't is it that big of the deal since during the prior two seasons they made the playoffs with him at center?  In 12 we had 2 new starters on the offensive line in Zietler and Boiling and we ended being fine I don't see that being a major issue in 17.

Yes, and where is the major weakness on this line, and where does most of the pressure come from (pre 2016)?  Pressure from one side or the other is one thing....when it's coming up the gut and in your face is another.  Also, he kills us in the run game and makes us one dimensional, which is a death sentence in the postseason.  Blodine is a much bigger problem than some people realize.

[Sled21]

Quote: Billings isn't going to be a guy who pressures the QB. He will be more of a run plugger.

Quote:Start Billings, a NT who actually can push double teams back and able to make moves.

Quote: Pressure from one side or the other is one thing....when it's coming up the gut and in your face is another.

Billings is a huge unknown. How did his knee heal, how did his mental outlook heal, how much strength has he been able to put back into the knee after rehab??? It took Geno a whole season to recover both. That said, if Billings is 100% and he lines up inside with Atkins, then I'm not sure any line in the NFL could stop that bull rush, let alone deal with Dunlap and (insert name here) coming from the ends. We'll just have to wait and see what we have in the rook... he may be great or may be a bust. They need to sign Peko to a 1 year deal until we know. Then let him retire a Bengal. He's been a tremendous asset to this team and does not deserve a lot of the vitriol he gets here.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-01-2017, 11:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Billings is a huge unknown. How did his knee heal, how did his mental outlook heal, how much strength has he been able to put back into the knee after rehab??? It took Geno a whole season to recover both. That said, if Billings is 100% and he lines up inside with Atkins, then I'm not sure any line in the NFL could stop that bull rush, let alone deal with Dunlap and (insert name here) coming from the ends. We'll just have to wait and see what we have in the rook... he may be great or may be a bust. They need to sign Peko to a 1 year deal until we know. Then let him retire a Bengal. He's been a tremendous asset to this team and does not deserve a lot of the vitriol he gets here.

Billings is a total unknown. People assume his freakish weight room numbers will translate to huge push...and it may or may not. There are a lot of other factors at play and lineman in the NFL are all strong. (Except Ced.)

I looked and Billings actually tore meniscus...which is a much quicker recovery than a torn ligament. That's promising.

[*SHRacerX*]

(02-28-2017, 04:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Gone are the days when our defensive line could get consistent pressure on the QB from the Front 4 alone. This makes us have to blitz with LB's who aside from Burfict aren't good pass rushers. It also makes us play more zone and exposes our safeties who aren't good in pass coverage.

On offense, our line isn't good at pass protecting. It is also equally poor in run blocking. Imagine if we could run the ball for a healthy average against good teams...

To be honest, with the $15 million cap space available number...even if we can retain Whitworth...I struggle to see how we can improve both lines. In the draft we may get a DE or LB...but we have a lot of needs.

Billings isn't going to be a guy who pressures the QB. He will be more of a run plugger.

I hear what you are saying about the front four not getting pressure without blitzing, and they hardly ever blitz.

However, I think the addition of a Soloman Thomas or Derek Barnett gives them the missing piece in that front four.  That, plus Billings, who helps the line get pressure be drawing double teams.  There simply isn't one guy that can stop him mono a mono, and that will help free up the rest of the line.  

The offensive side is a bit more challenging with the potential for two vacancies, but I think it is almost a done deal that Whit will be here at least two more years, and that allows Zeitler to be replaced by a second rounder like Feeney, Lamp, or Biswonty.  The rushing offense will also get a significant boost with a new RB pushing Hill and Sexy for playing time.  

Without Ced O out there, the line was at least solid.  With Fisher at RT at the end of the year, I thought they did pretty damn well and that was without Boling in the last week who played with a torn rotator cuff all season.  

FWIW, I hope Eflein is still there in the 3rd and they can get him, too.  

[THE PISTONS]

(03-03-2017, 10:06 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I hear what you are saying about the front four not getting pressure without blitzing, and they hardly ever blitz.

However, I think the addition of a Soloman Thomas or Derek Barnett gives them the missing piece in that front four.  That, plus Billings, who helps the line get pressure be drawing double teams.  There simply isn't one guy that can stop him mono a mono, and that will help free up the rest of the line.  

The offensive side is a bit more challenging with the potential for two vacancies, but I think it is almost a done deal that Whit will be here at least two more years, and that allows Zeitler to be replaced by a second rounder like Feeney, Lamp, or Biswonty.  The rushing offense will also get a significant boost with a new RB pushing Hill and Sexy for playing time.  

Without Ced O out there, the line was at least solid.  With Fisher at RT at the end of the year, I thought they did pretty damn well and that was without Boling in the last week who played with a torn rotator cuff all season.  

FWIW, I hope Eflein is still there in the 3rd and they can get him, too.  

I agree with most of what you are saying...but I doubt that Billings draws a double-team in the Pros...atleast initially. I see him as more of a run plugger and guy that can keep the lineman off of linebackers than a dominant sack guy.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-03-2017, 10:40 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree with most of what you are saying...but I doubt that Billings draws a double-team in the Pros...atleast initially. I see him as more of a run plugger and guy that can keep the lineman off of linebackers than a dominant sack guy.

True, it will be a different animal for him altogether, but the (very) early reports in camp were that he was nearly impossible to move from a spot with one guy.  He may not generate a lot of sacks himself, but I bet Geno is salivating at the prospect of playing next to him....not to mention what a really strong RDE could do on the other side as well.