Fredtoast take on the O-line issue

[fredtoast]

O-line play was very poor last year.  The best two players on that line are free agents.  Even some one like me who generally defends Alexander's coaching ability has to be extremely concerned with the O-line for '17.

People talk a lot about Palmer's injuries and Bratkowski getting stale, but by far the single biggest reason for the decline of the '05 Bengals was the loss of the O-line.  Every single starter on that line was set to become a free agent within 2 years.  the Bengals stepped up big and paid 4 of the five very well.  I believe that Willie and Levi were the highest paid starting tackles in the league.  the only guy they let go was Steinbach.  Eric was a damn good player, but at that time the contract he got from the Browns made him the second highest paid OG in the NFL. The Bengal just could not pay them all.  But if Anderson, Jones, and Braham don't all suffer career altering injuries in '06-'07, the Bengals would have plugged in Whit at LG and not missed a beat.  Funny how people who bash PA never give him credit for finding a franchise LT like Whitworth late in the second round.

But after using a second round pick on Whit in '06 the Bengal did almost nothing to address the crumbling O-line in the draft.  Over the next 5 years they used only one pick higher than the fourth round on an offensive lineman.  That was Andre Smith in '09 and his first two seasons were marred by injuries.  In the 8 year span from '04 through the Bengals only used 2 picks higher than the fourth round on O-line.  Alexander was forced to re-build most of the line with mid to late round draft picks and undrafted free agents.

My take on Alexander is that he is highly regarded as far as teaching pass protection.  The record seems to bear that out.  You all know my arguments about that by now.  But except for that one freak performance in Jeremy Hill's rookie season our run game has suffered for years.  And despite the fact that Marvin likes to run the ball the NFL has become a passing league.  teams have to take advantage of the rule changes.  So I guess they value Alexander's pass protection advantage more than they worry about our weak running game.

Here is my take on the current situation....

Ogbuehi was shockingly bad, but I am not willing to write him off yet.  He has missed bot training camps, and once the season starts most of the work is in classrooms and walk-throughs.  They want to save the players'  bodies for Sunday so there are not a lot of full speed reps during the week.  And since Og often looked pretty slow for a guy who is supposed to be so quick I think his slowness is due to reaction time instead of slow feet.  He obviously needs to get bigger and stronger, but that should have happened after his rookie year.  Hopefully getting tossed around a bit will embarrass him into really hitting the weights.  But again, getting tossed aside is often the result of being out off balance or lunging due to being out of position.  BUT even though I have hope that Cedric has a break out year there is no way in hell we should go into next season counting on him starting at LT.  We have to either re-sign Whit, use a first or second round pick, or sign at least a mid tier free agent to play LT.  And LTs are so expensive in free agency that even the mid tier guys are expensive.  

Fisher starts somewhere.  Either RT or RG.  They had him playing everywhere as a rookie.  I actually think that stunted his development.  I think he will turn out to be a decent starter.

Zeitler could be gone.  But no way we let both Whit and Zeitler walk.  That would be scary.

Bodine will probably be our starter again, but I bet we use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a center to groom as his replacement.  People act like we have stuck with a bunch of bums at Center for years, but that just is not true. Again I will not how people who hate on PA never give him credit for making a good starter out of a guy like Braham who had been cut by the Cards.  Eric Ghiaciuc was not very good but we only went into two season with him as our opening day starter ('07-'08).  Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent who PA turned into a very good center.  Cook only allowed 4 sacks in his first 48 starts ('09-'11) and was considered one of the top centers in the league by Pat Kirwan  and other experts, but Cook was inured in '12.  He played very poorly in '13 and the Bengals released him while still under contract.  I was not surprised when he struggled as a rookie starter.  If he had been good enough to start as a rookie he would not have lasted to the fourth round.  But he has not improved enough.  Bengals will probably not use a first or second round pick on a center, but look for one in the third or fourth round to possibly start in '18 when Bodine's rookie deal is up.

Boling is soid.

RT could be a mid tier free agent.  Something a step higher then Winston, but nothing too expensive or long term.  I think they still hope that both Fisher and Og will be be starters.  They might even use a 2nd or third round pick on a RT or G.  LT is a first round position, but you can still find some good RT/OG types in the 2nd-3rd.

[SunsetBengal]

First, let me say that what you wrote was a very good observation and interpretation of the OL situation. You'd be hard pressed to find many of the regulars on here that would disagree with your analysis.

There is one thing that you mentioned, that I would like to discuss a bit further. That item being the tendency for Paul Alexander to select linemen based upon their pass blocking skills, with less emphasis on run blocking ability. I am of the philosophy that pass blocking, particularly for interior OL, is a technique that can be taught. On the other hand, linemen that are good run blockers seem to be able to do that as an extension of their personality. In my way of thinking, run blocking ability is more a product of having natural aggression, along with the latent desire to dominate the man in front of them, and force him to submit to one's will.

We have seen this team's OL, over the past stretch of winning seasons, look very good in protecting the QB. However, in critical situations, struggle to gain 3rd and short via the run. Many of this team's best runs seem to come by running when a pass is expected, or by a tremendous individual effort by the ball carrier. Many times, even on say 2nd and medium distance to go, they seem unable to generate much of a push from the interior 3 of the OL. Now, these are just my very general observations. I'm certain that most anyone could go through game films and find plenty of examples that show contrary to my opinion, but I'm talking more the "big game" situations, against higher quality teams.

So, I guess my point is to ask you if you feel like a change in drafting philosophy might be in order? I understand that you are generally a proponent of Paul Alexander. Would you think that he is too set in his own philosophy to realize that a change in strategy might be in order?

[OrangeLacroix]

They should sign Matt Kalil

They should draft Reuben Foster

They should sign Kenny Britt

They should sign William Gholston

They should cut MJ, Rey and Peko.


Not that complicated.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-05-2017, 04:27 PM)OrangeLacroix Wrote: They should sign Matt Kalil

They should draft Reuben Foster

They should sign Kenny Britt

They should sign William Gholston

They should cut MJ, Rey and Peko.


Not that complicated.

I see that this is your 1st post.  Welcome to the boards!

However, did you even happen to read the title of the thread?  Or even take a glance at the posts?

[OrangeLacroix]

(03-05-2017, 04:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I see that this is your 1st post.  Welcome to the boards!

However, did you even happen to read the title of the thread?  Or even take a glance at the posts?

Oops.  I was in the wrong thread. 

My bad!

[*bfine32*]

(03-05-2017, 03:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Fisher starts somewhere.  Either RT or LG.  They had him playing everywhere as a rookie.  I actually think that stunted his development.  I think he will turn out to be a decent starter.

Do you see a possibility where Boling is moving? 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-05-2017, 03:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: O-line play was very poor last year.  The best two players on that line are free agents.  Even some one like me who generally defends Alexander's coaching ability has to be extremely concerned with the O-line for '17.

People talk a lot about Palmer's injuries and Bratkowski getting stale, but by far the single biggest reason for the decline of the '05 Bengals was the loss of the O-line.  Every single starter on that line was set to become a free agent within 2 years.  the Bengals stepped up big and paid 4 of the five very well.  I believe that Willie and Levi were the highest paid starting tackles in the league.  the only guy they let go was Steinbach.  Eric was a damn good player, but at that time the contract he got from the Browns made him the second highest paid OG in the NFL. The Bengal just could not pay them all.  But if Anderson, Jones, and Braham don't all suffer career altering injuries in '06-'07, the Bengals would have plugged in Whit at LG and not missed a beat.  Funny how people who bash PA never give him credit for finding a franchise LT like Whitworth late in the second round.

But after using a second round pick on Whit in '06 the Bengal did almost nothing to address the crumbling O-line in the draft.  Over the next 5 years they used only one pick higher than the fourth round on an offensive lineman.  That was Andre Smith in '09 and his first two seasons were marred by injuries.  In the 8 year span from '04 through the Bengals only used 2 picks higher than the fourth round on O-line.  Alexander was forced to re-build most of the line with mid to late round draft picks and undrafted free agents.

My take on Alexander is that he is highly regarded as far as teaching pass protection.  The record seems to bear that out.  You all know my arguments about that by now.  But except for that one freak performance in Jeremy Hill's rookie season our run game has suffered for years.  And despite the fact that Marvin likes to run the ball the NFL has become a passing league.  teams have to take advantage of the rule changes.  So I guess they value Alexander's pass protection advantage more than they worry about our weak running game.

Here is my take on the current situation....

Ogbuehi was shockingly bad, but I am not willing to write him off yet.  He has missed bot training camps, and once the season starts most of the work is in classrooms and walk-throughs.  They want to save the players'  bodies for Sunday so there are not a lot of full speed reps during the week.  And since Og often looked pretty slow for a guy who is supposed to be so quick I think his slowness is due to reaction time instead of slow feet.  He obviously needs to get bigger and stronger, but that should have happened after his rookie year.  Hopefully getting tossed around a bit will embarrass him into really hitting the weights.  But again, getting tossed aside is often the result of being out off balance or lunging due to being out of position.  BUT even though I have hope that Cedric has a break out year there is no way in hell we should go into next season counting on him starting at LT.  We have to either re-sign Whit, use a first or second round pick, or sign at least a mid tier free agent to play LT.  And LTs are so expensive in free agency that even the mid tier guys are expensive.  

Fisher starts somewhere.  Either RT or LG.  They had him playing everywhere as a rookie.  I actually think that stunted his development.  I think he will turn out to be a decent starter.

Zeitler could be gone.  But no way we let both Whit and Zeitler walk.  That would be scary.

Bodine will probably be our starter again, but I bet we use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a center to groom as his replacement.  People act like we have stuck with a bunch of bums at Center for years, but that just is not true. Again I will not how people who hate on PA never give him credit for making a good starter out of a guy like Braham who had been cut by the Cards.  Eric Ghiaciuc was not very good but we only went into two season with him as our opening day starter ('07-'08).  Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent who PA turned into a very good center.  Cook only allowed 4 sacks in his first 48 starts ('09-'11) and was considered one of the top centers in the league by Pat Kirwan  and other experts, but Cook was inured in '12.  He played very poorly in '13 and the Bengals released him while still under contract.  I was not surprised when he struggled as a rookie starter.  If he had been good enough to start as a rookie he would not have lasted to the fourth round.  But he has not improved enough.  Bengals will probably not use a first or second round pick on a center, but look for one in the third or fourth round to possibly start in '18 when Bodine's rookie deal is up.

Boling is soid.

RT could be a mid tier free agent.  Something a step higher then Winston, but nothing too expensive or long term.  I think they still hope that both Fisher and Og will be be starters.  They might even use a 2nd or third round pick on a RT or G.  LT is a first round position, but you can still find some good RT/OG types in the 2nd-3rd.

I will give you some props for a well thought out post Fred. We agree that we definately have to bring back Whit
and we need to add atleast 2 more O-lineman, one in FA and atleast one in the Draft. I am still hoping we draft a
Center in the 2nd round and trade AJM for a 2nd or 3rd rounder. This would help a lot.

I disagree with a few things you say here though. Fisher won't be playing LG, that is Boling's spot who i truly
believe is better than Zeitler right now. Boling is much more athletic and is a better run blocker that can pull. As
much as it pains me to admit, PA actually has done well with Boling and Whitworth. Don't know why he failed so
miserably with Ogbuehi (injuries have to be some of it). Still, starting the guy that long was beyond stupid.

Mangold sure looks like a fit for atleast some competition. We will see on this one. If we went with a FA Center i
would rather have Wisnewski but Mangold could be an upgrade of Bodine. Still would draft a Center for the future
in the 2nd or 3rd round like you said and a raw, talented LT for the future.

[HarleyDog]

I like Mangold and even met the guy before he was drafted. I fear if we get him he will not meet our expectations. He's a good kid, yet he is rapidly declining.

[*jason*]

The thread title led me to believe the fredtoast just got a sack by plowing thru Ogbuehi.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(03-05-2017, 05:46 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I like Mangold and even met the guy before he was drafted. I fear if we get him he will not meet our expectations. He's a good kid, yet he is rapidly declining.

Even signing Nick Mangold for a year would allow the Front Office and coaches time to fix the rest of the offensive line.

Fred makes some excellent points and he's right about run blocking being far worse than pass blocking.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-05-2017, 05:46 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I like Mangold and even met the guy before he was drafted. I fear if we get him he will not meet our expectations. He's a good kid, yet he is rapidly declining.

He was cut for a reason. But i agree with FIK that at the very least he could be a buffer for us for a year and a bit better than Bodine.

[BenZoo2]

It also seems like pa likes to draft the "strongest guy at the position" regardless of actual skill. This would generally seem to imply, at least to me, a bit of a nasty disposition and a mauler attitude. So they shouldn't struggle to run block as much they do. Bodine needs to stop getting blown up the middle, ced needs to be able to hold his ground better and Jeremy needs to stop tip toeing thru the tulips. I think bodine is a lost cause at center.

[BengalChris]

Fred posts a thread that I basically agree with almost 100%. A rare occurrence, so it's worth mentioning.

The team hasn't given up on Ogbuehi yet, but remember that he ended the season on IR with torn rotator cuff. He's going to need a great off season to improve his strength and I personally don't see that happening with that shoulder injury.

Re-signing Whit would be my first priority if I were the GM.

Since Mikey Brown has been in-charge, we've not drafted a center in the early rounds, unlike when his father ran things. Paul Brown valued Centers, Mikey doesn't understand. Jerry Jones does understand. So does Pittsburgh. So whenever you hear someone say we don't value centers there should be an automatic qualifier "Since Mikey Brown took over we haven't valued centers."

Even if we do end up with a good center while Mikey Brown owns the team, I'd be very inclined to attribute that to dumb luck rather than Mikey seeing the need for a good center.

[jfkbengals]

(03-05-2017, 05:47 PM)jason Wrote: The thread title led me to believe the fredtoast just got a sack  by plowing thru Ogbuehi.

Yup, I clicked on the thread looking for the time, place, and rules (I was sure if Fred was going to fight them one at a time or all at once).

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(03-05-2017, 07:26 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Fred posts a thread that I basically agree with almost 100%. A rare occurrence, so it's worth mentioning.

The team hasn't given up on Ogbuehi yet, but remember that he ended the season on IR with torn rotator cuff. He's going to need a great off season to improve his strength and I personally don't see that happening with that shoulder injury.

Re-signing Whit would be my first priority if I were the GM.

Since Mikey Brown has been in-charge, we've not drafted a center in the early rounds, unlike when his father ran things. Paul Brown valued Centers, Mikey doesn't understand. Jerry Jones does understand. So does Pittsburgh. So whenever you hear someone say we don't value centers there should be an automatic qualifier "Since Mikey Brown took over we haven't valued centers."

Even if we do end up with a good center while Mikey Brown owns the team, I'd be very inclined to attribute that to dumb luck rather than Mikey seeing the need for a good center.

Maybe Cincinnati will take Pat Elflein from Ohio State early...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-05-2017, 08:26 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Maybe Cincinnati will take Pat Elflein from Ohio State early...

Would be a great pick in the 2nd round.

[BengalsRocker]

I agree with most of what Fred is saying.

I have to say something though.

If Marvin and Paul Alexander roll with the same exact line(or less Whit/Z)and it is again an absolute crapfest...

That's it Fred. It's over. No more propping either one of them up.

Look... I don't want them to fail. I will have just about had it with the two of them if that occurs.

If pure ego tries to force square pegs into round holes, then we know exactly who we are dealing with.

[SunsetBengal]

(03-05-2017, 07:10 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: It also seems like pa likes to draft the "strongest guy at the position" regardless of actual skill.  This would generally seem to imply, at least to me, a bit of a nasty disposition and a mauler attitude.  So they shouldn't struggle to run block as much they do.  Bodine needs to stop getting blown up the middle, ced needs to be able to hold his ground better and Jeremy needs to stop tip toeing thru the tulips.  I think bodine is a lost cause at center.

Strongest guy at the position has nothing to do with the bench press.  Many of us have argued for years that different tests should be implemented to determine strength.  Training for a reps contest in bench press is not akin to doing track workouts to train for the 40.  Both are false measurables.  They do not determine a man's strength in game action, nor a man's speed in game action.  Pretty much worthless.  More times than not, they benefit guys that are not good football players more than they get unknown good football players to rise to the top.

[Shake n Blake]

I agree with almost everything you say Fred, but your post makes me wonder...why do you rip people for wanting PA replaced? Why were you ripping me for saying that Bodine should be gone but likely won't be (now you're saying the same thing)?

Also, despite the fact that it's more of a passing league these days, the run game is still massively important. Especially for a team like ours, which is more balanced than say...New Orleans or Green Bay. Also, PA's unit has been one of the worst in the playoffs. We've never been able to dominate a game on the ground (outside of Benson going nuclear against the Jets), and the pass blocking suddenly is terrible.

[Joelist]

Lest we forget having Andy's super quick release (depending on the season either fastest or second fastest in the league) has made our line look better in pass protection than it really is. We saw this effect when he got hurt in 2015 and the slower release McCarron got clobbered.