Fredtoast take on the O-line issue

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2017, 01:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Alexander started Mathis ahead of Livings in '09 until Evan got injured.

When Mathis joined the Bengals in '08 he was a journeyman who had been cut and was on his third team in two years.  After a year of PA coaching some people claimed he was one of the better guards in the league before getting injured in '09.  In '10 Mathis was fat and out of shape.  He did not deserve to start.  That is why he had to settle for a veteran league minimum deal in free agency.

My point was, the Eagles were able to get his ass in gear, when PA couldn't.  That's not so much an indictment of Alexander, as it is to say there are other people in this league who could do just as well, if not better.....and have a fresh philosophy and outlook.  If Marv has grown stale, PA is moldy by this point.

[bengals67]

(03-06-2017, 01:32 PM)Benton Wrote: We've done horrible at developing centers for a while now, but that's not just us. Center is an underrated position. The focus is usually on your tackles, and for some teams the center position seems to just be plugging in a smart lineman. For three drafts I've spent the first two rounds chanting "DT/C, DT/C, DT/C." So I've been a little disappointed with OL and corners.

But as to the thread, I don't get the knocks on Alexander. He's helped several linemen progress. At the end of the day, all a coach can do is provide insight and what they've learned. The rest is on how bad the player wants it. Guys like Whitworth don't just happen because they've got a good coach, they become one of the best linemen in the league with a long career because they want to be the best and they take their job seriously. Guys like Andre bust out for the other end of that — all the talent in the world doesn't help you if you're lazy. And coaching those guys only goes so far. You motivate a guy like Andre some in the lockerroom and some in contract negotiations.

Benton- good points but someone answer this for me.

In a passing league, with an O line coach who appears to excel in pass pro, why does Marvin adopt a run first offense?

[GodFather]

(03-05-2017, 09:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I agree with almost everything you say Fred, but your post makes me wonder...why do you rip people for wanting PA replaced? Why were you ripping me for saying that Bodine should be gone but likely won't be (now you're saying the same thing)?

Also, despite the fact that it's more of a passing league these days, the run game is still massively important. Especially for a team like ours, which is more balanced than say...New Orleans or Green Bay. Also, PA's unit has been one of the worst in the playoffs. We've never been able to dominate a game on the ground (outside of Benson going nuclear against the Jets), and the pass blocking suddenly is terrible.

It's like dealing with a 5 year old and the term "Being Difficult" comes to mind.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2017, 01:32 PM)Benton Wrote: We've done horrible at developing centers for a while now, but that's not just us. Center is an underrated position. The focus is usually on your tackles, and for some teams the center position seems to just be plugging in a smart lineman. For three drafts I've spent the first two rounds chanting "DT/C, DT/C, DT/C." So I've been a little disappointed with OL and corners.

But as to the thread, I don't get the knocks on Alexander. He's helped several linemen progress. At the end of the day, all a coach can do is provide insight and what they've learned. The rest is on how bad the player wants it. Guys like Whitworth don't just happen because they've got a good coach, they become one of the best linemen in the league with a long career because they want to be the best and they take their job seriously. Guys like Andre bust out for the other end of that — all the talent in the world doesn't help you if you're lazy. And coaching those guys only goes so far. You motivate a guy like Andre some in the lockerroom and some in contract negotiations.

Right, but we hear that the guy is a "HOFer", and yet we see flops, and we see bad play.  The run game has been bad for years.....heck, a decade or better.  I just think his time has passed.  The Pats manage to get Tom Brady up to 10 seconds to throw the ball, our QBs are lucky to get 3.  The Patriots start a 1st rounder at LT, a 3rd at LG, an UNDRAFTED rookie C, a 4th at RG, and a 5th at RT.  Who would you say is a better o line coach?  He's just not as good as advertised, and the split on the topic has led to some rather spirited debates.....to say the least.  Mediocre is a term that comes to mind when I think of him......the Bengals way.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2017, 01:41 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Benton- good points but someone answer this for me.

In a passing league, with an O line coach who appears to excel in pass pro, why does Marvin adopt a run first offense?

I would say he's adequate in pass pro....seldom do you see our QBs have all day back there.  When AJ started, and he gets the ball out much slower than Andy, we saw that maybe the pass pro has been helped out a bit by its QB.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2017, 11:00 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I meant RG.  Did not mean to suggest Boling would switch sides.

Thought so, typo.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-06-2017, 11:09 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Because they act like Alexander has never done anything good and that no other O-line coach in the league has ever coached a bad player.

Give me the name of an O-line coach who has turned every single draft pick he has coached into a star and I'll suggest we take him to replace Alexander.

You honestly think Alexander WANTED the Bengals to go almost a decade without spending more than two picks in the first two rounds on O-linemen?  The guy was forced to get by on scraps for years and he did a pretty good job with what he had.

Between 2002-2016, the Bengals took 7 o-linemen in the first round. At few points were they ever lacking talent at tackle, the most important position. I don't think the situation was that bad for as long as you claim. 2008-2009 I'd say we were weak at some spots on the line. Other than that, I'd say PA has always had more than enough to work with.

(03-06-2017, 01:32 PM)Benton Wrote: But as to the thread, I don't get the knocks on Alexander. He's helped several linemen progress. At the end of the day, all a coach can do is provide insight and what they've learned. The rest is on how bad the player wants it. Guys like Whitworth don't just happen because they've got a good coach, they become one of the best linemen in the league with a long career because they want to be the best and they take their job seriously. Guys like Andre bust out for the other end of that — all the talent in the world doesn't help you if you're lazy. And coaching those guys only goes so far. You motivate a guy like Andre some in the lockerroom and some in contract negotiations.

I don't pretend to know what Alexander does behind the scenes, so I just look at production and judge him on that. The fact that we've ranked 20th or worse in YPC for every year since 2006 (sans 2014) is something I put on Paul. Pass protection hasn't been as good as some think. Dalton has helped with that. I look at handpicked guys Paul has failed to get ready or develop. Ogbuehi was the "MVP" of a season where we won 6 fewer games than the previous year. Paul picked that player, coached him "up" and threw him out there.

Any normal team would've fired him for that reason alone. Teams don't brush off entire seasons as if they're no big deal. That's more of a Bengals thing. When you have no accountability, suddenly it's okay if a coach submarines a 12-4 team by drafting one of the worst tackles in history. Not to mention Bodine. Or Fisher. Or how he kept Livings over Mathis. Or the weird fascination he had with Dennis Roland. Or Eric Ghiaciuc.

In short, there's a lot not to like.

[PDub80]

(03-05-2017, 03:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: O-line play was very poor last year.  The best two players on that line are free agents.  Even some one like me who generally defends Alexander's coaching ability has to be extremely concerned with the O-line for '17.

People talk a lot about Palmer's injuries and Bratkowski getting stale, but by far the single biggest reason for the decline of the '05 Bengals was the loss of the O-line.  Every single starter on that line was set to become a free agent within 2 years.  the Bengals stepped up big and paid 4 of the five very well.  I believe that Willie and Levi were the highest paid starting tackles in the league.  the only guy they let go was Steinbach.  Eric was a damn good player, but at that time the contract he got from the Browns made him the second highest paid OG in the NFL. The Bengal just could not pay them all.  But if Anderson, Jones, and Braham don't all suffer career altering injuries in '06-'07, the Bengals would have plugged in Whit at LG and not missed a beat.  Funny how people who bash PA never give him credit for finding a franchise LT like Whitworth late in the second round.

But after using a second round pick on Whit in '06 the Bengal did almost nothing to address the crumbling O-line in the draft.  Over the next 5 years they used only one pick higher than the fourth round on an offensive lineman.  That was Andre Smith in '09 and his first two seasons were marred by injuries.  In the 8 year span from '04 through the Bengals only used 2 picks higher than the fourth round on O-line.  Alexander was forced to re-build most of the line with mid to late round draft picks and undrafted free agents.

My take on Alexander is that he is highly regarded as far as teaching pass protection.  The record seems to bear that out.  You all know my arguments about that by now.  But except for that one freak performance in Jeremy Hill's rookie season our run game has suffered for years.  And despite the fact that Marvin likes to run the ball the NFL has become a passing league.  teams have to take advantage of the rule changes.  So I guess they value Alexander's pass protection advantage more than they worry about our weak running game.

Here is my take on the current situation....

Ogbuehi was shockingly bad, but I am not willing to write him off yet.  He has missed bot training camps, and once the season starts most of the work is in classrooms and walk-throughs.  They want to save the players'  bodies for Sunday so there are not a lot of full speed reps during the week.  And since Og often looked pretty slow for a guy who is supposed to be so quick I think his slowness is due to reaction time instead of slow feet.  He obviously needs to get bigger and stronger, but that should have happened after his rookie year.  Hopefully getting tossed around a bit will embarrass him into really hitting the weights.  But again, getting tossed aside is often the result of being out off balance or lunging due to being out of position.  BUT even though I have hope that Cedric has a break out year there is no way in hell we should go into next season counting on him starting at LT.  We have to either re-sign Whit, use a first or second round pick, or sign at least a mid tier free agent to play LT.  And LTs are so expensive in free agency that even the mid tier guys are expensive.  

Fisher starts somewhere.  Either RT or RG.  They had him playing everywhere as a rookie.  I actually think that stunted his development.  I think he will turn out to be a decent starter.

Zeitler could be gone.  But no way we let both Whit and Zeitler walk.  That would be scary.

Bodine will probably be our starter again, but I bet we use a 3rd or 4th round pick on a center to groom as his replacement.  People act like we have stuck with a bunch of bums at Center for years, but that just is not true. Again I will not how people who hate on PA never give him credit for making a good starter out of a guy like Braham who had been cut by the Cards.  Eric Ghiaciuc was not very good but we only went into two season with him as our opening day starter ('07-'08).  Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent who PA turned into a very good center.  Cook only allowed 4 sacks in his first 48 starts ('09-'11) and was considered one of the top centers in the league by Pat Kirwan  and other experts, but Cook was inured in '12.  He played very poorly in '13 and the Bengals released him while still under contract.  I was not surprised when he struggled as a rookie starter.  If he had been good enough to start as a rookie he would not have lasted to the fourth round.  But he has not improved enough.  Bengals will probably not use a first or second round pick on a center, but look for one in the third or fourth round to possibly start in '18 when Bodine's rookie deal is up.

Boling is soid.

RT could be a mid tier free agent.  Something a step higher then Winston, but nothing too expensive or long term.  I think they still hope that both Fisher and Og will be be starters.  They might even use a 2nd or third round pick on a RT or G.  LT is a first round position, but you can still find some good RT/OG types in the 2nd-3rd.

Rep and, in my opinion, the most well thought out, best post I've ever seen from you and one of the best on this site. Nice work!

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2017, 01:41 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Benton- good points but someone answer this for me.

In a passing league, with an O line coach who appears to excel in pass pro, why does Marvin adopt a run first offense?

I wouldn't say PA excels in pass pro, he is just much better at coaching this up than run blocking.

Funny how run blocking is usually easier to teach to O-lineman and O-lineman usually prefer to run block.

You have to try to stay balanced in the NFL but it is a good question as to why Marv has not pushed for a
new OL coach that can coach up run blocking better. This to me means that PA is a good friend of MB and
Marv has no say over the guy.

[McC]

(03-06-2017, 02:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I wouldn't say PA excels in pass pro, he is just much better at coaching this up than run blocking.

Funny how run blocking is usually easier to teach to O-lineman and O-lineman usually prefer to run block.

You have to try to stay balanced in the NFL but it is a good question as to why Marv has not pushed for a
new OL coach that can coach up run blocking better. This to me means that PA is a good friend of MB and
Marv has no say over the guy.

He's the brother in law who comes with the company when you get hired to run it.  We'll never know if Marvin would fire him if he could or just what being saddled with him has done to Marvin's career.

[Benton]

(03-06-2017, 01:41 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Benton- good points but someone answer this for me.

In a passing league, with an O line coach who appears to excel in pass pro, why does Marvin adopt a run first offense?

Oh, that's easy. Marvin isn't a very good coach.

Not to derail the thread, but it's an issue that's been brought up before. Over the years there's been times we didn't have good runningbacks... so we ran the ball. There's been times we had an outstanding passing game... so we ran the ball. Get to the playoffs off your arm? Switch it up and run the ball until you get behind, then have a QB force throws. There was an article back when Carson was here where he was asked why the team wasn't throwing and his answer was that he didn't know. He and (then OC) Bratkowski wanted to go deep, but that wasn't the plan. Brat was gone shortly after.

But I don't think that's PA's fault. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2017, 03:18 PM)McC Wrote: He's the brother in law who comes with the company when you get hired to run it.  We'll never know if Marvin would fire him if he could or just what being saddled with him has done to Marvin's career.

Sabotage :paul:

[Benton]

(03-06-2017, 01:47 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right, but we hear that the guy is a "HOFer", and yet we see flops, and we see bad play.  The run game has been bad for years.....heck, a decade or better.  I just think his time has passed.  The Pats manage to get Tom Brady up to 10 seconds to throw the ball, our QBs are lucky to get 3.  The Patriots start a 1st rounder at LT, a 3rd at LG, an UNDRAFTED rookie C, a 4th at RG, and a 5th at RT.  Who would you say is a better o line coach?  He's just not as good as advertised, and the split on the topic has led to some rather spirited debates.....to say the least.  Mediocre is a term that comes to mind when I think of him......the Bengals way.

To the first point, having some flops along the way is true of any coach. Belichik will probably go down as a top 5 coach... but not every team he coached was great or even good. LeBeau will probably be considered a top 5 DC... but some of his defenses (and players) were pretty bad. I think when you judge a coach you've got to look at the body of work as opposed to extremes on both ends. And for the most part, I think Alexander has had some good lines over the years. Some better, some worse.

As far as the run game, agreed. But that's not all on the line. A big part of that is on OC's calling the same $@&% running plays, and on the backs making something out of the gap when there is one. And just overall mechanics of the position. Like the last playoff game. The fumble that had the biggest impact wasn't on the lie, it was on the back trying to get a couple more inches and "save the day." Truth is, he should've tucked and just burnt time.

They're the Pats. It's hard to compare anyone to the Pats. You can be ranked #1 and they'll still make you look like amateurs. In the modern era, no team has been better about exposing a team's weakness than the Pats. It's not even about personnel. They can plug anyone in hum along.

[Benton]

(03-06-2017, 02:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Between 2002-2016, the Bengals took 7 o-linemen in the first round. At few points were they ever lacking talent at tackle, the most important position. I don't think the situation was that bad for as long as you claim. 2008-2009 I'd say we were weak at some spots on the line. Other than that, I'd say PA has always had more than enough to work with.


I don't pretend to know what Alexander does behind the scenes, so I just look at production and judge him on that. The fact that we've ranked 20th or worse in YPC for every year since 2006 (sans 2014) is something I put on Paul. Pass protection hasn't been as good as some think. Dalton has helped with that. I look at handpicked guys Paul has failed to get ready or develop. Ogbuehi was the "MVP" of a season where we won 6 fewer games than the previous year. Paul picked that player, coached him "up" and threw him out there.

Any normal team would've fired him for that reason alone. Teams don't brush off entire seasons as if they're no big deal. That's more of a Bengals thing. When you have no accountability, suddenly it's okay if a coach submarines a 12-4 team by drafting one of the worst tackles in history. Not to mention Bodine. Or Fisher. Or how he kept Livings over Mathis. Or the weird fascination he had with Dennis Roland. Or Eric Ghiaciuc.

In short, there's a lot not to like.

Understandable. And if it was me, I'd have fired everyone a few years ago and started from scratch. HC, coordinators, position coaches.

But if we're going to move forward with the people we've got, Alexander isn't the worst of the lot. Our drafting has taken a turn these last few years. I don't know what changed, I thought we added more scouts, which should have improved that.

And the running problem I put more on the other coaches. We had (I think) three RB coaches in four years? Caskey has been the longest since Anderson's retirement, but was he qualified? He was a TE in college and was a staff guy before he took over runningbacks. Since then, we moved away from trying to find older backs with some tread left, but that hasn't exactly panned out.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2017, 02:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Between 2002-2016, the Bengals took 7 o-linemen in the first round. At few points were they ever lacking talent at tackle, the most important position. I don't think the situation was that bad for as long as you claim. 2008-2009 I'd say we were weak at some spots on the line. Other than that, I'd say PA has always had more than enough to work with.


I don't pretend to know what Alexander does behind the scenes, so I just look at production and judge him on that. The fact that we've ranked 20th or worse in YPC for every year since 2006 (sans 2014) is something I put on Paul. Pass protection hasn't been as good as some think. Dalton has helped with that. I look at handpicked guys Paul has failed to get ready or develop. Ogbuehi was the "MVP" of a season where we won 6 fewer games than the previous year. Paul picked that player, coached him "up" and threw him out there.

Any normal team would've fired him for that reason alone. Teams don't brush off entire seasons as if they're no big deal. That's more of a Bengals thing. When you have no accountability, suddenly it's okay if a coach submarines a 12-4 team by drafting one of the worst tackles in history. Not to mention Bodine. Or Fisher. Or how he kept Livings over Mathis. Or the weird fascination he had with Dennis Roland. Or Eric Ghiaciuc.

In short, there's a lot not to like.

Shake, you know whats up.

PA got the Center he wanted, traded up for the guy. He is aguably the worst starting Center in the NFL.

PA got the OT in the first he wanted, we drafted him injured, PA doesn't even coach him up into anything decent
before handing him the starting job at RT. The guy looks terrible and the worst part is he continues to start this
guy to the detriment of the entire team.

Fisher regressed after his rookie year. This is lately.

Sure, PA might of done some good things in the past in working with Whitworth and Boling but lately it is bad.

Bad at coaching and making terrible decisions that hurt the team.

[Joelist]

Whit came in already technically sound. So did Zeitler. In fact, so did Rich Braham - the Bengals picked him up off waivers and he did so well filling in that season (basically off the street) that the Patriots made him a good Free Agent offer that we amazingly matched.

To me, when I think of Alexander I see someone who (until Og) had a decent track record with tackles but a bad track record on the interior line, where the only player he can justly claim to have developed into a passable starter is Boling. We need to remember that before we took Big Z and Boling improved our Guards were spotty. Bobbie Williams came already developed through Free Agency, Whit started out at LG because Levi was still LT but as mentioned already Whit was already proficient when we got him as was Steinbach.

Then there were "guards" like Livings and "centers" like Ghiacuc and Bodine (both of whom PA lobbied hard for). And let's not forget our T/TE Dennis Roland, consuming a roster spot just so we could run unbalanced lines so we could run the ball even a little.

Time to get a fresh perspective in at OL coach.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-06-2017, 04:42 PM)Joelist Wrote: Whit came in already technically sound. So did Zeitler. In fact, so did Rich Braham - the Bengals picked him up off waivers and he did so well filling in that season (basically off the street) that the Patriots made him a good Free Agent offer that we amazingly matched.

To me, when I think of Alexander I see someone who (until Og) had a decent track record with tackles but a bad track record on the interior line, where the only player he can justly claim to have developed into a passable starter is Boling. We need to remember that before we took Big Z and Boling improved our Guards were spotty. Bobbie Williams came already developed through Free Agency, Whit started out at LG because Levi was still LT but as mentioned already Whit was already proficient when we got him as was Steinbach.

Then there were "guards" like Livings and "centers" like Ghiacuc and Bodine (both of whom PA lobbied hard for). And let's not forget our T/TE Dennis Roland, consuming a roster spot just so we could run unbalanced lines so we could run the ball even a little.

Time to get a fresh perspective in at OL coach.

A lot of great points here Joelist.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2017, 03:35 PM)Benton Wrote: To the first point, having some flops along the way is true of any coach. Belichik will probably go down as a top 5 coach... but not every team he coached was great or even good. LeBeau will probably be considered a top 5 DC... but some of his defenses (and players) were pretty bad. I think when you judge a coach you've got to look at the body of work as opposed to extremes on both ends. And for the most part, I think Alexander has had some good lines over the years. Some better, some worse.

As far as the run game, agreed. But that's not all on the line. A big part of that is on OC's calling the same $@&% running plays, and on the backs making something out of the gap when there is one. And just overall mechanics of the position. Like the last playoff game. The fumble that had the biggest impact wasn't on the lie, it was on the back trying to get a couple more inches and "save the day." Truth is, he should've tucked and just burnt time.

They're the Pats. It's hard to compare anyone to the Pats. You can be ranked #1 and they'll still make you look like amateurs. In the modern era, no team has been better about exposing a team's weakness than the Pats. It's not even about personnel. They can plug anyone in hum along.

I get all of that, but I think you're misunderstanding my sentiment.  For years, I've heard all about how great Alexander is, and well respected around the league, yada, yada, yada.  Yet, he seems to need top notch talent to have even decent lines, and has as difficult a time as any average coach would coaching up fringe talent.  If he's so great, I don't understand why a team like the Patriots haven't come after him, or he hasn't been promoted.  He's an average coach, that is starting to show some antiquity in his methods.....not this guru as he's been portrayed by some.  If that were the case, his services would have been in a MUCH bigger demand over a quarter century....just my thoughts.  

Without a FB, the run game has struggled for the better part of a decade.  That's with 4 OCs (2 of which are HCs now), a host of RBs, and a couple of re-shuffles on the line.  When he had good, mostly high draft picks back in 05-07, we could run a little, and Palmer had time.  From 08-10, Palmer got pummeled, and we couldn't run the ball without unbalanced sets.  The same thing is happening to Dalton's line, what saves him is mobility and quick release, things Palmer wasn't known for. I honestly feel Andy has helped mask their shortcomings in pass pro, and they still aren't worth a plug nickel in run blocking.  He's probably not the worst o line coach in the league, but he certainly isn't the best, let alone some sort of mystic in offensive trench play.

[McC]

(03-06-2017, 05:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: I get all of that, but I think you're misunderstanding my sentiment.  For years, I've heard all about how great Alexander is, and well respected around the league, yada, yada, yada.  Yet, he seems to need top notch talent to have even decent lines, and has as difficult a time as any average coach would coaching up fringe talent.  If he's so great, I don't understand why a team like the Patriots haven't come after him, or he hasn't been promoted.  He's an average coach, that is starting to show some antiquity in his methods.....not this guru as he's been portrayed by some.  If that were the case, his services would have been in a MUCH bigger demand over a quarter century....just my thoughts.  

Without a FB, the run game has struggled for the better part of a decade.  That's with 4 OCs (2 of which are HCs now), a host of RBs, and a couple of re-shuffles on the line.  When he had good, mostly high draft picks back in 05-07, we could run a little, and Palmer had time.  From 08-10, Palmer got pummeled, and we couldn't run the ball without unbalanced sets.  The same thing is happening to Dalton's line, what saves him is mobility and quick release, things Palmer wasn't known for. I honestly feel Andy has helped mask their shortcomings in pass pro, and they still aren't worth a plug nickel in run blocking.  He's probably not the worst o line coach in the league, but he certainly isn't the best, let alone some sort of mystic in offensive trench play.

I don't know.  Our trench play was pretty offensive last year.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-06-2017, 05:54 PM)McC Wrote: I don't know.  Our trench play was pretty offensive last year.

:andy: