Bengals PFF Roster Grades

[Okeana]

(03-16-2017, 01:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are entiled to your opinion.  But please explain why your opinion is superior to mine.  What experience do you have in playing, coaching, or scouting football players that gives your opinion any weight or credibility?

I post "facts" to back up my opinion.  Like last year when I educated you all on how well Kirkpatrick really played in '15.

I do the same with MJ.  Based on production he was a top 30 DE last year.  Based on the opinion of professional NFL coaches with years of experience he does not "suck giant donkey balls".  And you have nothing to refute that. 

QB Hurries - MJ Ranks - 47th among all lineman  - 22nd among Defensive Ends    https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2016/

Sack totals Among all Defensive Line players - MJ Ranks 112  / Among DE's 44    https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-sacks-and-sack-yards/2016/

Tackles/Asst Tackles -  Among all lineman - MJ Ranks 262  - Among DE's 21 https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/total-tackles-and-assisted-tackles/2016/customize/

He had zero Fumbles and zero recoveries last year


These stats don't take into consideration level of talent on the defensive line and level of talent in the backfield that increase play duration giving him more overall time than his contemporaries .  Stats don't paint a full picture of a player because of all the other factors that come into play, but in the end of the day do you consider 3.5 sacks and zero fumbles to be an acceptable season for a RDE ?


EDIT:

Just as a quick PFF grade comparison.  Michael Johnson's most important stat as a RDE is sacks.  Compared to every DE Johnson ranked 44 out of 97 which puts him at around 55% among Defensive ends.  So at most you can say his grade should be closer to 55, but even if he has a stat that doesn't mean he won on that play.  For example on his assisted sack last year he could have come in after the sack was established by Atkins or another player.  Without looking at the individual player a stat doesn't give a full picture.

[Hammerstripes]

PFF is a joke. I value our posters opinion's on here 10x what I do theirs. AT least our guys watch every game.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-16-2017, 02:22 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: people want to bash and speak negatively of every aspect of the team right now.... its how it goes every offseason usually

Yeah I guess people have been pissed every offseason that a .500 coach with no playoff wins returns and the team avoids free agents like the plague.

Those types of things tend to not go over well with sports fans for some reason.

[Okeana]

(03-16-2017, 02:34 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: PFF is a joke.  I value our posters opinion's on here 10x what I do theirs.  AT least our guys watch every game.

PFF states they evaluate each play by a player 4 total times before cross referencing a grade.  Are you saying you have proof they don't ?  Which grades do you disagree with ?  Why do you disagree with those grades and provide me proof that the grade is inaccurate

[Okeana]

So test their accuracy based off stats I will evaluate Shawn Williams who I thought was graded a bit high.

PFF Grade 80.6

Tackles/Asst Tackles - Safety - 19 out of 99

Interceptions/Pass Defended - Safety - 29 out of 147

Stuffs / Stuff Yards - Safety - 22 out of 62

I think its pretty clear by these stats that he's easily in the top 20% of Safeties in the NFL and of course this comes with the same disclaimer about stats not showing a full picture of a player

[BenZoo2]

(03-16-2017, 02:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah I guess people have been pissed every offseason that a .500 coach with no playoff wins returns and the team avoids free agents like the plague.

Those types of things tend to not go over well with sports fans for some reason.

Stop making sense shake. My head hurts from this thread. [emoji23]

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-16-2017, 02:57 PM)Okeana Wrote: So test their accuracy based off stats I will evaluate Shawn Williams who I thought was graded a bit high.

PFF Grade 80.6

Tackles/Asst Tackles - Safety - 19 out of 99

Interceptions/Pass Defended - Safety - 29 out of 147

Stuffs / Stuff Yards - Safety - 22 out of 62

I think its pretty clear by these stats that he's easily in the top 20% of Safeties in the NFL and of course this comes with the same disclaimer about stats not showing a full picture of a player

PFF is a well respected source.  If they were terrible, as some on this board claim, they would not be so.  Are they infallible?  Certainly not, but they do give a good overall picture of the player.

[Okeana]

(03-16-2017, 03:10 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: PFF is a well respected source.  If they were terrible, as some on this board claim, they would not be so.  Are they infallible?  Certainly not, but they do give a good overall picture of the player.

I agree and I'm backing up with statistical proof.  

[Socal Bengals fan]

3.5 ***** total sacks for the year!!!! As a pass rushing RDE with Geno n Dunlap constantly getting doubled team. WTF is there an argument. He sucks at football. 3.5 sacks as a RDE is horrible. Especially when he didnt do jack shit as far as fumble caused or int or recoveries. I did see him drop 2 easy pics last year. Anyways he terrible a blind man can see it. Even the shitty Bucs cut the waste of space after one year.

[Okeana]

(03-16-2017, 04:00 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: 3.5 ***** total sacks for the year!!!!   As a pass rushing RDE with Geno n Dunlap constantly getting doubled team.  WTF is there an argument. He sucks at football.   3.5 sacks as a RDE is horrible.  Especially when he didnt do jack shit as far as fumble caused or int or recoveries.   I did see him drop 2 easy pics last year.  Anyways he terrible a blind man can see it.   Even the shitty Bucs cut the waste of space after one year.

  Im still waiting for these magical stats fred was gonna drop.  

[*bengalfan74*]

MJ is a 2nd string RDE at best ! We need an upgrade there badly.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-16-2017, 02:42 PM)Okeana Wrote: PFF states they evaluate each play by a player 4 total times before cross referencing a grade.  Are you saying you have proof they don't ?  Which grades do you disagree with ?  Why do you disagree with those grades and provide me proof that the grade is inaccurate

I disagree with their grades because they have absolutely no idea what a player is supposed to be doing on each play.

The only person that can truly evaluate a player is the coaching staff who knows what the player is supposed to be doing on a given play.  It may be easy for certain positions (cornerback) but who knows what a safety's respsonsibility on each play or what route a WR is supposed to be running or the QB's read progression.

IT's the basic premise of the their ability to actually grade them.

[Hammerstripes]

(03-16-2017, 03:12 PM)Okeana Wrote: I agree and I'm backing up with statistical proof.  

Not really.

[*bfine32*]

(03-16-2017, 01:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Looks like this is going to be another one of those threads where everyone jumps in to bash me, yet not one single person actually posts any stats or info that shows that i am wrong.

Hell, I want to jump in. I'm just not sure what we're proving you wrong about. Is it MJ. Kirkpatrick, or PFF?

[fredtoast]

(03-16-2017, 02:34 PM)Okeana Wrote: QB Hurries - MJ Ranks - 47th among all lineman  - 22nd among Defensive Ends    https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/defensive-hurries/2016/

Sack totals Among all Defensive Line players - MJ Ranks 112  / Among DE's 44    https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/player-sacks-and-sack-yards/2016/

Tackles/Asst Tackles -  Among all lineman - MJ Ranks 262  - Among DE's 21 https://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/total-tackles-and-assisted-tackles/2016/customize/

He had zero Fumbles and zero recoveries last year


These stats don't take into consideration level of talent on the defensive line and level of talent in the backfield that increase play duration giving him more overall time than his contemporaries .  Stats don't paint a full picture of a player because of all the other factors that come into play, but in the end of the day do you consider 3.5 sacks and zero fumbles to be an acceptable season for a RDE ?


EDIT:

Just as a quick PFF grade comparison.  Michael Johnson's most important stat as a RDE is sacks.  Compared to every DE Johnson ranked 44 out of 97 which puts him at around 55% among Defensive ends.  So at most you can say his grade should be closer to 55, but even if he has a stat that doesn't mean he won on that play.  For example on his assisted sack last year he could have come in after the sack was established by Atkins or another player.  Without looking at the individual player a stat doesn't give a full picture.

You can not judge a player on a single stat like sacks.


Among all DEs MJ ranked

10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play),

12th in solo tackles,

14th in tipped passes,

15th in QB hurries

19th in total tackles. 

Since some of these are slightly different from yours I will cite my source when I get back to my other computer.  But it is clear that based on production MJ was a pretty solid starting DE.

[BengalChris]

(03-16-2017, 12:40 PM)Okeana Wrote: I picked this up on a facebook group and figured you guys would like it.  Obviously it doesn't have Andre smith on it yet.  They also have Clarke Listed at DT so take that into account.  

The only surprise is that Williams graded so high. The rest are pretty much expected.

We need one hell of a draft.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-16-2017, 06:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can not judge a player on a single stat like sacks.


Among all DEs MJ ranked

10th in stuffs (tackle for loss on running play),

12th in solo tackles,

14th in tipped passes,

15th in QB hurries

19th in total tackles. 

Since some of these are slightly different from yours I will cite my source when I get back to my other computer.  But it is clear that based on production MJ was a pretty solid starting DE.

The fans want sacks.

[Joelist]

Just the fact that they gave Bodine a 77.4 when he was utterly horrid all year shows PFF ratings need to be taken with a big grain of salt.

[J24]

Is it possible that MJ is a good player but the Bengals still need to add another DE to get a pass rush. They need to cut his snaps but he still can be a good player for us.

[Shake n Blake]

(03-16-2017, 07:09 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The fans want sacks.

Teams want sacks, too. I can't remember many 3.5 sack DE's or rush LB's getting big time contracts on the open market.

There's more to playing DE than sacks and I think most people get that...but sacks aren't something to just shrug off. A sack ends a drive 9 times out of 10.

Takes away a down and yardage. Plus they can rattle the QB.