Zampese Year 2

[GreenCornBengal]

I've seen a lot of discussion about Paul Alexander and the players themselves but I haven't seen much blame directed towards Ken Zampese for last years struggles.

Let's not forget that last year was his first year running the show.

Will he come back this season with a new and more "Zampesey" playbook, or copy Hue's old playbook with a few wrinkles here and there as he did last year?

It will be interesting to see where the offensive scheme goes from here.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(03-16-2017, 11:42 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I've seen a lot of discussion about Paul Alexander and the players themselves but I haven't seen much blame directed towards Ken Zampese for last years struggles.

Let's not forget that last year was his first year running the show.

Will he come back this season with a new and more "Zampesey" playbook, or copy Hue's old playbook with a few wrinkles here and there as he did last year?

It will be interesting to see where the offensive scheme goes from here.

With an offensive line incapable of solid blocking on the pass or the run, you have to throw out 95% of your playbook.  You can run only a few plays with mixed success:  Run plays through A- or B-gaps, delayed draw plays, swing passes, screen passes, quick slants, and that's about it.  Everything else will get blown up before there is time for the play to develop.  

[SunsetBengal]

(03-16-2017, 11:59 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: With an offensive line incapable of solid blocking on the pass or the run, you have to throw out 95% of your playbook.  You can run only a few plays with mixed success:  Run plays through A- or B-gaps, delayed draw plays, swing passes, screen passes, quick slants, and that's about it.  Everything else will get blown up before there is time for the play to develop.  

Wait, you're assuming a lot that there will even be an A or B gap to run through..  I would build an Oline from the inside out, but this team does something different.  I can't really put my finger on what that specifically is, but something..

[GreenCornBengal]

(03-16-2017, 11:59 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: With an offensive line incapable of solid blocking on the pass or the run, you have to throw out 95% of your playbook.  You can run only a few plays with mixed success:  Run plays through A- or B-gaps, delayed draw plays, swing passes, screen passes, quick slants, and that's about it.  Everything else will get blown up before there is time for the play to develop.  

Even with that being true, I can't remember us bringing in TE's to block or putting Hewitt at FB nearly as often as we should have with how poorly the line was playing. Is that an issue the coordinator should be more involved in fixing? I didn't feel that we worked to get around the problem but instead just hoped it would get better. We did finally sit Og later, but it took some time.

[*Go Cards*]

Like Zampese but not sure he is OC material.

But to be fair not sure he has had a legit chance losing his WR's last year and OL this season. So not going to be critical of him.

Think the losses of our quality coaches the last several years is hurting as much as anything.

Zimmer, Gruden, Vance Joseph, Jay Hayes and Hue are major blows in just a few years.

Why does nobody come calling for PA though is beyond me though.

[wolfkaosaun]

(03-17-2017, 12:22 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Like Zampese but not sure he is OC material.

But to be fair not sure he has had a legit chance losing his WR's last year and OL this season. So not going to be critical of him.  

Think the losses of our quality coaches the last several years is hurting as much as anything.

Zimmer, Gruden, Vance Joseph,  Jay Hayes and Hue are major blows in just a few years.

Why does nobody come calling for PA though is beyond me though.

That was for defense, not offense.

We still have the same WR coach. The same RB coach. The same Oline coach. Our QB coach got moved up to OC. They signed an OC as the QB coach. All the changes came on defense. That's where the overhaul was, not offense.

People have been calling for Alexander's head for years.

[Brownshoe]

I hope he improves, but I don't see him doing anything special. I didn't like the way he called plays last year. Personally I thought it was too predictable.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-16-2017, 11:59 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: With an offensive line incapable of solid blocking on the pass or the run, you have to throw out 95% of your playbook.  You can run only a few plays with mixed success:  Run plays through A- or B-gaps, delayed draw plays, swing passes, screen passes, quick slants, and that's about it.  Everything else will get blown up before there is time for the play to develop.  

I have seen an awful lot of blame for the lack of a running game on the offensive line, and much of it is warranted.  However, I have an issue with the personnel and their utilization that certainly didn't help the running game or offense in general.

It starts with Hill.  Virtually never targeted in the passing game until Gio was out injured.  Not very adept at picking up a pass rusher.  So, if I am the opposing defense, I am probably going to use more press coverage and also have my players crowding the line of scrimmage in anticipation of the run. 

With Gio in, almost the opposite is true.  He was clearly the receiver out of the running back tandem and the defense would adjust accordingly.

I never understood, with the talent the Bengals possess at the TE position, why there were so few multiple TE formations that would allow one to stay in to help block.  The Bengals didn't run nearly enough screens, and their TE screen (which is good for 10 yards every time) might have been run a grand total of five times all season...and three were in one game.  Core's vertical speed was never put to good use while AJ was still healthy.  They stayed with Ced O wayyyyy too long at RT.  When Sexy was given his lone chance, the line looked pretty good...so how much of it was Ced and Hill?  

All these things point to inept coaching.  Losing Hue was a tremendous blow. I put Zampese's performance in Year 2 as #1 on the Bengal's list of priorities in the offseason. If his strategy for having Ced at LT next year is to have a bunch of short passes and run the ball, be prepared for a horrible season.  Opposing defenses will love only defending 10 yards of the field.   The offensive line was much better once Ced was benched and I think Smith's power at RG (IF he can stay healthy) will definitely help short yardage.  Ced and Zampese...the 2017 Bengals are in your hands.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-17-2017, 03:02 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: That was for defense, not offense.

We still have the same WR coach. The same RB coach. The same Oline coach. Our QB coach got moved up to OC. They signed an OC as the QB coach. All the changes came on defense. That's where the overhaul was, not offense.

People have been calling for Alexander's head for years.

Hue was an offensive coach and his loss was tremendous.  

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2017, 08:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Hue was an offensive coach and his loss was tremendous.  

But when you look at the numbers from hue's first year as OC compared to Zampese there is not a lot of difference.  Bengals ranked a little higher in yards gained in Zampese's first year, but scored a few more points in Hue's first season. And remember that Hue had been an OC before with other teams nwhile Zampese had never been in that position before.

So anyone whon thinks Hue was something great certainly needs to give Zampese the benefit of the doubt over his first season as OC.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-16-2017, 11:42 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I've seen a lot of discussion about Paul Alexander and the players themselves but I haven't seen much blame directed towards Ken Zampese for last years struggles.

Let's not forget that last year was his first year running the show.

Will he come back this season with a new and more "Zampesey" playbook, or copy Hue's old playbook with a few wrinkles here and there as he did last year?

It will be interesting to see where the offensive scheme goes from here.

When you have a terrible Tackle and a below average Center...it's hard to look good.

Not being able to run the ball really hurts us on offense.

Losing AJ Green does also.

I'm sure the playbook will be more his going into year 2. Coordinators take time to get comfortable.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-17-2017, 08:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But when you look at the numbers from hue's first year as OC compared to Zampese there is not a lot of difference.  Bengals ranked a little higher in yards gained in Zampese's first year, but scored a few more points in Hue's first season. And remember that Hue had been an OC before with other teams nwhile Zampese had never been in that position before.

So anyone whon thinks Hue was something great certainly needs to give Zampese the benefit of the doubt over his first season as OC.

I will give him the benefit of the doubt for one more year.  And I think I have mentioned numerous times a large issue with the predictability of the offense is due to the personnel (Hill = run).  Zampese had to contend with Eifert and AJ being on the field together for just two games (I think) and that is no small issue, given the investment to those two players in the scheme.  

If they can get a burner like Ross by sliding to the middle of round 1, accumulate an extra 2nd rounder to address the Center position (Elflein), get a RB, and keep the majority healhty, Zampese will have no excuses for 2017.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-17-2017, 08:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But when you look at the numbers from hue's first year as OC compared to Zampese there is not a lot of difference.  Bengals ranked a little higher in yards gained in Zampese's first year, but scored a few more points in Hue's first season. And remember that Hue had been an OC before with other teams nwhile Zampese had never been in that position before.

So anyone whon thinks Hue was something great certainly needs to give Zampese the benefit of the doubt over his first season as OC.

This is a fair point, and both OCs worked with depleted WR corps in their first seasons.  It will be interesting to see how Zamp does in his second season with a healthy Eifert and Green, Boyd and Lafell with another year with Andy under their belts, and what he has learned in his first season as OC.

One thing for certain though, the o line will have to perform much better for us to truly gauge his performance.  I'm not a real big fan of the guy, but last season was not a good indicator of what he can do, IMO.

[Au165]

You can hide a lot of flaws on the offensive line with a good downhill running game and then bootlegs and waggles. You will have to move the launch point for Dalton which has the added bonus of being easier throws. I think the gloom and doom stuff is a little over rated. Our O line will be better next year than the one Seattle had on their Super Bowl runs. We need to use the above mentioned strategy along with a lot of smoke screens to slow down rushers. A lot of good teams get away with bad lines through scheming, heck our O line Dalton's rookie year was not good by any means.

[fredtoast]

(03-17-2017, 10:34 AM)Au165 Wrote: You can hide a lot of flaws on the offensive line with a good downhill running game and then bootlegs and waggles. You will have to move the launch point for Dalton which has the added bonus of being easier throws. I think the gloom and doom stuff is a little over rated. Our O line will be better next year than the one Seattle had on their Super Bowl runs. We need to use the above mentioned strategy along with a lot of smoke screens to slow down rushers. A lot of good teams get away with bad lines through scheming, heck our O line Dalton's rookie year was not good by any means.

More shovel passes.








No ninja.

[*Go Cards*]

(03-17-2017, 03:02 AM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: That was for defense, not offense.

We still have the same WR coach. The same RB coach. The same Oline coach. Our QB coach got moved up to OC. They signed an OC as the QB coach. All the changes came on defense. That's where the overhaul was, not offense.

People have been calling for Alexander's head for years.

It was a joke. 

Figured no ninja was necessary since I am one of the PA's more vocal critics on here. 

Besides he is our assistant HC and may assume the role when Marvin leaves. God forbid. 

But hey maybe HC is his calling. Not sold on it being OL coach. 

PS Gruden was offense and responsible for most all of our good offensive draft picks in last 7 years.  He hurt more than his critics will admit.

[OrlandoBengal]

(03-17-2017, 10:34 AM)Au165 Wrote: You can hide a lot of flaws on the offensive line with a good downhill running game and then bootlegs and waggles. You will have to move the launch point for Dalton which has the added bonus of being easier throws. I think the gloom and doom stuff is a little over rated. Our O line will be better next year than the one Seattle had on their Super Bowl runs. We need to use the above mentioned strategy along with a lot of smoke screens to slow down rushers. A lot of good teams get away with bad lines through scheming, heck our O line Dalton's rookie year was not good by any means.

Two problems.  Seattle had Beast Mode and while Dalton is fairly mobile, he is not Russell Wilson in his ability to evade the rush and throw from almost any position.

They also had an absolutely amazing defense which this team does not.

[*Nately120*]

(03-17-2017, 08:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: But when you look at the numbers from hue's first year as OC compared to Zampese there is not a lot of difference.  Bengals ranked a little higher in yards gained in Zampese's first year, but scored a few more points in Hue's first season. And remember that Hue had been an OC before with other teams nwhile Zampese had never been in that position before.

So anyone whon thinks Hue was something great certainly needs to give Zampese the benefit of the doubt over his first season as OC.

I realize you are trying to add some perspective here, but your post also makes a fine argument that Zampese was a lazy and detrimental hire in the first place.  Dalton and AJ won't be around forever, so hopefully we don't hire any more OCs that are clearly going to lead to an predictable one-year plummet in production.

Then again, the damage is done and Zampese was hired so let's hope a guy who was never an OC before and seemed in over his head will turn it around in year 2.

[snowy]

Nately120 Wrote:Then again, the damage is done and Zampese was hired so let's hope a guy who was never an OC before and seemed in over his head will turn it around in year 2.

I'm not expecting a total turnaround, but I'd be okay with real improvement. If the Bengals are going to make such a big deal about valuing versatility, then Zampese can use his versatile players, and use them creatively, instead of cramming them into tiny li'l boxes. A big problem last year was the Bengals' stubborn predictability on offense. 

[Au165]

(03-17-2017, 01:22 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Two problems.  Seattle had Beast Mode and while Dalton is fairly mobile, he is not Russell Wilson in his ability to evade the rush and throw from almost any position.

They also had an absolutely amazing defense which this team does not.

Boots and waggles don't require much athleticism at all, the Ravens have actually done it with Flacco for years especially when Oher was there. As for Beast Mode I think that is why there is some value in drafting a big back who can get 4 yards running straight ahead each carry. As to the defense, our defense will be better next year you could see signs of it as we got to the end of the year.