Browns interested in McCarron per Mary Kay Cabot

[*ochocincos*]

I'm not sure why this thread go to be so many pages....
The debate of McCarron vs Dalton should be clear....
At this moment, McCarron is not better or even quite as good as Dalton. If you want to win now, that's not McCarron.
If you are a team rebuilding, McCarron may be a good fit because he could eventually be better than Dalton. But he's not there right now, and he won't be better than Dalton if he's Dalton's backup.

Bottom line: McCarron has to go to another team to get a shot. He may end up being better than Dalton. Right now, he's not better. Dalton will be the starting QB for the next two years barring injury. If Dalton is injured, McCarron is a good backup, but will not magically take the Bengals to the promised land.

[eoxyod]

The greatest thing about McCarron is that his signature throw in college, which brought the annals of a being a winner, and made people think he could ever be a good player, was a screen pass.

[BigSeph]

(04-13-2017, 04:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So? Try what again? Stating the truth? Okay, Dalton has a much faster release than AJM.

Do you actually believe AJM could become a Tom Brady cause of their sack rate?

Beat up that strawman, chief.

[BigSeph]

(04-13-2017, 04:08 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: But we should take your subjective opinion?  


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I'm the guy posting stats and facts.

The only opinion I've stated, the only area on which we should be arguing at all, is what we think AJM will turn out to be.

We should be able to agree on what he is (a backup QB), whose rate stats are mirrored in his first few games of NFL experience (Tom Brady's), and that he had a higher QB rating in his one playoff game (where everyone says he was so terrible, his 4th start in the NFL) than any playoff game Andy Dalton has ever played.

Those are all facts.

I think that based on those facts, AJM showed a lot of potential and could be a very good NFL QB.

Not much more to it than that.

But it sure does rustle some jimmies around here when you correct the AJM-bashers.

[McC]

(04-13-2017, 03:52 PM)BigSeph Wrote: It was also AJM's first NFL experience, and his sack rate was almost exactly the same as Tom Brady's in his first year of NFL experience.

Try again.

Stop with the Tom Brady comparison.  That is just utter crap and makes you sound like Hobson's little brother.  Your entire stance is based mostly on your speculation.

[Luvnit2]

(04-14-2017, 08:28 AM)McC Wrote: Stop with the Tom Brady comparison.  That is just utter crap and makes you sound like Hobson's little brother.  Your entire stance is based mostly on your speculation.

It seems many of fans think AJM is no more than a back up QB. NP as all are entitled to an opinion. I don't recall him saying AJM was next Tom Brady but provided facts on Brady as a back up. Funny you mention him speculating when in reality it is you doing the speculating.

Some of us think AJM can be a starter in the NFL so he has more value than a career back up! We think the jury is still out (speculation) on if he can be top 10 to 20 or 21 to 32. That is why some feel he commands a 1st round pick or very early 2nd round pick. Factor is in his contact being so team friendly for us or his new team in my opinion ups that value now and he is also very inexpensive in 2018 for a starting QB.

[Beaker]

(04-14-2017, 09:09 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: That is why some feel he commands a 1sr round pick or very early 2nd round pick. 

QBs are always over-valued in trades....Carson Palmer should have taught you that. It's not outside of the realm of possibility for some team to give up a 1 or 2 for AJM. I still think the Bengals should pitch him and our 1st round pick to the 49ers for the #2 pick and go get Solomon Thomas. We can always throw in a later round pick if we have to to make the deal.

[BenZoo2]

(04-14-2017, 09:30 AM)Beaker Wrote: QBs are always over-valued in trades....Carson Palmer should have taught you that. It's not outside of the realm of possibility for some team to give up a 1 or 2 for AJM. I still think the Bengals should pitch him and our 1st round pick to the 49ers for the #2 pick and go get Solomon Thomas. We can always throw in a later round pick if we have to to make the deal.

I think palmers numbers since the trade show he was worth it


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[*Go Cards*]

AJM may turn out to be a good NFL QB or a flop.

But right now he is not even the best back up QB in league.

Guarantee no trade offer will be made for AJM without testing the waters for Garoppolo first.

Hope AJM turns out to be great ! He is a good kid and deserves his shot.

Question if the Browns do trade for him will his biggest fans in this thread become Browns fans ?

[Shake n Blake]

(04-14-2017, 09:58 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I think palmers numbers since the trade show he was worth it

They do, and Palmer had the pedigree and numbers to justify that trade at the time. He was a proven QB still in his prime.

McCarron is a guy who was drafted in the 5th round with 5 games worth of experience. Some of it was surprisingly good. Some of it was eh. Some bad.


Positives:
The game didn't look too big for him. He came in and didn't look lost. He managed a couple wins.
He limited turnovers for the most part.
He showed solid accuracy outside of a few head scratchers.
Was equally adept under center or from shotgun. 

Negatives:
Over his last 3 games, he averaged 5.71, 5.93 and 5.17 yards per attempt. This means he was completing short throws almost exclusively.
He was sacked 15 times in only 160 attempts, fumbling 4 times
Despite holding on to the ball so much, he didn't complete many deep passes. His 3 longest gains went for 66, 47 and 37 yards. Nothing else went over 23 yards. Including the playoff game.
After averaging 376.3 yards per game with Dalton, we averaged a meager 276.8 yards of offense with McCarron. A figure that would've had us ranked dead last in 2015, or 31st in 2016.

Was the performance in this tiny sample size enough to justify coughing up a 1st or 2nd round pick for a guy that every team passed on for 4 or 5 rounds just 3 years ago? Did he really raise his value THAT much after averaging 191 yards and just over 1 TD in his 4 starts? While leading such a weak offensive performance?

[BenZoo2]

(04-14-2017, 01:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: They have, and Palmer had the pedigree and numbers to justify that trade. He was a proven QB still in his prime.

McCarron is a guy who was drafted in the 5th round with 5 games worth of experience. Some of it was surprisingly good. Some of it was eh. Some bad.


Positives:
The game didn't look too big for him. He came in and didn't look lost. He managed a couple wins.
He limited turnovers for the most part.
He showed solid accuracy outside of a few head scratchers.
Was equally adept under center or from shotgun. 

Negatives:
Over his last 3 games, he averaged 5.71, 5.93 and 5.17 yards per attempt. This means he was completing short throws almost exclusively.
He was sacked 15 times in only 160 attempts, fumbling 4 times
Despite holding on to the ball so much, he didn't complete many deep passes. His 3 longest gains went for 66, 47 and 37 yards. Nothing else went over 23 yards. Including the playoff game.

Was the performance in these 5 games enough to justify coughing up a 1st or 2nd round pick for a guy that every team passed on for 4 or 5 rounds just 3 years ago? Did he really raise his value THAT much after averaging 191 yards and just over 1 TD in his 4 starts?

I think aj could prove to be a competent NFL starter with experience. I don't think he would ever be elite. I think his ceiling is 16-20. He's cheap for 2 years. Given the haul that Cleveland and Tennessee got last year I think a 2 and 3 is minimum and really a pair of seconds seem reasonable for aj. I think the bengals holding out for a 1 is unreasonable. Of course that's just my opinion


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[*Go Cards*]

On Espn's draft simulation show last night the Browns took Garrett at #1 while planning to trade up and get Trubisky a few picks later but were jumped by the Jets I believe.

Anyway they then tried to trade their #33 pick to Bengals while on the clock at #12 which the Bengals declined quickly.

Hoping the Bengals pounce if it pans out this way. Pick #33 may as well be a 1st round pick and the Bengals could really use another pick that early and would still have another selection 8 picks later.

Giving them 3 selections in the first 41 picks.

Would be sweet and we already have another back up in place making it not too pressing.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-14-2017, 02:10 PM)Go Cards Wrote: On Espn's draft simulation show last night the Browns took Garrett at #1 while planning to trade up and get Trubisky a few picks later but were jumped by the Jets I believe.

Anyway they then tried to trade their #33 pick to Bengals while on the clock at #12 which the Bengals declined quickly.

Hoping the Bengals pounce if it pans out this way. Pick #33 may as well be a 1st round pick and the Bengals could really use another pick that early and would still have another selection 8 picks later.

Giving them 3 selections in the first 41 picks.  

Would be sweet and we already have another back up in place making it not too pressing.

I would find it assinine not to take the 33rd pick in the draft for a 5th round backup QB that holds the ball too long...

Sure, he is a good backup, but a backup is a backup is a backup.

[Beaker]

(04-14-2017, 09:58 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I think palmers numbers since the trade show he was worth it


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Not his numbers with the raiders...who are the ones that made the trade.

[BenZoo2]

(04-14-2017, 03:29 PM)Beaker Wrote: Not his numbers with the raiders...who are the ones that made the trade.

Palmer has shown he was still capable of playing at a high level. Who knows what would have happened in Oakland with him and hue.


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[wolfkaosaun]

(04-13-2017, 03:52 PM)BigSeph Wrote: It was also AJM's first NFL experience, and his sack rate was almost exactly the same as Tom Brady's in his first year of NFL experience.

Try again.

Brady started in 14 games in his first NFL playing time. Including playoffs, he started in 3 more games. So he started for 17 games and was sacked 46 times. His sack average was 2.7.

McCarron started in 4 games, however, came in after one series for the Steelers game. So can include that. So in 5 games he was sacked 15 times. His sack average was 3.

Now, there's something you're overlooking. The Patriots offensive line wasn't good. Even before Brady came in, in 2000 they gave up 48 sacks. In the 2 games that Bledsoe started, he was sacked 5 times. So the offensive line gave up 51 sacks that season as well. So between 2000 and 2001, the Patriots gave up 99 sacks in 2 seasons. I'm not throwing in 1999 because that would add ANOTHER 56 sacks. And 2002 they went down with 31, which isn't bad. But that offensive line struggled a lot and it gets overlooked.

In 2015, the Bengals gave up 20 sacks with Andy Dalton starting for 13 games (12 and one series technically since the Steelers game he got hurt). In 2014, they gave up 26 sacks including the playoffs. Andy Dalton only had 24 sacks that year. In 2013, the Bengals gave up 29 sacks, 32 if you include playoffs.

So you would have to go 3 years of Andy Dalton's sack average to get to the Patriots sack average for those 2 years.

Brady won IN SPITE of the offensive line. McCarron had more help around him that Brady did.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-14-2017, 03:43 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: Brady started in 14 games in his first NFL playing time. Including playoffs, he started in 3 more games. So he started for 17 games and was sacked 46 times. His sack average was 2.7.

McCarron started in 4 games, however, came in after one series for the Steelers game. So can include that. So in 5 games he was sacked 15 times. His sack average was 3.

Now, there's something you're overlooking. The Patriots offensive line wasn't good. Even before Brady came in, in 2000 they gave up 48 sacks. In the 2 games that Bledsoe started, he was sacked 5 times. So the offensive line gave up 51 sacks that season as well. So between 2000 and 2001, the Patriots gave up 99 sacks in 2 seasons. I'm not throwing in 1999 because that would add ANOTHER 56 sacks. And 2002 they went down with 31, which isn't bad. But that offensive line struggled a lot and it gets overlooked.

In 2015, the Bengals gave up 20 sacks with Andy Dalton starting for 13 games (12 and one series technically since the Steelers game he got hurt). In 2014, they gave up 26 sacks including the playoffs. Andy Dalton only had 24 sacks that year. In 2013, the Bengals gave up 29 sacks, 32 if you include playoffs.

So you would have to go 3 years of Andy Dalton's sack average to get to the Patriots sack average for those 2 years.

Brady won IN SPITE of the offensive line. McCarron had more help around him that Brady did.

Great post with stats to back up what most of us thought. Well done Wolf.

[McC]

(04-14-2017, 09:09 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It seems many of fans think AJM is no more than a back up QB. NP as all are entitled to an opinion. I don't recall him saying AJM was next Tom Brady but provided facts n Brady as a back up. Funny you mention him speculating when in reality it is you doing the speculating.

Some of us think AJM can be a starter in the NFL so he has more value than a career back up! We think the jury is still out (speculation) on if he can be top 10 to 20 or 21 to 32. That is why some feel he commands a 1sr round pick or very early 2nd round pick. Factor is in his contact being so team friendly for us or his new team in my opinion ups that value now and he is also very inexpensive in 2018 for a starting QB.

I didn't speculate about anything, so stfu on that.

[Beaker]

(04-14-2017, 03:34 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Who knows what would have happened in Oakland with him and hue.  

We know what happened...oakland kept losing, palmer got traded again, and hue was fired.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-14-2017, 08:08 PM)Beaker Wrote: We know what happened...oakland kept losing, palmer got traded again, and hue was fired.

Palmer was worth what he was traded for. Oakland's dysfunction doesn't = Palmer not being worth a 1st and 2nd at 31 years old with plenty of solid years left.