Good article on MMQB this morning ....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-04-2017, 02:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think you'll find a person on here that thinks Dalton is on the level as those 3...but 29 teams have starting QB's not named Brady, Rodgers or Ben (who I think is lucky to be mentioned with these 2). So why make that the emphasis for this story? All QBs (even the elite 3 he mentioned) need talent and good coaching around them. It really has nothing to do with Andy's arm (which is good enough), where he was drafted (Carr, Preskott, Brees and Brady were all taken later), or his ability to lead a team. 

Why make the narrative that Dalton essentially needs to be propped up by talent around him? If it were any other QB, they would just be calling it what it is: surrounding a good QB with quality pieces to help him be successful. All teams try to do the same. Btw, I haven't seen the national media call out the Bengals line (or failure to address it during the offseason) the way they have for Russell Wilson... or Andrew Luck in the past.

I disagree with the way he worded a lot of things in that article.  He may not have intended for things to come off the way they did, but the wording suggests otherwise.  

[Marlon23]

The Bengals’ brass would never say this publicly, but they know exactly what Andy Dalton is: a cerebral QB whose arm, at its best, is good but not great. Dalton, in other words, must be your offense’s facilitator, not its playmaker. He’s not Brady, Roethlisberger or Rodgers. He can’t be asked to carry the show.


This statement is Truth. However, Andy Dalton is a solid QB. Us not winning the playoffs, had a lot of factors not just Andy Dalton. However this article seems to think new draft picks are going to make the difference, well we have had fire power on the offense, except last year. So we must wait and see what he does with this new group. However, like I have been saying if it is not done this year, Andy will have some competition at QB I do believe.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-04-2017, 12:24 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Benoit is really good at what he does.

That said, I agree with his sentiment that Dalton is not Rodgers, Roethlisberger or Brady. If I counted right, that's eight rings, 11 Super Bowls and 4 MVPs? So, what he's saying is - Andy Dalton is not "elite," right. Not a HOFer? I can roll with that. What that means is yes, he's better off with great talent around him. So is every QB. Rodgers and Brady prove how great they really are with the subpar lines and targets they've had over the years.

Like when Aaron Rogers had a 60% completion % and threw for 3800 yards in 2015 (400 fewer than Dalton did last year)?  He lost Jordy Nelson.  Ouch.  Try losing AJ Green, Gio, and Eifert...  And when was the last time you saw Brady actually take a few hits in a game?  I will tell you when....it was in games they LOST.  He has had excellent protection over the years.  Subpar my ass. 

This proves the point that you get a pass on those things once you win a Super Bowl, which is stupid because Brady was little more than a game manager when he won his first Super Bowl.  Ditto Piggy...actually, he was just supposed to not be horrible and they would win.

Dalton has been asked to do way more with less ever since he arrived to a team that was supposed to go 0-16.  Heading in to his SEVENTH year, they invest in another elite offensive weapon to pair with AJ Green.  Carson Palmer had Chad, TJ, Henry, Rudi, and an excellent offensive line.  He made a whopping two playoff games, and lost them both.  

Dalton's stats are almost identical to Brady and Mannings at this point in his career.  Now, he will take the next step.  All that needs to happen is he has Ross, Eifert, and AJ for the entire season and at least one RB not averaging less than 3 ypc.

[PDub80]

(05-04-2017, 07:31 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Like when Aaron Rogers had a 60% completion % and threw for 3800 yards in 2015 (400 fewer than Dalton did last year)?  He lost Jordy Nelson.  Ouch.  Try losing AJ Green, Gio, and Eifert...  And when was the last time you saw Brady actually take a few hits in a game?  I will tell you when....it was in games they LOST.  He has had excellent protection over the years.  Subpar my ass. 

This proves the point that you get a pass on those things once you win a Super Bowl, which is stupid because Brady was little more than a game manager when he won his first Super Bowl.  Ditto Piggy...actually, he was just supposed to not be horrible and they would win.

Dalton has been asked to do way more with less ever since he arrived to a team that was supposed to go 0-16.  Heading in to his SEVENTH year, they invest in another elite offensive weapon to pair with AJ Green.  Carson Palmer had Chad, TJ, Henry, Rudi, and an excellent offensive line.  He made a whopping two playoff games, and lost them both.  

Dalton's stats are almost identical to Brady and Mannings at this point in his career.  Now, he will take the next step.  All that needs to happen is he has Ross, Eifert, and AJ for the entire season and at least one RB not averaging less than 3 ypc.

I disagree with a lot of your points here.

- AJ Green & Tyler Eifert are top 3 at their skill positions in the entire NFL and have been for years. Andy has had a strong, and at some positions elite cast around him. It's not as if every year AD loses all of these options in the post season, while other QBs have them all and therefore they win.
- The O-line was very good until last season for the entire time Dalton has been in Cincy. This narrative that he has been sacked a bunch throughout his career is bullshit. He got beat up badly for just this last season. Up until then the line has been very good.
- The Defense AD has had has been MUCH MUCH better than anything Carson had. Not even close.
- ST has been better while AD has been on the team.

- The playoff lose to INDY is a throw away in my book. That's not on AD at all.
- The SD playoff game... I wouldn't blame him if he wakes up in a hot panic over that game for the rest of his life. That was gross to watch and 100% on him, IMO.
- The other playoff loses had putrid performances turned in by AD, and were all potentially winable with better QB play. These have been spoken on ad nauseam.

AD's stats are similar, with the exception of the fact that those other QBs you mention: Rogers, Brady, Manning, have all produced in the playoffs in big ways. AD hasn't. It's been quite the opposite. He has been HORRIFIC in the playoffs. I mean, freaking disgusting. That's the fact of it, no matter how much I like the guy as a person and as a player.

None of the stat comparisons actually matter without post season success, which is what the great QBs have. Lots of QBs have won with injured guys. Lots of them. Brady was a game manager... who managed the games to some Superbowls. THAT'S a huge difference. And now he's the greatest QB of all time.

AD is still looking for a singular playoff victory. Who cares what his reg seasons look like? The Bengals have enough talent to win in the post season. The QB needs to bring his game up to make it happen.

^ Look, this is all in the past. I mean... years ago. None of it matters. Andy Dalton CAN do it. He just hasn't. His career will be defined by on if he can take his potential and realize it. It's a team game, yes, but the QB position is the most influential in all of sports. It begins and ends with AD. Even though it might not sound like it in the above stuff I wrote, I think AD CAN do it. There's a lot of upside and career left for him. I'm just not going to rewrite the history and careers of other guys when comparing them to him. Barring catastrophic injury, lots of football left for AD to play!

[J24]

(05-04-2017, 07:31 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Like when Aaron Rogers had a 60% completion % and threw for 3800 yards in 2015 (400 fewer than Dalton did last year)?  He lost Jordy Nelson.  Ouch.  Try losing AJ Green, Gio, and Eifert...  And when was the last time you saw Brady actually take a few hits in a game?  I will tell you when....it was in games they LOST.  He has had excellent protection over the years.  Subpar my ass. 

This proves the point that you get a pass on those things once you win a Super Bowl, which is stupid because Brady was little more than a game manager when he won his first Super Bowl.  Ditto Piggy...actually, he was just supposed to not be horrible and they would win.

Dalton has been asked to do way more with less ever since he arrived to a team that was supposed to go 0-16.  Heading in to his SEVENTH year, they invest in another elite offensive weapon to pair with AJ Green.  Carson Palmer had Chad, TJ, Henry, Rudi, and an excellent offensive line.  He made a whopping two playoff games, and lost them both.  

Dalton's stats are almost identical to Brady and Mannings at this point in his career.  Now, he will take the next step.  All that needs to happen is he has Ross, Eifert, and AJ for the entire season and at least one RB not averaging less than 3 ypc.

Brady Really hasn't had the greatest offensive lines over the years but the WR core has been severely underrated around him and you Could say the same thing about Rodgers.

[BigSeph]

(05-03-2017, 01:15 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: to bad he cant win them all by himself or we would probly have a few wins by now.

In 4 career playoff starts, Andy's best QB rating was 67.

If he was passing for 300/3/0, you might have a point here.

Tom Brady has had 28 playoff games with a rating above 67, and 6 with worse than 67.

In the games where his rating was < 67, he's 3-3.  In the games where it's above 67, he's 22-6.

Brady has a 63:31 career playoff TD:INT ratio.  Andy has a 1:6.

Just saying....

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-04-2017, 08:51 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - AJ Green & Tyler Eifert are top 3 at their skill positions in the entire NFL and have been for years. Andy has had a strong, and at some positions elite cast around him. It's not as if every year AD loses all of these options in the post season, while other QBs have them all and therefore they win.

Quote:You are correct about their talent level.  And what has Andy done the one season he had both of them?  He had a QB rating over 100, was being talked about as league MVP, and was 8-0 that season. 

- The Defense AD has had has been MUCH MUCH better than anything Carson had. Not even close.
- ST has been better while AD has been on the team.

Quote:I am confused.  How does this make Andy have more weapons?  And how does this effect the health of said weapons?

.
- The SD playoff game... I wouldn't blame him if he wakes up in a hot panic over that game for the rest of his life. That was gross to watch and 100% on him, IMO.

Quote:Andy had two INTs and a costly fumble.  He clearly had a poor game, but I still believe they were in position to win that game when Gio fumbled inside the 10 yard line.  Andy also had 332 yards passing, and another 24 rushing.  His offensive line was getting pummeled and the defense couldn't stop the run.  

- The other playoff loses had putrid performances turned in by AD, and were all potentially winable with better QB play. These have been spoken on ad nauseam.

Quote:They have been spoken of ad nauseam.  I will disagree about the Colts game.  That game was the very definition of no weapons.  

AD's stats are similar, with the exception of the fact that those other QBs you mention: Rogers, Brady, Manning, have all produced in the playoffs in big ways. AD hasn't. It's been quite the opposite. He has been HORRIFIC in the playoffs. I mean, freaking disgusting. That's the fact of it, no matter how much I like the guy as a person and as a player.

None of the stat comparisons actually matter without post season success, which is what the great QBs have. Lots of QBs have won with injured guys. Lots of them. Brady was a game manager... who managed the games to some Superbowls. THAT'S a huge difference. And now he's the greatest QB of all time.

AD is still looking for a singular playoff victory. Who cares what his reg seasons look like? The Bengals have enough talent to win in the post season. The QB needs to bring his game up to make it happen.

^ Look, this is all in the past. I mean... years ago. None of it matters. Andy Dalton CAN do it. He just hasn't. His career will be defined by on if he can take his potential and realize it. It's a team game, yes, but the QB position is the most influential in all of sports. It begins and ends with AD. Even though it might not sound like it in the above stuff I wrote, I think AD CAN do it. There's a lot of upside and career left for him. I'm just not going to rewrite the history and careers of other guys when comparing them to him. Barring catastrophic injury, lots of football left for AD to play!

You are absolutely correct with these final statements, but I don't like how Dalton seems to get the blame for lackluster defensive play and a lack of weapons in the postseason.  You can say "it always falls on the QB", but at the same time, people don't give him the credit for getting the team there.  I don't know.  The playoff losses are incredible frustrating, and maybe that is why Dalton is so vilified.  Regardless, I have seem what he is capable of in situations when he has a solid corps of weapons and I am not going to let people say that crap about him not having a strong arm or that he just isn't anything more than an average QB.  That's my opinion.  I have no doubts he will win over the rest of the world as he did a majority of folks on here.  I can't wait to see what he does this year.  

[Shake n Blake]

(05-04-2017, 08:51 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I disagree with a lot of your points here.

1.  AJ Green & Tyler Eifert are top 3 at their skill positions in the entire NFL and have been for years. Andy has had a strong, and at some positions elite cast around him. It's not as if every year AD loses all of these options in the post season, while other QBs have them all and therefore they win.
2.  The O-line was very good until last season for the entire time Dalton has been in Cincy. This narrative that he has been sacked a bunch throughout his career is bullshit. He got beat up badly for just this last season. Up until then the line has been very good.
3. The Defense AD has had has been MUCH MUCH better than anything Carson had. Not even close.
4.  ST has been better while AD has been on the team.

- The playoff lose to INDY is a throw away in my book. That's not on AD at all.
5. The SD playoff game... I wouldn't blame him if he wakes up in a hot panic over that game for the rest of his life. That was gross to watch and 100% on him, IMO.
6.  The other playoff losses had putrid performances turned in by AD, and were all potentially winable with better QB play. These have been spoken on ad nauseam.

AD's stats are similar, with the exception of the fact that those other QBs you mention: Rogers, Brady, Manning, have all produced in the playoffs in big ways. AD hasn't. It's been quite the opposite. He has been HORRIFIC in the playoffs. I mean, freaking disgusting. That's the fact of it, no matter how much I like the guy as a person and as a player.

1. You have to look at it on a year-to-year basis.

2011- 27th in yards per carry, top receivers were AJ Green, Jerome Simpson and Gresham. Is this an elite cast? 
2012- 20th in yards per carry, top receivers were AJ Green, and a 3 headed trio of Armon Binns and rookie Sanu and MLJ. Plus Gresham. Meh.
2013- 28th in yards per carry, top receiver were AJ Green, MLJ + Gresham and Eifert. Great receivers and awful rush attack? Elite?
2014- 12th in yards per carry, AJ Green missed 4 games, MLJ and Eifert missed the entire season, Gresham averaged 7.4 YPC. Ugly.
2015- 23rd in yards per carry, AJ Green, MLJ, Sanu, Eifert. This was clearly the best season, but the run game was still weak.
2016- 23rd in yards per carry, AJ Green missed 7 games, Eifert missed 8 games, Gio missed 6 games. LaFell and rookie Boyd. Ugly.

2. Well...excpept for 2012, when he was sacked 46 times (3rd in NFL). This was when the coaches asked Dalton to hold on to the ball longer and make "unscripted plays" which I feel exposed the pass blocking a bit.

3. Well...except for 2009, when Palmer had the 4th ranked defense in the NFL, and proceeded to pass for 146 yards and a 58.3 rating in the first round playoff loss.

4. If you say so. Shayne Graham was the most accurate kicker in Bengals history. 

5. Andy didn't cause Gio to have a key fumble that cost us at least 3 points, and he didn't allow 27 points on defense. If the defense only allowed 15 points (like they had for McCarron for 3.95 quarters), then I'm sure Dalton could've led a few more FG drives. Instead, we had to abandon the run and go for only TD's, because we were down by double digits for the entire 4th quarter. I'm not blaming these guys entirely...just saying it wasn't "100% on Dalton".

6. They were all potentially winnable if the team played better. That includes Andy Dalton, but isn't exclusive to him.
--------------------------------------

The entire team has been disgusting in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis. So have 3 other QBs (Kitna, Palmer, McCarron). 

(05-05-2017, 02:06 AM)BigSeph Wrote: In 4 career playoff starts, Andy's best QB rating was 67.

If he was passing for 300/3/0, you might have a point here.

Tom Brady has had 28 playoff games with a rating above 67, and 6 with worse than 67.

In the games where his rating was < 67, he's 3-3.  In the games where it's above 67, he's 22-6.

Brady has a 63:31 career playoff TD:INT ratio.  Andy has a 1:6.

Just saying....

Thanks for pointing out that the Patriots are 3-3 in games where Brady has a rating of 67 or below. That just helps prove that teams can win when the QB has a bad day at the office. Heck, we "almost" won when McCarron posted a 68.3 which is nearly identical to the rating Dalton posted against the Chargers.

[BigSeph]

(05-05-2017, 01:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Thanks for pointing out that the Patriots are 3-3 in games where Brady has a rating of 67 or below. That just helps prove that teams can win when the QB has a bad day at the office. Heck, we "almost" won when McCarron posted a 68.3 which is nearly identical to the rating Dalton posted against the Chargers.

That was in response to someone claiming that Andy can't win them all by himself.

Andy hasn't had a single playoff game in his life where you would say "Well Andy dominated today, but the rest of the team let him down."

[Shake n Blake]

(05-06-2017, 02:48 AM)BigSeph Wrote: That was in response to someone claiming that Andy can't win them all by himself.

Andy hasn't had a single playoff game in his life where you would say "Well Andy dominated today, but the rest of the team let him down."

You won't get any argument from me. Andy (like everyone else) has been awful in the playoffs.

[bengalhoel]

(05-04-2017, 10:32 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Ugh. You're right. Teams are going to bring the heat early to see how this patchwork line handles it.


I was mostly irritated that I clicked the link fully expecting a good article from MMQB on Ross/Mixon, and instead was treated to a thinly-disguised Dalton smear article regurgitating the same tired narratives about arm strength and where he was drafted. As if either of those things ever stopped Brady, Montana or Brees.

I must be watching a different QB than everyone else because when I watch Dalton throw it seems like he has plenty of arm strength. As of matter of fact, he looks like he throws it too hard sometimes.

[bengalhoel]

(05-05-2017, 02:06 AM)BigSeph Wrote: In 4 career playoff starts, Andy's best QB rating was 67.

If he was passing for 300/3/0, you might have a point here.

Tom Brady has had 28 playoff games with a rating above 67, and 6 with worse than 67.

In the games where his rating was < 67, he's 3-3.  In the games where it's above 67, he's 22-6.

Brady has a 63:31 career playoff TD:INT ratio.  Andy has a 1:6.

Just saying....

1988 Boomer Esiason Playoff stats: 29-64 45.3%  1 TD 3 Ints.  Benglas 2-1 40 seconds of winning the Super Bowl

[PDub80]

(05-05-2017, 01:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. You have to look at it on a year-to-year basis.

2011- 27th in yards per carry, top receivers were AJ Green, Jerome Simpson and Gresham. Is this an elite cast? 
2012- 20th in yards per carry, top receivers were AJ Green, and a 3 headed trio of Armon Binns and rookie Sanu and MLJ. Plus Gresham. Meh.
2013- 28th in yards per carry, top receiver were AJ Green, MLJ + Gresham and Eifert. Great receivers and awful rush attack? Elite?
2014- 12th in yards per carry, AJ Green missed 4 games, MLJ and Eifert missed the entire season, Gresham averaged 7.4 YPC. Ugly.
2015- 23rd in yards per carry, AJ Green, MLJ, Sanu, Eifert. This was clearly the best season, but the run game was still weak.
2016- 23rd in yards per carry, AJ Green missed 7 games, Eifert missed 8 games, Gio missed 6 games. LaFell and rookie Boyd. Ugly.

2. Well...excpept for 2012, when he was sacked 46 times (3rd in NFL). This was when the coaches asked Dalton to hold on to the ball longer and make "unscripted plays" which I feel exposed the pass blocking a bit.

3. Well...except for 2009, when Palmer had the 4th ranked defense in the NFL, and proceeded to pass for 146 yards and a 58.3 rating in the first round playoff loss.

4. If you say so. Shayne Graham was the most accurate kicker in Bengals history. 

5. Andy didn't cause Gio to have a key fumble that cost us at least 3 points, and he didn't allow 27 points on defense. If the defense only allowed 15 points (like they had for McCarron for 3.95 quarters), then I'm sure Dalton could've led a few more FG drives. Instead, we had to abandon the run and go for only TD's, because we were down by double digits for the entire 4th quarter. I'm not blaming these guys entirely...just saying it wasn't "100% on Dalton".

6. They were all potentially winnable if the team played better. That includes Andy Dalton, but isn't exclusive to him.
--------------------------------------

The entire team has been disgusting in the playoffs under Marvin Lewis. So have 3 other QBs (Kitna, Palmer, McCarron). 



Thanks for pointing out that the Patriots are 3-3 in games where Brady has a rating of 67 or below. That just helps prove that teams can win when the QB has a bad day at the office. Heck, we "almost" won when McCarron posted a 68.3 which is nearly identical to the rating Dalton posted against the Chargers.

Edited due to douchey phrasing....

Your rebuttal and points are thin here and a bit reaching.

To your points...

1: Every player around AD has to be top tier elite for him to succeed in the playoffs? I disagree. He seems to be fine during the regular season with those players.

Also, not every team with post season success has ultra elite, healthy guys at every spot at the end of the year. AD has to have that? This path of logic seems like an excuse more than a factor or reason. You can't have it both ways.

The poo-pooing of the team around AD is unreasonable and, I think, quite slanted for the purpose of shifting blame. The Colts loss can't be placed on Andy Dalton, IMO, because the team was decimated and not representative of what the Bengals were that season. Other than that, the talent around AD in the playoffs has been excellent. Not every unit is going to be top shelf, at it's best all the time. Especially at the end of the year. If AD needs that to succeed, then he really isn't going to be the answer to anything meaningful.

2. AD has played 6 seasons. There are 2 where the line wasn't good. Even with that line in 2012, they made the playoffs. Also, not all sacks are on the O-line. This information doesn't tell the whole story and is incomplete. Again, slanted and misdirecting to serve your purpose. There is more data needed here to actually draw a conclusion on 2012's O-line performance.

3. Carson had a great defense ONCE in his entire time in Cincy. When he did, the team was playing terribly towards the end of that season and got smoked by a hot Jets team. You put down AD's WRs above and then bring this game up where Carson had an awful cast: Chad, Coles, Cosby, Simpson were the top 4 WRs on that team. That's much worse than any group AD has had. It's unreasonable to point to AD's cast, bring up Carson's D ONE season, then circle that back without taking Carson's cast into consideration.

4. Special Teams as a whole is much much more than a kicker. The Bengals ST units since AD got here in 2011 are much better than they were in the mid 2000s - which was my point. Bringing up one guy, a kicker, to try and deconstruct that is, again, misdirecting for the sake of manufacturing a rebuttal. The ST units for the Bengals are excllent. Huber is outstanding. The return game is better. Everything is better BUT the kicker. I blame the kicker for a large portion of lasts season's woes, NOT AD. I think AD played well enough.

5. AD's performance in the SD playoff game is indefensible. You trying to point to a late fumble by Bernard as a reason for the loss is just not right or a fair perspective. The Bengals D played great in that game up until ADs back.... to back... to BACK turn overs on 3 consecutive possessions - IN BENGALS TERRITORY.

Again, super bias - as if you're looking for excuses for AD - to blame the D for giving up points in that game compared to the Stealers game, where McCarron kept them in it by not stinking (in relation to AD in the SD playoff game... basically the opposite).

The telling play that game, to me, was when AD dove on the ground and coughed it up untouched. He was filling his pants the whole 2nd half. He was THAT bad. The Bengals were in position to take that game and AD gave it away in the 3rd quarter. Period. Here, go back and read the play by play of it and try not to puke...

Go ahead and scroll down to after the first half. Bengals up 7-10.
1st possession 2nd half: PUNT
2nd: FUMBLE
3rd: Awful INT
4th: Awful INT
Each one of those giveaways in Bengals territory led to SD points and losing the lead.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=340105004

I appreciate AD being the QB of the Bengals very much, but I refuse to baby him baby him or be short sighted over how he has played in the playoffs.

^ The above being said, anyone calling AD a bum, complaining about his arm strength, etc. etc. or saying that he CAN'T do it, are on the opposite side of irrational. Andy Dalton is a really good QB. He is a step away from being a GREAT QB and that step is multiple post season wins. He CAN do it. He just hasn't. All the tools are there.

Lastly,

The notion that the entire team has been bad under Marvin in the playoffs isn't correct. The defenses have had good games and the Bengals have had leads. In recent history, AD has not been able to overcome his own mistakes or make the players around him better in the playoffs. QB is the most influential, singularly important position in all of team sports for THAT reason. He isn't an equal participant or and equal part of the equation. He is THE most important by multitudes. He makes the most money because he makes the team go, he gets the glory and the blame if they fail. Blaming every single thing around him, BUT HIM, or treating the players as equal parts are just apologistic notions from the hearts of fans. He has the most influence and should get the most blame. And if he had played lights out and they had lost, NOBODY would be on his case. But that isn't reality.

The fact that Brady is 3-3 WITH terrible performances doesn't mean that AD gets off the hook or that TB's team bailed him out (sometimes the guys around him have made great plays, yes... see superbowl vs Seahawks). It could also mean that in crunch time, Brady picked his game up. JUST LIKE MCCARRON DID. In the moments needed, great QBs come through. AD hasn't done that... yet. So to say he's great or be sensitive towards people who beat on him a little is fanboyish.

AD can be polarizing to fans. Some are hyper hyper sensitive to any criticism of AD and become apologists and others are hyper sensitive to heaps of praise and grandeur, becoming haters. I didn't see the article as unfairly bashing him at all. Fact is, AD's stunk in the playoffs, despite having one of the most talented rosters in the NFL around him, but that isn't the nail in the coffin to his career. Lots left to play.

[BigSeph]

(05-06-2017, 01:38 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: 1988 Boomer Esiason Playoff stats: 29-64 45.3%  1 TD 3 Ints.  Benglas 2-1 40 seconds of winning the Super Bowl

Played Dave Krieg (56.8 rating) - WON

Played Jim Kelly (35.1 rating) - WON

Played Joe Montana (115.2 rating) - LOST

Pattern seems fairly obvious.

[bengalhoel]

(05-07-2017, 12:40 AM)BigSeph Wrote: Played Dave Krieg (56.8 rating) - WON

Played Jim Kelly (35.1 rating) - WON

Played Joe Montana (115.2 rating) - LOST

Pattern seems fairly obvious.

My point was that despite bad QB play other areas of our team stepped up and won games. Boomer could have easily been considered a failure if we would have lost one of the first two games but nobody blames him.

He had one decent playoff performance against the Oilers and he only made the playoffs twice but because our team made it to the Super Bowl he doesn't take the heat like Andy Dalton does.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-06-2017, 02:21 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Edited due to douchey phrasing....

Your rebuttal and points are thin here and a bit reaching.

To your points...

1: Every player around AD has to be top tier elite for him to succeed in the playoffs? I disagree. He seems to be fine during the regular season with those players.

Also, not every team with post season success has ultra elite, healthy guys at every spot at the end of the year. AD has to have that? This path of logic seems like an excuse more than a factor or reason. You can't have it both ways.

The poo-pooing of the team around AD is unreasonable and, I think, quite slanted for the purpose of shifting blame. The Colts loss can't be placed on Andy Dalton, IMO, because the team was decimated and not representative of what the Bengals were that season. Other than that, the talent around AD in the playoffs has been excellent. Not every unit is going to be top shelf, at it's best all the time. Especially at the end of the year. If AD needs that to succeed, then he really isn't going to be the answer to anything meaningful.

2. AD has played 6 seasons. There are 2 where the line wasn't good. Even with that line in 2012, they made the playoffs. Also, not all sacks are on the O-line. This information doesn't tell the whole story and is incomplete. Again, slanted and misdirecting to serve your purpose. There is more data needed here to actually draw a conclusion on 2012's O-line performance.

3. Carson had a great defense ONCE in his entire time in Cincy. When he did, the team was playing terribly towards the end of that season and got smoked by a hot Jets team. You put down AD's WRs above and then bring this game up where Carson had an awful cast: Chad, Coles, Cosby, Simpson were the top 4 WRs on that team. That's much worse than any group AD has had. It's unreasonable to point to AD's cast, bring up Carson's D ONE season, then circle that back without taking Carson's cast into consideration.

4. Special Teams as a whole is much much more than a kicker. The Bengals ST units since AD got here in 2011 are much better than they were in the mid 2000s - which was my point. Bringing up one guy, a kicker, to try and deconstruct that is, again, misdirecting for the sake of manufacturing a rebuttal. The ST units for the Bengals are excllent. Huber is outstanding. The return game is better. Everything is better BUT the kicker. I blame the kicker for a large portion of lasts season's woes, NOT AD. I think AD played well enough.

5. AD's performance in the SD playoff game is indefensible. You trying to point to a late fumble by Bernard as a reason for the loss is just not right or a fair perspective. The Bengals D played great in that game up until ADs back.... to back... to BACK turn overs on 3 consecutive possessions - IN BENGALS TERRITORY.

Again, super bias - as if you're looking for excuses for AD - to blame the D for giving up points in that game compared to the Stealers game, where McCarron kept them in it by not stinking (in relation to AD in the SD playoff game... basically the opposite).

The telling play that game, to me, was when AD dove on the ground and coughed it up untouched. He was filling his pants the whole 2nd half. He was THAT bad. The Bengals were in position to take that game and AD gave it away in the 3rd quarter. Period. Here, go back and read the play by play of it and try not to puke...

Go ahead and scroll down to after the first half. Bengals up 7-10.
1st possession 2nd half: PUNT
2nd: FUMBLE
3rd: Awful INT
4th: Awful INT
Each one of those giveaways in Bengals territory led to SD points and losing the lead.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/playbyplay?gameId=340105004

I appreciate AD being the QB of the Bengals very much, but I refuse to baby him baby him or be short sighted over how he has played in the playoffs.

^ The above being said, anyone calling AD a bum, complaining about his arm strength, etc. etc. or saying that he CAN'T do it, are on the opposite side of irrational. Andy Dalton is a really good QB. He is a step away from being a GREAT QB and that step is multiple post season wins. He CAN do it. He just hasn't. All the tools are there.

Lastly,

6. The notion that the entire team has been bad under Marvin in the playoffs isn't correct. The defenses have had good games and the Bengals have had leads. In recent history, AD has not been able to overcome his own mistakes or make the players around him better in the playoffs. QB is the most influential, singularly important position in all of team sports for THAT reason. He isn't an equal participant or and equal part of the equation. He is THE most important by multitudes. He makes the most money because he makes the team go, he gets the glory and the blame if they fail. Blaming every single thing around him, BUT HIM, or treating the players as equal parts are just apologistic notions from the hearts of fans. He has the most influence and should get the most blame. And if he had played lights out and they had lost, NOBODY would be on his case. But that isn't reality.

The fact that Brady is 3-3 WITH terrible performances doesn't mean that AD gets off the hook or that TB's team bailed him out (sometimes the guys around him have made great plays, yes... see superbowl vs Seahawks). It could also mean that in crunch time, Brady picked his game up. JUST LIKE MCCARRON DID. In the moments needed, great QBs come through. AD hasn't done that... yet. So to say he's great or be sensitive towards people who beat on him a little is fanboyish.

AD can be polarizing to fans. Some are hyper hyper sensitive to any criticism of AD and become apologists and others are hyper sensitive to heaps of praise and grandeur, becoming haters. I didn't see the article as unfairly bashing him at all. Fact is, AD's stunk in the playoffs, despite having one of the most talented rosters in the NFL around him, but that isn't the nail in the coffin to his career. Lots left to play.

I appreciate you making it more respectful. I might disagree, get a little heated occasionally or throw a little sarcasm in my posts, but I always try to maintain a level of respect with everyone here. Don't let it get personal. Sometimes we seem to forget that we're all huge Bengals fans...we just disagree on some details of the team. With that said...

1. You're twisting what I said here. You said Dalton's weapons were "elite", I responded by saying they weren't, and your response back was to say "so he needs a super elite cast to win a playoff game?". I was simply trying to show that Dalton's cast hasn't been nearly as epic as it's reputation over the last 6 years. If you sit and think about it, it's mostly been AJ Green + revolving door at #2 WR + Gresh/injured Eifert + terrible run game.

No I don't think Dalton needs an elite cast to win a playoff game, although that doesn't hurt (ask Matt Ryan). He just needs a better coach.


2. The reason why I highlighted the 2012 season and how the coaching staff called for Andy to make more "unscripted plays" is this: unscripted plays take time. That was the only season where Dalton wasn't among the league leaders in time-to-throw, and it led to a whopping 46 sacks. To me, that's possible evidence that the pass blocking has been made to look better by those quick release times. I think Andy is regarded as being a QB that helps his line avoid sacks, more than creating them. We saw the difference between he and McCarron first hand in 2015.


3. You were talking about defense there, but now switch it to weapons. That's fine. The weapons that year weren't good, but for you to say they were worse than any of Dalton's years is false IMO. Carson had a Pro Bowl WR (Chad), a decent run game and that's about it. Is that really worse than Dalton's 2011 or 2012 seasons? When he had AJ Green and crap? What about 2014...when he had no healthy receivers for the playoff game (or half the season)? I don't hate Carson, I just like pointing out that he was equally shitty in the playoffs. Just more evidence that Marv is the problem. Weapons or not, Carson wasn't that bad in regular season at all.


4. ST is more than the kicker? You don't say... Look, I just didn't feel like listing off all the punters and returners they had, but a lot of them were very good. Kyle Larson had a solid 5 year run. Tab Perry, Bernard Scott, Glenn Holt and others all had very successful stints as returners. Plus Darrin Simmons was the coach back then as well. I don't know why you think our ST was so bad during Palmer's tenure. Did we give up a ton of return TD's? I don't remember that, but maybe we did? Outside of that I know the ST play was fine.


5.  I see you also changed that bit about Gio fumbling "late" in the game. That key fumble came at the end of the first half, when we were looking to build on a lead and go in with momentum. Not bashing Gio...he's just a symptom of the real problem. AJ McCarron was just as awful and I'm not sure why you think he was better (couldn't be bias, because I'm the one who is biased apparently). He led the Bengals to a whopping 56 total yards and 0 points in the first half. During one 12-play stretch in the second quarter, they collected 10 yards, punted three times and threw an interception. How is that "keeping the defense in it by not stinking"?? Lets face it, the defense fell apart during one bad performance and they kept it together during the other. Here's a novel concept: Maybe we should blame the defense for the performance of the defense? Or maybe the head coach who is responsible for everything sucking. 

I'm not the only one who thinks McC played like crap: 

Quote:It's worth noting that McCarron is a former fifth-round pick that has thrown all of 119 NFL passes since being drafted in 2014. He acquitted himself fairly well in three starts at the end of the 2015 season when Andy Dalton went down with a broken thumb on his throwing hand, but McCarron struggled badly during the Bengals' first-round playoff loss to the Steelers. 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/bengals-reportedly-want-at-least-a-first-round-pick-for-backup-aj-mccarron/

McCarron had 2 turnovers...one less than Dalton and passed for 212 yards with a 68.3 rating...yet you think he kept the defense in it. SMH.

6. You really believe that? In the 7 playoff games we've allowed:

31 points
24 points
31 points
19 points
27 points
26 points
18 points

We've allowed a 102.7 passer rating to opposing QBs. We've allowed over 150 rushing yards on average. We've forced only 9 sacks and 2 INTs in 7 playoff games, with 4 of those sacks and half those INTs coming in the last Steelers game (helping Mac). That's just covering the defense. The offense has allowed 22 sacks (a 50 sack pace for a full season) and they've struggled getting the run game going outside of Benson's explosion vs the Jets (which helped Carson). 

This isn't about me being a homer (or you being a hater), it's about narratives not matching reality. People pinning all the losses on Andy are missing the point. Everyone has been awful - including the other 3 QBs - and that traces back to the head ball coach. The facts show that Dalton is far from alone.

[clevelandsdad]

Bottom line: People just like to make excuses for Andy.

STOP IT.

He needs to own up to his shortcomings, and so do we as fans. I've never heard Brady or Rodgers blame their losses on anyone else. I'm not saying Andy has blamed anyone, but we as fans sure like to blame everyone else. The QB is the LEADER of the team. He hasn't led this team to 1 postseason victory in 6 seasons. Again, that's 6! That's pretty bad for a supposed top 15 QB.

Is he capable of winning a playoff game? I'd like to think so, but what has he ever done to give any evidence that he won't collapse in the playoffs? Or if not collapse, play overall poorly? I like the guy, but he hasn't gotten it done.

And we as fans should be up front and admit this not only to each other, but to ourselves.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2017, 02:02 PM)clevelandsdad Wrote: Bottom line: People just like to make excuses for Andy.

STOP IT.

He needs to own up to his shortcomings, and so do we as fans. I've never heard Brady or Rodgers blame their losses on anyone else. I'm not saying Andy has blamed anyone, but we as fans sure like to blame everyone else. The QB is the LEADER of the team. He hasn't led this team to 1 postseason victory in 6 seasons. Again, that's 6! That's pretty bad for a supposed top 15 QB.

Is he capable of winning a playoff game? I'd like to think so, but what has he ever done to give any evidence that he won't collapse in the playoffs? Or if not collapse, play overall poorly? I like the guy, but he hasn't gotten it done.

And we as fans should be up front and admit this not only to each other, but to ourselves.

Brady and Rodgers play for Belichick and McCarthy. They're better than Dalton, but the coaches are actually capable of coaching winning playoff football.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-07-2017, 01:17 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: My point was that despite bad QB play other areas of our team stepped up and won games. Boomer could have easily been considered a failure if we would have lost one of the first two games but nobody blames him.

He had one decent playoff performance against the Oilers  and he  only made the playoffs  twice but because our team made it to the Super Bowl he doesn't take the heat like Andy Dalton does.

I agree with your point, but Boomer was playing with a badly injured left shoulder as well.....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-07-2017, 02:02 PM)clevelandsdad Wrote: Bottom line: People just like to make excuses for Andy Marvin.

STOP IT.

He needs to own up to his shortcomings, and so do we as fans. I've never heard Brady or Rodgers blame their losses on anyone else. I'm not saying Andy has blamed anyone, but we as fans sure like to blame everyone else. The QB is the LEADER of the team. He hasn't led this team to 1 postseason victory in 6 seasons. Again, that's 6! That's pretty bad for a supposed top 15 QB.

Is he capable of winning a playoff game? I'd like to think so, but what has he ever done to give any evidence that he won't collapse in the playoffs? Or if not collapse, play overall poorly? I like the guy, but he hasn't gotten it done.

And we as fans should be up front and admit this not only to each other, but to ourselves.

FIFY :andy: :giggle:



As to the rest, what about the other 3 QBs who have played like shit in the playoffs.....and the rest of the team for that matter? You DO know that Peyton manning never won a playoff game and often played like shit early on until his first HC left Indy, right?