So...will we actually use our new weapons?

[Joelist]

(05-06-2017, 09:20 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Why would we not see LaFell playing.. Ross will play, so will LaFell.. also a draft pick does not mean that that player is just a starter right off the bat.. players have to know the system, practice hard, execute etc... 

right now you are just playing on paper... that is all a draft pick is until reality sets in.

So my answer is i believe they will earn playing time, not be just given it 

The problem is that if Ross and Mixon are not on the field then the speed they bring does not matter. Also our usual nonsense of our first and second rounders riding the pine because of some mythological notion about the need to practice well is not going to fly. you draft in these rounds for starters not backups. 

By the way all the reports on Ross say he is guaranteed ready for the season so the injury is not an excuse.

[McC]

Okay, so you're Marvin. What do we need to get out of this draft? We need to get faster. Okay, let's take the fastest guy to ever run at the combine. He's a guy whose game starts with speed but far from ends there, a guy who can affect defenses with his mere presence on the field. Okay, now, let's not play him.

Next, we'll take one of the most controversial figures to ever be in the draft. NO ONE doubts his talent. So, let's take him and the shitstorm of scrutiny that comes with him. Now. let's sit him for a year. We'll suffer the backlash and get nothing in return.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Sheesh.

[samhain]

If things go like they did last year injury-wise, then there's no doubt we'll see them both if they're healthy. I believe Mixon will be used a lot very early as Gio is worked back in.

Not sure about Ross. I see them using LaFell a lot this year. He proved he can be effective last year and has a full year in the offense under his belt. I really don't envision him being cast aside for younger player just yet. He'll get his targets early on.

I get that this is a question that's more about whether they'll use him if all goes according to plan health-wise, but I think health is the main factor driving how much these two see the field.

[Luvnit2]

(05-06-2017, 06:54 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think we all agree that our offense got a big infusion of speed in the draft. However, as always with Marvin you wind up wondering if we'll actually see that speed put out on the field and used right away.

For instance, will we put Ross out there right away and draw up plays where he can use his speed to burn a defense? Or will we see LaFell out there as the coaches claim Ross needs to "absorb the entire offense"?

And will we see Mixon out there and running plays designed to let him burn the defense with his jets? Or are we going to see Hill out there running for 2 and a cloud of dust while we get claims from the coaches that he needs to show in practice he knows the offense?

If you are asking if our OC schemes the offense around a rookie, I sure hope not. But, I have no issues if he schemes 5 or 7 plays out of the hundreds in the playbook for the rookie. I think Malone will play in a role as well in if Zampese dials up more speed type plays. Malone is close to as fast as Ross so I am hoping Malone makes the team and is active with Ross and others so our offensive game plan is interchangeable when injuries occur in game.

[Luvnit2]

(05-07-2017, 11:43 AM)McC Wrote: Okay, so you're Marvin.  What do we need to get out of this draft?  We need to get faster.  Okay, let's take the fastest guy to ever run at the combine.  He's a guy whose game starts with speed but far from ends there, a guy who can affect defenses with his mere presence on the field.  Okay, now, let's not play him.

Next, we'll take one of the most controversial figures to ever be in the draft.  NO ONE doubts his talent.  So, let's take him and the shitstorm of scrutiny that comes with him.  Now. let's sit him for a year.  We'll suffer the backlash and get nothing in return.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.  Sheesh.

These guys have a lot to prove to get playing time.

1. Experts on the entire playbook.
2. Can they block sufficiently and no be a liability.

It is more than running or catching a football, they also have to be able to do all things well and that is why many rookies on many teams don't start or get a lot of snaps. Not because coaches are stupid, but because any weakness they have will be detected quickly by a DC or an OC and that becomes the point of attack.

[Luvnit2]

(05-06-2017, 09:20 PM)Bengalsrob Wrote: It's a shame we have to ask this question but we do. Think about it, if we were most ANY other team would we have to ask? We shouldn't have to ask here either, but the question makes all the sense in the world, unfortunately.

 Many WR's drafted in round 1 have little to marginal impact as rookies and some have had success. here is 2012 to 2016 (5 years)


Overall - Yes - 8       NO -  13

No - 2016
Doctson
Treadwell
Fuller
Yes - 2016
Coleman


NO - 2015
D. Parker
Agholar
Perriman
K. White
Dorsett
YES - 2015
Cooper


No - 2014
Great Class
Yes - 2014
Cooks
Benjamin
Beckham
Evans
Watkins

No - 2013
Austin (only averaged 2.5 catches a game and 25 yards per game
Yes - 2013
Hopkins


No - 2012
J. Blackman
M. Floyd
K. Wright
A.J. Jenkins
Yes - 2012
None

I see a lot of 1st round WR saviors coaches did not play much or if they did play, their impact was not great. Boyd had more impact in round 2 last year than any guy I have listed as "No"

[kevin]

(05-06-2017, 06:54 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think we all agree that our offense got a big infusion of speed in the draft. However, as always with Marvin you wind up wondering if we'll actually see that speed put out on the field and used right away.

For instance, will we put Ross out there right away and draw up plays where he can use his speed to burn a defense? Or will we see LaFell out there as the coaches claim Ross needs to "absorb the entire offense"?

And will we see Mixon out there and running plays designed to let him burn the defense with his jets? Or are we going to see Hill out there running for 2 and a cloud of dust while we get claims from the coaches that he needs to show in practice he knows the offense?

The key is rebuilding the offensive line. Without blocking you could have Johnny Unitas, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Lynn Swann, Shockey and Gronk, and any other QBs, RBs TEs, WRs of all-time in their best years ......and without blocking they would not win a game. .......Other teams have talent at QB, WR, TE, RB, FB.   We have not proven we excel in these areas, it's what fans have on paper. The game is not played on paper and on the gridiron it will take BLOCKING.....IF WE HAVE BLOCKING and TACKLING, WE WILL WIN.  IF WE DON'T WE WILL LOSE......This is why I give the draft a C because we passed on blocking in 3rd, 4th and early in 5th round.  We passed on some good talent at center and guard and tackle.   This is why I hope the undrafted free agent O Lineman from Texas pans out for us.   Had we taken an O lineman in 3 or 4 or even early in 5, I could give this draft a B.   Not addressing O Line when talent was on the board in spite of needs on O Line reduces this draft to a C.  If this team can't block, it can't win. 

[Luvnit2]

(05-07-2017, 03:13 PM)kevin Wrote: The key is rebuilding the offensive line. Without blocking you could have Johnny Unitas, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Lynn Swann, Shockey and Gronk, and any other QBs, RBs TEs, WRs of all-time in their best years ......and without blocking they would not win a game. .......Other teams have talent at QB, WR, TE, RB, FB.   We have not proven we excel in these areas, it's what fans have on paper. The game is not played on paper and on the gridiron it will take BLOCKING.....IF WE HAVE BLOCKING and TACKLING, WE WILL WIN.  IF WE DON'T WE WILL LOSE......This is why I give the draft a C because we passed on blocking in 3rd, 4th and early in 5th round.  We passed on some good talent at center and guard and tackle.   This is why I hope the undrafted free agent O Lineman from Texas pans out for us.   Had we taken an O lineman in 3 or 4 or even early in 5, I could give this draft a B.   Not addressing O Line when talent was on the board in spite of needs on O Line reduces this draft to a C.  If this team can't block, it can't win. 

I think we drafted well and the OL impact players (immediate in 2017) did not exist. I did not see anyone valued where we were picking in round 2 that warranted our pick. So, I see your "C" and move my 'B" to an "A" based on your criteria.

[CINwillWIN]

(05-07-2017, 03:13 PM)kevin Wrote: The key is rebuilding the offensive line. Without blocking you could have Johnny Unitas, Jim Brown, Jerry Rice, Lynn Swann, Shockey and Gronk, and any other QBs, RBs TEs, WRs of all-time in their best years ......and without blocking they would not win a game. .......Other teams have talent at QB, WR, TE, RB, FB.   We have not proven we excel in these areas, it's what fans have on paper. The game is not played on paper and on the gridiron it will take BLOCKING.....IF WE HAVE BLOCKING and TACKLING, WE WILL WIN.  IF WE DON'T WE WILL LOSE......This is why I give the draft a C because we passed on blocking in 3rd, 4th and early in 5th round.  We passed on some good talent at center and guard and tackle.   This is why I hope the undrafted free agent O Lineman from Texas pans out for us.   Had we taken an O lineman in 3 or 4 or even early in 5, I could give this draft a B.   Not addressing O Line when talent was on the board in spite of needs on O Line reduces this draft to a C.  If this team can't block, it can't win. 

Sink or swim time. 

Bodine, Boling, Fisher, Ogbuehi, A. Smith, Westerman, Winston, Redmond, Hopkins...T.J. Johnson...I'm not too convinced myself, but as long as they can stay healthy, maybe they can gel and become a good young O-line for years to come. 

[McC]

(05-07-2017, 01:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: These guys have a lot to prove to get playing time.

1. Experts on the entire playbook.
2. Can they block sufficiently and no be a liability.

It is more than running or catching a football, they also have to be able to do all things well and that is why many rookies on many teams don't start or get a lot of snaps. Not because coaches are stupid, but because any weakness they have will be detected quickly by a DC or an OC and that becomes the point of attack.

They DO NOT have to be experts on the entire playbook to play.  That is just crazy talk.

[Luvnit2]

(05-07-2017, 04:50 PM)McC Wrote: They DO NOT have to be experts on the entire playbook to play.  That is just crazy talk.

So if AD audibles, they have no role?

All players need to be experts knowing plays. One blown assignment can kill a play and lead to major mistakes. Nothing crazy holding players accountable to know their plays.

[McC]

(05-07-2017, 06:36 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So if AD audibles, they have no role?

All players need to be experts knowing plays. One blown assignment can kill a play and lead to major mistakes. Nothing crazy holding players accountable to know their plays.

Boyd started as a rookie.  Ross will play plenty.  And how do you know he won't know the entire playbook when the season starts?  Have you ignored everything Marvin and Paulie G have said ? 

The first four picks will play.  Count on it.

[Luvnit2]

(05-07-2017, 06:48 PM)McC Wrote: Boyd started as a rookie.  Ross will play plenty.  And how do you know he won't know the entire playbook when the season starts?  Have you ignored everything Marvin and Paulie G have said ? 

The first four picks will play.  Count on it.

I want them all to play also, but not if they are not ready. Boyd was ready. Ross comes from a no huddle offense in college. All players are different as far as experience in a pro set offense.

[Benton]

Mixon likely will, Ross likely won't. There was some talk during the draft that some teams felt he might start pup.

Plus, we have guys who are already on the roster that we have resources in that know the plays.

[RiverRat13]

Mixon will lead the team in carries.

I doubt Ross has that level of statistical usage, but his presence is enough to make defenses respect the vertical threat.

[Joelist]

To me Ross has to be out there on the vast majority of downs for the simple reason that defenses don't have to respect the vertical threat if it is sitting on the bench. The same logic applies to Mixon - there is no threat to respect if it is not on the field.

[Bronze Bengal]

Whether they do or don't the offense will still be explosive. Ross and Mixon could make the difference to turn it up to 11, tho.

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-06-2017, 06:54 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think we all agree that our offense got a big infusion of speed in the draft. However, as always with Marvin you wind up wondering if we'll actually see that speed put out on the field and used right away.

For instance, will we put Ross out there right away and draw up plays where he can use his speed to burn a defense? Or will we see LaFell out there as the coaches claim Ross needs to "absorb the entire offense"?

And will we see Mixon out there and running plays designed to let him burn the defense with his jets? Or are we going to see Hill out there running for 2 and a cloud of dust while we get claims from the coaches that he needs to show in practice he knows the offense?

I don't think Marvin is extended beyond this upcoming season and that can only help them put their best team on the field.  

Plus, they did use Uzomah and he was only a 5th round pick with very limited experience.  He played well, and would have seen more playing time if not for an injury early in the season.  

Conversely, they didn't use Sexy until they really had no other options.  I don't know if that was intentional so they could sign him to an extension for less than starters money, but regardless he didn't get many opportunities.  

This is just my two cents, but it seems to me that the Bengals thought they could be successful on offense with AJ on one side, Lafell on the other, and Boyd (another rookie) in the slot playing a sort of nickel-and-dime offensive scheme.  AJ would help stretch the field, and Lafell and Boyd could work underneath.  They knew they wouldn't have Eifert in the beginning, but had no idea they would lose healthy versions of Kroft, Hewitt, and Uzomah so early.  Those losses really compounded their problems in the red zone. They were moving the ball with this strategy (Dalton had 366 yards passing in each of the first two games, Jets and steelers) but struggled to convert in the red zone.  

The defense was awful in those first few games.  They looked old and out of shape.  Check downs to backs, TEs, and WRs were easy pickings on our LB corps....and it was low-risk, high-% stuff.  The Bengals generated very few turnovers on defense.  

By the time the defense began to get in to playing shape, the offense was down to zero healthy TEs and Eifert's return netted just three games where he was on the field with AJ Green.  The offense looked better against Cleveland (who doesn't), and decent against the Redskins and Giants.  Then, AJ goes down at the very beginning of the Buffalo game and the season is pretty much over at that point.

This lengthy recap was supposed to illustrated the impact of a player like AJ (the vertical speed) and how we didn't necessarily replace Marvin Jones, but went with a more conservative approach.  If teams could double AJ, there was nothing else that could scare them down the field and it made it easier to defend them.  No TEs was a fluke.  The Bengals have four (one is technically an H-back) TEs that they feel very strongly abount, and Ross will help every aspect of the offense by forcing teams to keep both safeties back.  Even Cody Core accomplished this somewhat at the end of the season.  

I have been hearing that the Bengals will be lining up Ross at slot and outside.  Good.  Can you imagine a formation with AJ on one side, Ross in the slot, and Core or Josh Malone on the other side?  I think these young burners will bring a presence to this team they haven't had since the days of TJ, Chad, and Henry.  Ironically, I see Ross has taken #15.

The Bengals also saw that the offensive line looked respectable with TJ Johnson at LG as Boling had been playing through a shoulder injury, and Fisher at RT, for the final game of the season.  How much of that was the RB play of Burkhead?  How much was the better performance of the line?  It was surely a mix of both (see what I did there) and I don't think Mixon will rot on the bench while Hill putters along for less than 3 YPC.  His ability to catch the ball and blitz pickup makes him a more logical three-down starter over Hill right from the get go.  Hill will probably be used to spell him and maybe short yardage.

Combining the new offensive weapons at WR and RB with a healthy TE corps, this offense will be leaps and bounds better than last year and has the potential to have an Atlanta-type explosion this year.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-06-2017, 08:13 PM)PDub80 Wrote: - Ross can't actually practice until August. I expect him to be brought along slowly.

- Malone might have an interesting impact early and often as a 3rd option on the outside. I think he could be a star.

- Not based on talent, but based on general Bengals coaching practices, I expect Mixon to be a complimentary back this season, with Hill being the featured back. When Gio comes along I think Mixon gets pushed down rather than Hill.

- I like the chances on the kid Wilson on ST as a return man. He could catch hold.

- I think that the DE, Willis, might take a season or two.

- The guy I think who could make the biggest impact this season (other than, possibly, the kicker) is The Law Dog, Carl Lawson. I see him as potentially having the most impact as a rookie. I think that Carl Lawson is going to be a guy that comes on so strong that the coaches find ways to get him on the field and he produces.

- Schreck, I can see actually pushing Kroft and Uzomah. I think Schreck could be a sleeping dragon and a sneaky good pick.

Wow, P-dub...have you been drowning in Marvin-Aid?  

Ross will impact the defense just lining up outside and running down the field.  Safeties MUST play two deep or they will get torched.  He will play right away.  He doesn't even have to have the entire playbook (he will) or be ready to play in the slot yet (he will) but you can bet the #9 overall pick will be on the field right away.  

Malone might take a bit longer, as that is one of the only negatives I have heard on him is that he might take a while to pick up the playbook.  With that much talent, though, it will only take a slow start by Boyd to see a lot more of him right away.  No one will be playing based on draft slot, except Ross

Hill will not be the featured back.  No way.  He is not used as a receiver and struggles in blitz pick-up, two strengths of Mixon.  Hill will have to earn snaps during the season and will largely be used to take a series off Mixon and in short yardage.  

Willis won't be used in a new position, where Lawson will be.  That immediately puts Willis ahead of Lawson and Willis can play both LDE and RDE.  He will be getting snaps early and often on passing downs.  I am pulling for Lawson and I think he can be the steal of the draft, but he will have to show he can line up at SAM and play backer before he lines up at RDE over Willis.  

I don't see how Schreck makes the roster, unless Kroft or Uzomah come up injured again.  I like him as a PS candidate that would push the TEs to stay on the field and be ready to play from day 1.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(05-06-2017, 10:44 PM)jeremydc Wrote: Nothing in our recent past shows that we will use ROSS/MIXON 'plenty'

Unless there is an injury and/or Gio isn't ready to go, expect to see them around 20-30% of the snaps

When was the last time we didn't use our first round pick (or first round talent, Mixon) in their rookie season other than for injury?

The last one I can remember was 2003 with Palmer.