Should Bengals be switching rookie positions?

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2017, 01:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: But look no further then the most recent failure and how we couldn't use James Harrison for the life of us, just for him to turn back into an 8+ sack player when he went back to the Steelers. If you think Marvin knows how to use a 3-4 OLB or undersized DE in a 4-3 SAM role still then that's on you.

If you think Harrison was a DE in Pitt then that is on you.

Same with your belief that Harrison ever had as many as 8 sacks after leaving the Bengals.  I'd ask you to list the seasons that he had 8+ sacks after leaving the Bengals, but I know you would just refuse and then make up some more "pretend facts" in order to support your argument.

"If swomething gets repeated enough times on the internet it becomes true, right?"

[McC]

(05-08-2017, 02:25 PM)jj22 Wrote: Then I'm afraid it's a wasted pick. Lawson is too tight hipped to move in space, or provide the speed we needed at OLB at 255-260lb's. He's a straight line straight ahead pass rusher.

You've got his future already decided and he hasn't played  down.  Give the guy a fricking chance, for crying out loud.

[THE PISTONS]

Lawson is likely going to be a situational (10-12) snap a game pass rusher.

He's going to likely have to play special teams to be active on gameday too.

You'd think Burfict, Minter, Rey, and Vigil would be assured of active roster spots on gameday.

That leaves the 5th spot between Dawson, Flowers, Lawson, Jordan Evans, and some of the other free agents.

[Au165]

(05-08-2017, 03:11 PM)McC Wrote: You've got his future already decided and he hasn't played  down.  Give the guy a fricking chance, for crying out loud.

Well take it with a grain of salt, he said he is tight hipped and a straight line guy but ran the fastest 20 yard shuttle for DL and 4th fastest for LBs. The guy can change direction.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2017, 04:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You'd think Burfict, Minter, Rey, and Vigil would be assured of active roster spots on gameday.

That leaves the 5th spot between Dawson, Flowers, Lawson, Jordan Evans, and some of the other free agents.

I am still not that impressed by Vigil.  But he was just a rookie last year so it is too early to judge him.

On the other hand, 2016 was Flowers' third in the NFL.  He is not going to suddenly take his game to another level.  I am guessing he has a very hard time making the roster.

2016 was only Dawson's second in the league, but the Bengals actually released him after 4 games last year.  He was on the practice squad for most of the season before being called back up the end of December.  I also see him as a longshot to make the roster

[XenoMorph]

(05-08-2017, 04:09 PM)Au165 Wrote: Well take it with a grain of salt, he said he is tight hipped and a straight line guy but ran the fastest 20 yard shuttle for DL and 4th fastest for LBs. The guy can change direction.

I cant remember him being called tight hipped..

I know he had a Hip Injury concern

[XenoMorph]

(05-08-2017, 01:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well I'm not. But look no further then the most recent failure and how we couldn't use James Harrison for the life of us, just for him to turn back into an 8+ sack player when he went back to the Steelers. If you think Marvin knows how to use a 3-4 OLB or undersized DE in a 4-3 SAM role still then that's on you. He doesn't, and he's proven it over and over again in the last two decades.

Leave Lawson on the line and let him focus on rushing the passer. Stop the insanity.

Name 3....

Let Lawson rush the passer from where ever they line him up Stop the insanity. (do you coach a football team?) madden doesn't count

[jj22]

Moch, Harrison, Michael Johnson, Pollack (excusable), Skuta, Brooks, Jeanty, Manny Lawson, Hardy. I can go on and on. But don't let Fred make you look like the fool. He knows the truth like we all do. Marvin has failed miserably looking for a SAM backer that has switched from a 3-4 or undersized college DE. Obviously. He's been searching for a SAM for as long as he's been a HC here.

Now how about you ask Fred to name the successful transitions to SAM that Marvin has made with his undersized 3-4 OLB or college DE's in nearly two decades as a Bengals HC.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again (moving pass rushers to SAM) and failing over and over again. But hey it worked when the league wasn't a spread/passing league nearly two decades ago.

When Lawson struggles to cover TE"s or can't run sideline to sideline to stop outside runs (which run defense was a major weakness of his) I won't say I told you so. I'll just say he's out of position and his strengths aren't being used.

[jj22]

(05-08-2017, 04:27 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I cant remember him being called tight hipped..

I know he had a Hip Injury concern

Tight hipped was one of his main weaknesses and criticisms. You can see if when you watch him on tape.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2017/profiles/carl-lawson?id=2557901

Also see "stiff". I mean film don't lie if you watch the non highlights (draftbreakdown.com).

Carl Lawson*, DE, Auburn
Height: 6-2. Weight: 261. Arm: 31.5.
40 Time: 4.67.
Projected Round (2017): 3-5.
4/26/17: In 2016, Lawson recorded 30 tackles with 12.5 for a loss, nine sacks and one forced fumble. He is a quick edge rusher who will fit best as a 3-4 outside linebacker in the NFL. Lawson is stiff as a rusher, but has some strength. His medical evaluation is going to be critical, and he could get flunked by some teams medically.

9/3/16: Lawson has a first-round skill set, but injuries have derailed his career. If he stays healthy for 2016 though, he could easily rise. In last season's opener against Louisville, Lawson made four tackles, two for a loss and one sack in the first half before hurting his hip. That injury caused him to miss half the season. Lawson came back and played well against Ole Miss. He looked good and was a challenge for Rebels star left tackle Laremy Tunsil. Over the course of his limited 2015 season, Lawson totaled 17 tackles, 2.5 for a loss and two sacks. He missed the entire 2014 season with an injury. Lawson is a fast edge rusher with natural pass-rushing skills, but he hasn't been able to stay healthy.

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2017DE.php#D5ZFWiCvfMQ2liRL.99


Now I'm done. Listen to Fred all yall want. But he's playing you like a fiddle.

[jj22]

(05-08-2017, 02:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you think Harrison was a DE in Pitt then that is on you.

Same with your belief that Harrison ever had as many as 8 sacks after leaving the Bengals.  I'd ask you to list the seasons that he had 8+ sacks after leaving the Bengals, but I know you would just refuse and then make up some more "pretend facts" in order to support your argument.

"If swomething gets repeated enough times on the internet it becomes true, right?"

When did I say Harrison was a DE? It's a sign of desperation to make something up then get bent out of shape over the made up claim. And why refuse to count his post season sacks? Not slick (although maybe some on this board will fall for it) I was off .5 sacks admittedly. But my point remains. Big difference in how you can misuse a player with Harrison/Lawson like skills.

[jj22]

Fred keep checking in and **crickets**.

So no one can provide proof of his success in last two decades in converting college DE's and 3-4 OLB's to SAM? But demand I prove the obvious (Marvins failures) as if we all don't know the truth?

In a language Fred can understand......


I rest my case.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2017, 05:09 PM)jj22 Wrote: Moch, Harrison, Michael Johnson, Pollack (excusable), Skuta, Brooks, Jeanty, Manny Lawson. I can go on and on.

Actually you can't go "on and on".  You have absolutely scrapped the bottom and spun yourself crazy trying to make an argument.

First of all Harrison was not a DE.  And if yoiu call the number three defense in the league a "total failure" then bring on all the "total failure" you can find.

Moch was a flop, but yoiu can't really blame Marvin.  He also played for two other NFL teams (including Arizona with Todd Bowles as DC) and they could not get anything out of him either.  Looks like the blame there falls on Moch, not the coaching.

Michael johnson should not have played OLB, but the second year was mainly due to injuries.

Pollack was not a failure.  He got injured.

Skuta was an undrafted free agent.

Jeanty was another undrafted free agent.

Manny Lawson was not a flop.  He played in the NFL 10 years and started over 100 games.  The two years he started for us our defense ranked 6th and 7th in the league.

But while with the Ravens Marvin turned college DEs Peter Boulware (4 time Pro Bowl) and Adalius Thomas (2 time Pro Bowl, First Team all Pro) into star LBs.

[jj22]

The case is closed Fred. Too little too late.

[McC]

(05-08-2017, 05:47 PM)jj22 Wrote: Fred keep checking in and **crickets**.

So no one can provide proof of his success in last two decades in converting college DE's and 3-4 OLB's to SAM? But demand I prove the obvious (Marvins failures) as if we all don't know the truth?

In a language Fred can understand......


I rest my case.

You rest your case?  Are we in court?

Who the hell argues this hard over a guy who hasn't even played yet.  Time will tell if you see the future as well as you think you do.  In the meantime, give it a rest.  Your point of view is stated and re-stated and re-stated a few more times.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-08-2017, 01:03 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I  think Sam linebacker is the right position for Lawson.
It would allow the defense to keep Lawson and Willis on the field at the same time.

The only problem I have is the new linebacker Jordan Evans is probably their best covering linebacker and he will not see the field.

I don't think Lawson will turn out like: Moch, Pollock (who got hurt), and others who converted to upright position.  I say this because Lawson is a freak athlete with speed.  The possible nightmare scenario I could see is that Lawson gets hurt.

Evans will be on the field in coverage situations. Don't let his draft round throw you off. He was snubbed by the combine and had he went, he would've been drafted much higher. He can play all 3 LB positions and was converted to LB from the DB position. He maintained speed and had 4 picks and knocked down 12 passes last year, he went down in the record books this past year as well against Baylor with 2 sacks and 2 picks in that game. He ran a 4.5 at his pro day (which would've made him 1st at the combine) and is 6'3" 230lbs, so I'd say he's got the speed to hang with any TE and big enough to make the stop afterwards. He needs to work on stopping the run, shedding blocks and get stronger.

And he will be on the field, maybe not right away, but he will get there and then we will have Burfict, Minter and Vigil/Evans out there. Nickerson is going to have to work really hard to crack the Bengals 53 at the LB position. He will most likely end up on the PS or just cut.
Vigil should be our future MLB once Minter leaves next year.
Flowers, Dawson and Roach and any other LB will be battling it out.

[*psychdoctor*]

(05-08-2017, 06:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually you can't go "on and on".  You have absolutely scrapped the bottom and spun yourself crazy trying to make an argument.

First of all Harrison was not a DE.  And if yoiu call the number three defense in the league a "total failure" then bring on all the "total failure" you can find.

Moch was a flop, but yoiu can't really blame Marvin.  He also played for two other NFL teams (including Arizona with Todd Bowles as DC) and they could not get anything out of him either.  Looks like the blame there falls on Moch, not the coaching.

Michael johnson should not have played OLB, but the second year was mainly due to injuries.

Pollack was not a failure.  He got injured.

Skuta was an undrafted free agent.

Jeanty was another undrafted free agent.

Manny Lawson was not a flop.  He played in the NFL 10 years and started over 100 games.  The two years he started for us our defense ranked 6th and 7th in the league.

But while with the Ravens Marvin turned college DEs Peter Boulware (4 time Pro Bowl) and Adalius Thomas (2 time Pro Bowl, First Team all Pro) into star LBs.

Also, Moch had medical issues; that is, i believe he suffered chronic migraines.  If anyone has had migraines, they can tell you it hurts like hell.  I believe Moch could have played better if not for migraines.  

Same goes for Pollack.  If not injured I believe he would have done well.  

I really think Lawson can play SAM and they could also on certain downs, move him around like a roamer and come from either edge.  My real concern is his health.  I do NOT want Lawson playing ST.  

[*psychdoctor*]

(05-08-2017, 07:37 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Evans will be on the field in coverage situations. Don't let his draft round throw you off. He was snubbed by the combine and had he went, he would've been drafted much higher. He can play all 3 LB positions and was converted to LB from the DB position. He maintained speed and had 4 picks and knocked down 12 passes last year, he went down in the record books this past year as well against Baylor with 2 sacks and 2 picks in that game. He ran a 4.5 at his pro day (which would've made him 1st at the combine) and is 6'3" 230lbs, so I'd say he's got the speed to hang with any TE and big enough to make the stop afterwards. He needs to work on stopping the run, shedding blocks and get stronger.

And he will be on the field, maybe not right away, but he will get there and then we will have Burfict, Minter and Vigil/Evans out there. Nickerson is going to have to work really hard to crack the Bengals 53 at the LB position. He will most likely end up on the PS or just cut.
Vigil should be our future MLB once Minter leaves next year.
Flowers, Dawson and Roach and any other LB will be battling it out.

What has me excited about Evans is this:  The Bengals finally has someone that can run with TE over the middle.  How many times have teams killed the Bengals with TEs?  It use to drive me nuts.  I think Evans is the guy that can maybe play safety on some downs.  It depends on his weight but at 4.5 40 speed, i think they could play him just about anywhere.  I think he will be a demon on ST.  

[Mike M (the other one)]

(05-08-2017, 08:04 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: What has me excited about Evans is this:  The Bengals finally has someone that can run with TE over the middle.  How many times have teams killed the Bengals with TEs?  It use to drive me nuts.  I think Evans is the guy that can maybe play safety on some downs.  It depends on his weight but at 4.5 40 speed, i think they could play him just about anywhere.  I think he will be a demon on ST.  

Yep, I was very excited when we got him.
I kept mocking him to us in the 5th-6th and I'm tired of those TE's killing us too.

[jj22]

(05-08-2017, 07:19 PM)McC Wrote: You rest your case?  Are we in court?

Who the hell argues this hard over a guy who hasn't even played yet.  Time will tell if you see the future as well as you think you do.  In the meantime, give it a rest.  Your point of view is stated and re-stated and re-stated a few more times.

My argument isn't against Lawson. It's against another failed position switch forcing a college prospect as a rusher into the SAM spot. I'm actually shocked folks act like they haven't read this script before. Sorry if I spoiled the ending.

And people asked and I told. Damned if I ignore the quest for proof, damned if I don't. Either way did you have someone to add that Marvin has coached as HC that made the successful switch? Or are you just upset I was asked to defend my position and relunctantly after trying to ignore the silly request given Marvins history replied?

And the lawyer "speak" went completely over your head.

[Derrick]

(05-08-2017, 09:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin has a Super Bowl ring.

Also, are you saying that coaches who win playoffs and Super Bowls never change players positions?  Maybe you just need to pay more attention to the rest of the league.  Because just looking at the Bengals and claiming that every single move they make is wrong is silly.

Goodnight, Fred.