The Beginning of the End

[3wt]

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/07/14/cincinnati-bengals-50-david-klingler-and-akili-smith/366545001/ 



Given the Brown family's obsession with drafting QBs - here is an article that points out 2 different failures drafting QBs.

The surprising one for me?    David Klingler - Wasn't a Mike Brown decision at all.   The one who wanted him so bad was Dave Shula, who now qualifies in my mind as one of the biggest reasons for the creation of the "Bungles" mystique.   It wasn't bad enough that he did not know how to run a franchise and was not respected by his players.   He was the one who insisted that we take David Klingler resulting in our trading Boomer Esiason a year later.

What might have happened if the Bengals had selected Troy Vincent in the first round?

The article does not ascribe the responsibility for drafting Akili Smith.  But I think it's interesting that Bruce Coslet noted the major red flag raised by what Smith's college head coach raised by saying that he only played Smith his last year in college because he did not trust him.

We could have had a lot of draft picks and another great corner.

Between those two decisions the Bungles era dawned.


I know there are a lot more knowledgeable Bengals fans than me.   What are your thoughts?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(07-17-2017, 01:22 PM)3wt Wrote: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/07/14/cincinnati-bengals-50-david-klingler-and-akili-smith/366545001/ 



Given the Brown family's obsession with drafting QBs - here is an article that points out 2 different failures drafting QBs.

The surprising one for me?    David Klingler - Wasn't a Mike Brown decision at all.   The one who wanted him so bad was Dave Shula, who now qualifies in my mind as one of the biggest reasons for the creation of the "Bungles" mystique.   It wasn't bad enough that he did not know how to run a franchise and was not respected by his players.   He was the one who insisted that we take David Klingler resulting in our trading Boomer Esiason a year later.

What might have happened if the Bengals had selected Troy Vincent in the first round?

The article does not ascribe the responsibility for drafting Akili Smith.  But I think it's interesting that Bruce Coslet noted the major red flag raised by what Smith's college head coach raised by saying that he only played Smith his last year in college because he did not trust him.

We could have had a lot of draft picks and another great corner.

Between those two decisions the Bungles era dawned.


I know there are a lot more knowledgeable Bengals fans than me.   What are your thoughts?

Mike Brown was the one who sent Wyche packing and hired Shula. Agreed to getting Kingler (Mike was GM) and proceeded to keep Shula to go 19-52 over 4.5 years.

Saying it wasn't a Mike Brown decision *at all* is saying it wasn't his fault as owner of the team, the GM of the team, and the man who chose the HC.

[3wt]

(07-17-2017, 02:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Mike Brown was the one who sent Wyche packing and hired Shula. Agreed to getting Kingler (Mike was GM) and proceeded to keep Shula to go 19-52 over 4.5 years.

Saying it wasn't a Mike Brown decision *at all* is saying it wasn't his fault as owner of the team, the GM of the team, and the man who chose the HC.

Valid point.   I honestly was surprised that he would have let Shula push the envelope at all.   I guess my point is how hard he labored to get Klingler when he had Esiason on board.   We had a lot of needs on that team including some holes in the offensive line (notably center) and cornerback.

I just had always assumed that the QB fetish was Brown and that he was tired of dealing with a hot head like Boomer.

But you are right.  He has always been the ultimate gatekeeper and it's not like he had a history of being run over by his coaches - especially one like Shula.

[coachmcneil71]

Watched Klingler get sacked like nine times while sitting in the original Dawg Pound in like 91(apparently it must have been 92 after reading bfines post). Was pretty damn funny by the end. I started out as the enemy & by the end Browns fan's were buying me beers...lol... They just kept them coming, saying that I needed it more than they did.
Great memory, sort of. Good stuff!

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I do believe Coslet told Mike Brown, "If we draft a couple of Linemen, we can win with Blake" and Mike Brown said, "We are taking a QB". Not exact quotes but you get the meaning.

The problem has always been and will always be Mike Brown. He is the one constant through all of the Bengals troubles.

[*Nately120*]

(07-17-2017, 02:25 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Mike Brown was the one who sent Wyche packing and hired Shula. Agreed to getting Kingler (Mike was GM) and proceeded to keep Shula to go 19-52 over 4.5 years.

Saying it wasn't a Mike Brown decision *at all* is saying it wasn't his fault as owner of the team, the GM of the team, and the man who chose the HC.

Agreed.  Dave Shula clearly had no business being an NFL HC as evidenced by his transition into working for his dad's steakhouse (geez, not even a strangers stakehouse).  Blaming Shula for wanting Klingler is like blaming your 4 year old for wanting to eat candy for dinner; they just don't know any better.

(07-17-2017, 03:21 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I do believe Coslet told Mike Brown, "If we draft a couple of Linemen, we can win with Blake" and Mike Brown said, "We are taking a QB". Not exact quotes but you get the meaning.

The problem has always been and will always be Mike Brown. He is the one constant through all of the Bengals troubles.

Yeah, interesting personal note is that my NFC team has been the Chicago Bears since 1990 (and 1987 for the Bengals) and I was hoping the Bengals would trade down and build around Blake while the Bears would get Palmer.  My optimism that both teams were going to get the pieces they needed to really compete in their respective conferences didn't come through, though. I did get to watch Palmer have a frustrating playoff injury and Rex Grossman crap the bed, though.

EDIT: Ok, I skipped a few years in there but I assume I just blocked them from memory.

[Bengal Dude]

I go back to Paul Brown's biography. Mike went to Paul a few months before his death and asked him about Klingler, while he we was still in college, because Mike liked him. Paul said they should stay away because there was something he didn't like about him.

[CageTheBengal]

The beginning of the end for me was when I switched from a Packers fan to a Bengals fan after watching football for half a year.

[*bfine32*]

Showing Boomer the door ranks right up there with naming Tiger Johnson HC in our franchises biggest blunders (hey I got a new idea for an interactive thread). Boomer wanted what was best for the franchise as he and Fulcher went to Mike petitioning to go D in the first round of the 1992 draft. This is why I balk when some try to compare his motives to those of CP9.

The not only do we make the stupid move of drafting Klingler in 92 we make the mistake of going D in the 1st round the next 2 years instead of selecting players such as Willie Roaf and Marshall Faulk that could help Klingler. With Faulk there would have been no need to draft Ki-Jana in 95 and we could have looked at a replacement in an highly talented QB out of Alcorn State.

Ok now I'm depressed.

[Shake n Blake]

(07-17-2017, 05:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Showing Boomer the door ranks right up there with naming Tiger Johnson HC in our franchises biggest blunders (hey I got a new idea for an interactive thread). Boomer wanted what was best for the franchise as he and Fulcher went to Mike petitioning to go D in the first round of the 1992 draft. This is why I balk when some try to compare his motives to those of CP9.

The not only do we make the stupid move of drafting Klingler in 92 we make the mistake of going D in the 1st round the next 2 years instead of selecting players such as Willie Roaf and Marshall Faulk that could help Klingler. With Faulk there would have been no need to draft Ki-Jana in 95 and we could have looked at a replacement in an highly talented QB out of Alcorn State.

Ok now I'm depressed.

A few different decisions could've changed the 90's. Taking Faulk, Roaf and McNair would've been huge. With McNair, Mike wouldn't have been tempted by Akili and we could've accepted Hurricane Ditka's offer.

Also agree with LL on Mike being responsible for Shula. Shula still owns the record for quickest to 50 losses due to Mike Brown's "patience".

[bonesaw]

In fairness I did hear Mike was pounding the drum to draft Drew Brees even though we had taken Akili the year before.

[*bfine32*]

(07-17-2017, 09:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: A few different decisions could've changed the 90's. Taking Faulk, Roaf and McNair would've been huge. With McNair, Mike wouldn't have been tempted by Akili and we could've accepted Hurricane Ditka's offer.

Also agree with LL on Mike being responsible for Shula. Shula still owns the record for quickest to 50 losses due to Mike Brown's "patience".

With Faulk, Roaf, and McNair I doubt we would have been anywhere around the 3rd pick. But that's a separate franchise blunder.


New thread time.  

[RASCAL]

(07-17-2017, 01:22 PM)3wt Wrote: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/07/14/cincinnati-bengals-50-david-klingler-and-akili-smith/366545001/ 



Given the Brown family's obsession with drafting QBs - here is an article that points out 2 different failures drafting QBs.

The surprising one for me?    David Klingler - Wasn't a Mike Brown decision at all.   The one who wanted him so bad was Dave Shula, who now qualifies in my mind as one of the biggest reasons for the creation of the "Bungles" mystique.   It wasn't bad enough that he did not know how to run a franchise and was not respected by his players.   He was the one who insisted that we take David Klingler resulting in our trading Boomer Esiason a year later.

What might have happened if the Bengals had selected Troy Vincent in the first round?

The article does not ascribe the responsibility for drafting Akili Smith.  But I think it's interesting that Bruce Coslet noted the major red flag raised by what Smith's college head coach raised by saying that he only played Smith his last year in college because he did not trust him.

We could have had a lot of draft picks and another great corner.

Between those two decisions the Bungles era dawned.


I know there are a lot more knowledgeable Bengals fans than me.   What are your thoughts?

it still included the mutant mind of the son of Paul!

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-17-2017, 01:22 PM)3wt Wrote: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/07/14/cincinnati-bengals-50-david-klingler-and-akili-smith/366545001/ 



Given the Brown family's obsession with drafting QBs - here is an article that points out 2 different failures drafting QBs.

The surprising one for me?    David Klingler - Wasn't a Mike Brown decision at all.   The one who wanted him so bad was Dave Shula, who now qualifies in my mind as one of the biggest reasons for the creation of the "Bungles" mystique.   It wasn't bad enough that he did not know how to run a franchise and was not respected by his players.   He was the one who insisted that we take David Klingler resulting in our trading Boomer Esiason a year later.

What might have happened if the Bengals had selected Troy Vincent in the first round?

The article does not ascribe the responsibility for drafting Akili Smith.  But I think it's interesting that Bruce Coslet noted the major red flag raised by what Smith's college head coach raised by saying that he only played Smith his last year in college because he did not trust him.

We could have had a lot of draft picks and another great corner.

Between those two decisions the Bungles era dawned.


I know there are a lot more knowledgeable Bengals fans than me.   What are your thoughts?

These, combined with Ki-Jana's injury doomed the Bengals in the pre-rookie wage scale era.

The frustrating thing is, now that the Bengals seem to have drafting down pretty well, teams that have made incredibly bad picks (Locker, Ponder, Gabbert recently come to mind) are able to move on without near the penalty of just a few years ago.  I guess that helps the NFL overall as there shouldn't be any proverbial door mats (Cleveland is finally getting it right...johnny fartball was the dumbest pick ever for them).  

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-17-2017, 03:21 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I do believe Coslet told Mike Brown, "If we draft a couple of Linemen, we can win with Blake" and Mike Brown said, "We are taking a QB". Not exact quotes but you get the meaning.

The problem has always been and will always be Mike Brown. He is the one constant through all of the Bengals troubles.

I have said this countless times and maybe folks either choose to ignore it or don't believe it, but Mike doesn't run the team any more.  He is more of a figure head.  

Katie, Troy, and Marvin run the show...and they have an excellent scouting department.

We can hammer Mike Brown all we want, but there would have been many other teams drafting Akili Smith, or David Klingler, or Ki-Jana Carter....and as far as Blake goes, there was some ugly circumstances involving paternity suits (a lot of them) showing up at the Bengals stadium.  A little success went to Blake's, uh, head, rather quickly.  That is a large reason why they were not apt to try and build around him.  

[THE PISTONS]

(07-18-2017, 08:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: These, combined with Ki-Jana's injury doomed the Bengals in the pre-rookie wage scale era.

The frustrating thing is, now that the Bengals seem to have drafting down pretty well, teams that have made incredibly bad picks (Locker, Ponder, Gabbert recently come to mind) are able to move on without near the penalty of just a few years ago.  I guess that helps the NFL overall as there shouldn't be any proverbial door mats (Cleveland is finally getting it right...johnny fartball was the dumbest pick ever for them).  

Yep. With the huge contracts back then, if you whiffed on a top pick...you were doomed.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-17-2017, 01:22 PM)3wt Wrote: http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2017/07/14/cincinnati-bengals-50-david-klingler-and-akili-smith/366545001/ 



Given the Brown family's obsession with drafting QBs - here is an article that points out 2 different failures drafting QBs.

The surprising one for me?    David Klingler - Wasn't a Mike Brown decision at all.   The one who wanted him so bad was Dave Shula, who now qualifies in my mind as one of the biggest reasons for the creation of the "Bungles" mystique.   It wasn't bad enough that he did not know how to run a franchise and was not respected by his players.   He was the one who insisted that we take David Klingler resulting in our trading Boomer Esiason a year later.

What might have happened if the Bengals had selected Troy Vincent in the first round?

The article does not ascribe the responsibility for drafting Akili Smith.  But I think it's interesting that Bruce Coslet noted the major red flag raised by what Smith's college head coach raised by saying that he only played Smith his last year in college because he did not trust him.

We could have had a lot of draft picks and another great corner.

Between those two decisions the Bungles era dawned.


I know there are a lot more knowledgeable Bengals fans than me.   What are your thoughts?

I'd say more teams whiff on QB's than not. Probably the success rate of a 1st Round QB pick is somewhere around 25%.

I heard one talent evaluator say that only about 49% of 1st Round picks EVER go on to become starters in this league.

The draft is just a huge crapshoot.

Smith seemed like a classic 1 year wonder. Couch, McNabb, or Smith. Picking 3rd we were taking whoever was left. Passing on the Saints trade offer made it worse. Passing on Edgerrin James, Champ Bailey,  and Ricky Williams made it worse. Actually 8 of the top 11 picks in that draft were Pro Bowl players.

It's what bad teams do though...they chase QB's while the rest of their roster is in shambles.

Another irony is IF Klingler worked out...the Bengals wouldn't have had to draft Akili Smith.

The 1992 draft overall was pretty good: Darryl Williams and Pickens were Pro Bowl players. In addition, we later acquired 2 other Pro Bowl players from that draft in Blake and Ambrose.

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-18-2017, 10:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep. With the huge contracts back then, if you whiffed on a top pick...you were doomed.

And if you whiffed on four....Klingler, Ki-Jana, Akili, and Reinard Wilson, you were doomed for a decade...

[sandwedge]

(07-17-2017, 05:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Showing Boomer the door ranks right up there with naming Tiger Johnson HC in our franchises biggest blunders (hey I got a new idea for an interactive thread). Boomer wanted what was best for the franchise as he and Fulcher went to Mike petitioning to go D in the first round of the 1992 draft. This is why I balk when some try to compare his motives to those of CP9.

The not only do we make the stupid move of drafting Klingler in 92 we make the mistake of going D in the 1st round the next 2 years instead of selecting players such as Willie Roaf and Marshall Faulk that could help Klingler. With Faulk there would have been no need to draft Ki-Jana in 95 and we could have looked at a replacement in an highly talented QB out of Alcorn State.

Ok now I'm depressed.

I seem to remember Faulk stating that he would not be drafted by the Bengals. It was a warning that he would never play for Cincinnati. 

[3wt]

(07-17-2017, 05:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Showing Boomer the door ranks right up there with naming Tiger Johnson HC in our franchises biggest blunders (hey I got a new idea for an interactive thread). Boomer wanted what was best for the franchise as he and Fulcher went to Mike petitioning to go D in the first round of the 1992 draft. This is why I balk when some try to compare his motives to those of CP9.

The not only do we make the stupid move of drafting Klingler in 92 we make the mistake of going D in the 1st round the next 2 years instead of selecting players such as Willie Roaf and Marshall Faulk that could help Klingler. With Faulk there would have been no need to draft Ki-Jana in 95 and we could have looked at a replacement in an highly talented QB out of Alcorn State.

Ok now I'm depressed.

One of the biggest draft day failures was not taking Roaf who literally was throwing the Alabama teammate (Curry) of the DE we took in the draft (Copeland) around like he was a little girl.   Uggghh  I ranted to my uncaring family for hours after that mistake.   Roaf ended up ripping Curry's helmet off and throwing it into the end zone.

I was drooling.   We have gotten better of late drafting, but that was a colossal failure in an era of really bad draft day decisions.