O line struggeling

[THE PISTONS]

(08-08-2017, 07:57 PM)Whatever Wrote: Whit still played very well last year, but he did drop off a bit from previous years.  He is already starting to slide.  In the NFL, you want to move on before the bottom totally drops out.  

Contract talks go both ways.  Could the Bengals have offered more money to Whit?  Yes.  Could Whit have given the team that had given him numerous extensions and made him a very rich man a bit of a hometown discount to stay?  Yes.  There was no reason for the Bengals to go over what they thought was fair when they had already drafted a replacement, and they offered him well over $10 million.  People act like the Bengals should start handing out blank checks every time one of their favorite player's contract is up.  They could also not just structure a multi year deal so he could easily be cut due to the Willie Anderson fiasco.  Willie was highly paid, oft injured and not that good anymore when they had to cut him, and the fanbase went ballistic.  Same thing would've happened with Whit.  

The unspoken part of the Whit deal is he was a lot of people's favorite player, and those people think the Bengals should have paid him whatever he wanted for as long as he wanted for him to retire a Bengal.  As much as you can call the Bengals cheap for letting Whit walk over a few million, on the flip side, it wasn't worth that few million to him to retire here.  Vince Wilfork, Revis, Welker, Vinatieri, etc were all beloved Patriot players who had tread left on their tires when they parted ways.  It sucks, but it's part of the business now if you want to be successful.

They have cap space. The Bengals lowballed him and thought there was no way he'd leave. He left.

When you have $17-18 million cap space and don't sign the leader of your offensive line to a 1-2 year deal...the only reason is cheapness.

While they 'drafted his replacement'...the fact that they tried to sign Whitworth shows they weren't confident in Ced. It wasn't like they said...we're 100% confident in Ced so we'll let Whitworth walk. They wanted Whitworth...he left.

[jfkbengals]

(08-08-2017, 10:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They have cap space. The Bengals lowballed him and thought there was no way he'd leave. He left.

When you have $17-18 million cap space and don't sign the leader of your offensive line to a 1-2 year deal...the only reason is cheapness.

While they 'drafted his replacement'...the fact that they tried to sign Whitworth shows they weren't confident in Ced. It wasn't like they said...we're 100% confident in Ced so we'll let Whitworth walk. They wanted Whitworth...he left.

No.

Pat Kirwan stated, from a close and reliable source, that the offer was the same but Whit had already made up his mind he wanted a change of scenery.  The way Kirwan said it, I actually believe the source was inside Whit's camp.

[Whatever]

(08-08-2017, 10:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's what the Bengals always do. When they had a Top 5 roster in the NFL a few years ago...they'd save cap space to re-sign future free agents. The cap keeps rising. They could keep those guys anyways.

Why not sign a LB with that money to upgrade from Maualuga? A guy like Darryl Smith. He signed for $3-4 million a year and could actually cover TE's.

Why not sign a Center? It was obvious that Center was a weakness. They didn't address it and we couldn't run the ball in the playoffs.

You can always say...the Bengals need to save their cap space to keep future guys...but they had $18 million cap space and let Zeitler AND Whitworth leave.

It's classic Bengals.

And the we were more than Whitworth away from winning in the playoffs because we didn't win with him argument is classic. I'll tell you how you don't win in the playoffs? Fielding a poor offensive line.

Some fans will root for the Bengals and say that management has a sound strategy financially. It's been 25 years without a playoff win. Some 90% of NFL franchise's have won 5+ playoff game since we've last won a single game. We've won a total of what 5 playoff games in our 49 year history...

The Bengals philosophy DOES NOT work if your objective is playoff success. It works for profit margin.

Every team in the NFL loses players they would rather keep. 

At LB, they drafted Dawson, and he didn't pan out, then drafted Vigil, who the jury is still out on.  Maualuga sxcked, and I've said it for years.  I don't know what point you're trying to make, and how it pertains to this discussion.

Bodine is mediocre, at best, but he isn't the only reason we couldn't run the ball in the playoffs.  You're making him a scapegoat for the entire unit's struggles, as well as the RB's.  If you honestly think we could've run the ball just by swapping out Bodine, you're delusional.  Then again, if you spread the blame around, some of it goes to the guys you're bemoaning the team letting leave.

The Steelers won SB's with a crap OL.  I've posted on here before that statistically, there is no correlation between sacks allowed, ypc, or rushing offense and winning the SB.  The only cardinal rule that holds true is no team has won a SB with an offense ranked lower than 22, and no team that averaged under 300 yards/game has won one since the 70's.  Teams have won the SB ranking from the top to the bottom in those other categories.  It's a fallacy that you can't win in the playoffs without a top tier OL.

So basically, the franchise has sucked for forever, so we should a stupid contract at an aging LT who was one of the team captains in this latest run of futility?  If the franchise is so poorly run from a cap and personnel standpoint, tell me how they managed to assemble this Top 5 roster you were talking about in your first paragraph?  If you admit they built a top 5 roster, then you shouldn't be doing all this complaining about player personnel moves.  Of course, we both know you're just talking out of both sides of your mouth at this point, but whatever.

[Whatever]

(08-08-2017, 10:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Agreed. Plus we have what $17-18 million cap space now. Smith costed what $3 million. That's 20 million cap space right there.

Tag Zeitler for $10-11 million a year for 1 year.

We'd still have $9-10 million cap space after that.

How many times do we have to see the same thing happen over and over and over...and see a team not win a single playoff game in 25+ years to realize that management is inept.

We're hanging our hat on making the playoffs 5 times. Most teams have won 5+ playoff games since we've last won 1!

How are you going to tag Zeitler for $10-11 mil when the FT # for OL was $13+?  I mean, I guess it makes it easier to sign everyone when you can just throw arbitrary #'s out there, but that's not how the real world works.

[Whatever]

(08-08-2017, 10:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They have cap space. The Bengals lowballed him and thought there was no way he'd leave. He left.

When you have $17-18 million cap space and don't sign the leader of your offensive line to a 1-2 year deal...the only reason is cheapness.

While they 'drafted his replacement'...the fact that they tried to sign Whitworth shows they weren't confident in Ced. It wasn't like they said...we're 100% confident in Ced so we'll let Whitworth walk. They wanted Whitworth...he left.

That's not what happened.  Get your facts straight.

The leader of the OL you bemoaned couldn't run the ball in the playoffs?  Former NFL FO guys have stated in the media that the Rams were stupid giving Whit what they did.

This franchise has numerous things you can legitimately gripe about, but half your arguments revolve around this made up fantasy land you've built up in your head.  

[McC]

Oh good. Whit leaving rehashed. That was never quite covered in the ten thousand posts about it when it happened.

[Lawless_1]

If Mixon is the real deal I'd trade Jeremy Hill for someone that could block for him.

Jeremy Hill for Ereck Flowers perhaps.

[reuben.ahmed]

Another long year.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-08-2017, 04:48 PM)Whatever Wrote: I do realize Whit's accomplishments.  I also realize his days are numbered and his play could fall off a cliff at any time.  I also realize that if they tagged him this year and let him walk next year, they'd be in the exact same boat.  If he retired next year, they'd be in the same boat.  

The Brady instance is just silly.  The 49'ers let Montana go because they had Young.  The Packers let Favre go because they had Rodgers.  The Colts let Manning go because they could get Luck.  If I thought Garrapolo was my next franchise QB, I let Brady walk.  If I don't, and I had just won the SB, Id hold onto him and try to get another ring.  However, look around the league and the successful teams don't hold on too long, and they certainly don't FT linemen in their mid 30's.

If I was MB, and I trusted the word of some fans on the internet who have never won a preseason game and likely never will over the word of one of my coaches whose salary I pay, that coach shouldn't be working for me anymore.

......and yet a couple of them still do.....one from as far back as the lost decade.  You said a mouthful there.....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-08-2017, 10:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's what the Bengals always do. When they had a Top 5 roster in the NFL a few years ago...they'd save cap space to re-sign future free agents. The cap keeps rising. They could keep those guys anyways.

Why not sign a LB with that money to upgrade from Maualuga? A guy like Darryl Smith. He signed for $3-4 million a year and could actually cover TE's.

Why not sign a Center? It was obvious that Center was a weakness. They didn't address it and we couldn't run the ball in the playoffs.

You can always say...the Bengals need to save their cap space to keep future guys...but they had $18 million cap space and let Zeitler AND Whitworth leave.

It's classic Bengals.

And the we were more than Whitworth away from winning in the playoffs because we didn't win with him argument is classic. I'll tell you how you don't win in the playoffs? Fielding a poor offensive line.

Some fans will root for the Bengals and say that management has a sound strategy financially. It's been 25 years without a playoff win. Some 90% of NFL franchise's have won 5+ playoff game since we've last won a single game. We've won a total of what 5 playoff games in our 49 year history...

The Bengals philosophy DOES NOT work if your objective is playoff success. It works for profit margin.

Hallelujah!

I'm tired of the double talk.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-09-2017, 01:01 AM)Whatever Wrote: How are you going to tag Zeitler for $10-11 mil when the FT # for OL was $13+?  I mean, I guess it makes it easier to sign everyone when you can just throw arbitrary #'s out there, but that's not how the real world works.

We have $17-18 million cap space and Smith costed what $3 million a year? That's $21 million.

Tag Zeitler for $13 million and we'd still have $8 million cap space now...

Or keep rationalizing the cheap spending strategy of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 25+ year...

[THE PISTONS]

(08-09-2017, 12:55 AM)Whatever Wrote: Every team in the NFL loses players they would rather keep. 

At LB, they drafted Dawson, and he didn't pan out, then drafted Vigil, who the jury is still out on.  Maualuga sxcked, and I've said it for years.  I don't know what point you're trying to make, and how it pertains to this discussion.

Bodine is mediocre, at best, but he isn't the only reason we couldn't run the ball in the playoffs.  You're making him a scapegoat for the entire unit's struggles, as well as the RB's.  If you honestly think we could've run the ball just by swapping out Bodine, you're delusional.  Then again, if you spread the blame around, some of it goes to the guys you're bemoaning the team letting leave.

The Steelers won SB's with a crap OL.  I've posted on here before that statistically, there is no correlation between sacks allowed, ypc, or rushing offense and winning the SB.  The only cardinal rule that holds true is no team has won a SB with an offense ranked lower than 22, and no team that averaged under 300 yards/game has won one since the 70's.  Teams have won the SB ranking from the top to the bottom in those other categories.  It's a fallacy that you can't win in the playoffs without a top tier OL.

So basically, the franchise has sucked for forever, so we should a stupid contract at an aging LT who was one of the team captains in this latest run of futility?  If the franchise is so poorly run from a cap and personnel standpoint, tell me how they managed to assemble this Top 5 roster you were talking about in your first paragraph?  If you admit they built a top 5 roster, then you shouldn't be doing all this complaining about player personnel moves.  Of course, we both know you're just talking out of both sides of your mouth at this point, but whatever.

Ask yourself if the Bengals are committing all resources possible to winning.

The Steelers lose players because they are at or over the cap...and they restructure deals to get guys.

The Bengals lose guys when they have lots of cap space...and tell fans it's so they can re-sign future free agents. Until those free agents want market value...then they let them walk.

Even with a Top 5 roster and playoff success in their sites...they didn't bring that free agent or two in to put us over the top.

Is the goal to have cap space every year or is it to win a Super Bowl?

[THE PISTONS]

(08-09-2017, 09:23 AM)Wyche Wrote: Hallelujah!

I'm tired of the double talk.

At the time they spun it as we had no cap space to sign Whitworth or Zeitler. They do their...this money for free agents. This money for the rookie pool. This money for injuries. And made it sound like there was no money left.

And they are now sitting there with $18.6 million in cap space.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-09-2017, 01:07 AM)Whatever Wrote: That's not what happened.  Get your facts straight.

The leader of the OL you bemoaned couldn't run the ball in the playoffs?  Former NFL FO guys have stated in the media that the Rams were stupid giving Whit what they did.

This franchise has numerous things you can legitimately gripe about, but half your arguments revolve around this made up fantasy land you've built up in your head.  

So basically Whitworth left and you're going to spin it like he wasn't worth signing from a performance standpoint?

In another post somebody is telling me that the Bengals offered him the same  money as the Rams and he chose to leave.

Which is it?

The bottom line is one of Whitworth or Zeitler should have been franchise tagged. Personally I would have kept Zeitler. They could have still signed Smith then to play Tackle and had a decent line.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-09-2017, 12:55 AM)Whatever Wrote: Every team in the NFL loses players they would rather keep. 

At LB, they drafted Dawson, and he didn't pan out, then drafted Vigil, who the jury is still out on.  Maualuga sxcked, and I've said it for years.  I don't know what point you're trying to make, and how it pertains to this discussion.

Bodine is mediocre, at best, but he isn't the only reason we couldn't run the ball in the playoffs.  You're making him a scapegoat for the entire unit's struggles, as well as the RB's.  If you honestly think we could've run the ball just by swapping out Bodine, you're delusional.  Then again, if you spread the blame around, some of it goes to the guys you're bemoaning the team letting leave.

The Steelers won SB's with a crap OL.  I've posted on here before that statistically, there is no correlation between sacks allowed, ypc, or rushing offense and winning the SB.  The only cardinal rule that holds true is no team has won a SB with an offense ranked lower than 22, and no team that averaged under 300 yards/game has won one since the 70's.  Teams have won the SB ranking from the top to the bottom in those other categories.  It's a fallacy that you can't win in the playoffs without a top tier OL.

So basically, the franchise has sucked for forever, so we should a stupid contract at an aging LT who was one of the team captains in this latest run of futility?  If the franchise is so poorly run from a cap and personnel standpoint, tell me how they managed to assemble this Top 5 roster you were talking about in your first paragraph?  If you admit they built a top 5 roster, then you shouldn't be doing all this complaining about player personnel moves.  Of course, we both know you're just talking out of both sides of your mouth at this point, but whatever.

......but he's a HUGE part of it.  When you're constantly getting beat at the point of attack with NTs in your backfield nearly as soon as the back gets the ball.....you've got big problems against quality defenses.  Also, we have no idea how well he calls the blocking assignments at the LOS.  If he sucks as badly at that as he does blocking and snapping....well.....you know......

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-09-2017, 09:26 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We have $17-18 million cap space and Smith costed what $3 million a year? That's $21 million.

Tag Zeitler for $13 million and we'd still have $8 million cap space now...

Or keep rationalizing the cheap spending strategy of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 25+ year...

.....didn't even have to tag Zeit.  If they TRULY meant they "keep their own", they could have negotiated an extension.  Fact is, they keep their own....with the caveat that their own will take a hometown discount.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-09-2017, 09:37 AM)Wyche Wrote: ......but he's a HUGE part of it.  When you're constantly getting beat at the point of attack with NTs in your backfield nearly as soon as the back gets the ball.....you've got big problems against quality defenses.  Also, we have no idea how well he calls the blocking assignments at the LOS.  If he sucks as badly at that as he does blocking and snapping....well.....you know......

Exactly!

Basically people's responses to losing some of our best players in free agency and replacing them with cheaper, mediocre players is:

1) They were overrated.
2) We didn't win with them anyways so we can lose without them.
3) Upgrading 1 or 2 positions wouldn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

What a beat down fan base we have!!!

We've elevated winning a playoff game to some mythical status...while the fact is that EVERY single team in the NFL has won one since we last have. Heck - We've only won 5 playoff games in our entire franchise history.

[Whatever]

(08-09-2017, 09:11 AM)Wyche Wrote: ......and yet a couple of them still do.....one from as far back as the lost decade.  You said a mouthful there.....

From a coaching staff perspective, I would have canned Marvin and Company after the SD loss, but that's a whole different can of worms.

[THE PISTONS]

(08-09-2017, 11:03 AM)Whatever Wrote: From a coaching staff perspective, I would have canned Marvin and Company after the SD loss, but that's a whole different can of worms.

It's almost as if Management accepts mediocrity isn't it?

Just so we don't go back to the 3-13 90's.

[Hoofhearted]

(08-08-2017, 07:57 PM)Whatever Wrote: Whit still played very well last year, but he did drop off a bit from previous years.  He is already starting to slide.  In the NFL, you want to move on before the bottom totally drops out.  

Contract talks go both ways.  Could the Bengals have offered more money to Whit?  Yes.  Could Whit have given the team that had given him numerous extensions and made him a very rich man a bit of a hometown discount to stay?  Yes.  There was no reason for the Bengals to go over what they thought was fair when they had already drafted a replacement, and they offered him well over $10 million.  People act like the Bengals should start handing out blank checks every time one of their favorite player's contract is up.  They could also not just structure a multi year deal so he could easily be cut due to the Willie Anderson fiasco.  Willie was highly paid, oft injured and not that good anymore when they had to cut him, and the fanbase went ballistic.  Same thing would've happened with Whit.  

The unspoken part of the Whit deal is he was a lot of people's favorite player, and those people think the Bengals should have paid him whatever he wanted for as long as he wanted for him to retire a Bengal.  As much as you can call the Bengals cheap for letting Whit walk over a few million, on the flip side, it wasn't worth that few million to him to retire here.  Vince Wilfork, Revis, Welker, Vinatieri, etc were all beloved Patriot players who had tread left on their tires when they parted ways.  It sucks, but it's part of the business now if you want to be successful.

First it was an aging LT, now it's because his play dropped off? Even though Whitworth allowed one sack after Week 5 last season. Over a two-year stretch, he allowed 38 total pressures, two fewer than what Greg Robinson -- the former No. 2 overall pick who will now move to the right side -- allowed in 2016 alone. And all throughout, Whitworth has been crazy durable, starting 126 of the Bengals' 128 games over the last eight years, including all 48 since 2014.


I totally get the fact he was a fan favorite, hence why the disgruntlement from the fans. You don't treat guys like Whit this way.