So the big elephant in the room....

[Daddy-O]

(09-13-2017, 08:03 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There was a succession plan in place.  Cleveland was fantastic by not letting Hue leave without a deal.  They simply wanted him more and got him.  And we were left with Marv and Zamp.

One other thing that Marv said in his presser that made me want to vomit:  When questioned about punting on 4th and 5 on the Ratbird 45 with 10 minutes left in the game, down 20 points, he replied:  "We still got the ball back three more times".  Does he even realize the time component lost by that punt?  Is he really that stupid?  He basically had quit right there at that point and I saw a lot of fans head to the door, and a bet a lot of them never come back.  Asshole. 

Not only quit but I seriously think he makes these types of decisions so the bleeding doesn't get any worse.  Rather than showing the team you are trying to win he'd prefer to lose by 20 rather than potentially giving up another short field and score to lose by 27.  I mean 20-0 or 27-0 doesn't really matter but it sure seems as it does to Marvie.

[jj22]

Zampese is just in over his head. And it's painfully obvious. We all know Dalton's limitations, but we also know what a good coach can get out of him (Hue/Gruden). Zampese doesn't look like he can and both careers will be in jeopardy if this partnership continues.

I'm not sure who to blame on the Zampese promotion. Marvin must have known he wasn't ready when he passed on him twice. It wasn't unitl all available options were gone, that he finally got his shot. Who pulled the trigger, him or MB?

[XenoMorph]

(09-13-2017, 10:13 AM)jj22 Wrote: Zampese is just in over his head. And it's painfully obvious. We all know Dalton's limitations, but we also know what a good coach can get out of him (Hue/Gruden). Zampese doesn't look like he can and both careers will be in jeopardy if this partnership continues.

I'm not sure who to blame on the Zampese promotion. Marvin must have known he wasn't ready when he passed on him twice. It wasn't unitl all available options were gone, that he finally got his shot. Who pulled the trigger, him or MB?

This 100% this.

Zampese had been here a long time.   Had worked with Dalton every year hes been here.    But an OC he is not.

[XenoMorph]

(09-13-2017, 08:03 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: One other thing that Marv said in his presser that made me want to vomit:  When questioned about punting on 4th and 5 on the Ratbird 45 with 10 minutes left in the game, down 20 points, he replied:  "We still got the ball back three more times".  Does he even realize the time component lost by that punt?  Is he really that stupid?  He basically had quit right there at that point and I saw a lot of fans head to the door, and a bet a lot of them never come back.  Asshole. 

Well the offense had not done anything yet to that point no point in thinking they could get a 4th and 9 cause if they failed even if the ravens went 3 and out they would pin us deep.

To many misqueues for it to matter...   This decision had really no outcome on the game whatsoever...  as we failed to score a single point.. So getting mad about that doesn't make sense

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-13-2017, 10:25 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: This 100% this.

Zampese had been here a long time.   Had worked with Dalton every year hes been here.    But an OC he is not.

The Bryan Price of NFL OC.

[lone bengal]

I liked his play calling when we had 1st and 10 from the ravens 10. Bernard up the middle which is the strength of the ravens D for 1 yard. 2nd and 9 Bernard up the middle for no gain.

[bengals67]

Marv is a completely inflexible coach and follows patterns of behavior that we can all  predict- like punting on the Ravens 43 with ten minutes left and down by 17. What other coach in the NFL or major college football would have done this- but I bet most if not all Bengal fans- like me- knew he would punt.

Bodine is completely awful yet they refuse to accept this fact despite game after game of him getting bull rushed and pushed back and have stuck with him without drafting any competition for 3 years longer than any other team would have stuck with him.

How many other teams would think that a player who is a disaster at RT like Og could suddenly become great by moving to the much harder position of LT?

Zeitler got a ridiculous contract for a guard. I can accept that. Letting Whit walk was one of the dumbest and most shallow decisions ever made by this team- and that is a mouthful.

I was in the seats in Nippert Stadium when they opened in 1967 and I have been completely loyal and faithful to the Bengals. But this year, the best thing that could happen is if the win 3 games or less and the stadium is empty in the last 4 or 5 home games.

Mike Brown's refusal to fire Marv a long time ago speaks volumes of what is wrong. The organization needs a complete and total shake up.

Mediocrity ( and in some cases like Bodine way worse than mediocrity) is acceptable. This will not change unless this season is a complete disaster and even then it may not change as the Bengals play out their cards until stadium lease is up.

I knew all of this was coming after the Pittsburgh meltdown in 2015 and Mike did not have the vision or courage to fire Marvin the next day. What the team did in that game was completely unacceptable and Marv needed to pay the price to get everyone else's mind straight and a new leader with new ideas with the power to hire his own staff should have been brought in .

[Pat5775]

(09-13-2017, 08:03 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There was a succession plan in place.  Cleveland was fantastic by not letting Hue leave without a deal.  They simply wanted him more and got him.  And we were left with Marv and Zamp.

One other thing that Marv said in his presser that made me want to vomit:  When questioned about punting on 4th and 5 on the Ratbird 45 with 10 minutes left in the game, down 20 points, he replied:  "We still got the ball back three more times".  Does he even realize the time component lost by that punt? Is he really that stupid?  He basically had quit right there at that point and I saw a lot of fans head to the door, and a bet a lot of them never come back.  Asshole. 

Yes. Yes he is. Over Marvin's 15 year career in Cincy, he has said some really dumb shit that you wouldn't even expect a pop warner coach to utter. 

(09-13-2017, 09:27 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Marv is REALLY tough to gauge anymore. I believe his message is just stale and ignored anymore. He's not one of the worst HC out there today tho. He's certainly not the best, but I believe he would get another gig.

I doubt it. I don't think any team out there would be foolish enough to give him another chance at head coaching. Maybe as a DC but that's it. Other teams know exactly what Marvin is: a decent head coach during a lot of 1:00 games (excluding Pittsburgh) but a complete choke artist in the games that really count. I can't think of a single team other than Cincy that would put up with that crap. That's what makes Marvin so frustrating. We see (well, saw) what his teams are capable of on a bright Sunday afternoon. They often look like they could beat anybody. But the minute those lights get a little too bright, a typical Bungle collapse is likely on the way. 

Talent being wasted by a head coach who is mediocre at his absolute best. Hell, the window may very well be closed for this generation of players. When (if) we bring in a new coach after this season, we very well may be looking at a huge rebuild.

[CincyWestside]

I say Marvin is the biggest elephant in the room. The Bengals have now had 2 windows of opportunity to do something special under Marvin. The first window failed miserably and the second window looks to be closing unless the Bengals do a 180 on Thursday. At this point, I think it is obvious that we have a good core of players, but being out-coached every week has taken its toll. Not being prepared for primetime, playoff, or even divisional games has to be unacceptable after the number of years he has been here.

Zampese is a slightly smaller elephant. I never really liked the play calling of Gruden, but Hue was definitely fun to have as an OC. Crazy looking formations. Innovative ways to get the ball in the hands of our playmakers and not just forcing the ball to AJ every play. Zampese, on the other hand, seems to be very predictable in his formations and play calling. So predictable that the Ravens appeared to know the routes before they were even run on Sunday.

Another elephant I think a lot of people are overlooking is the Bengals draft department. It's one thing to miss here or there, but it seems like we have been missing on picks for the last 3 or 4 drafts. Yeah we do find marginal players in the later rounds, but our first round picks after 2012 have not been that great, especially from injuries. 2013 we got Eifert who can't play a full season. 2014 we got Dennard who has been hurt and underwhelming since returning. 2015 we got Cedric Ogbuehi and we know how that is going. 2016 we got William Jackson who was out all season. And this year we draft injury riddled John Ross. Barely touched the ball in the preseason and, of course, was hurt and out for the opening game.

For the Bengals to be out-coached every week and for 4 years of missing on draft picks has this second window of opportunity closing quickly.

[Pat5775]

(09-13-2017, 10:37 AM)lone bengal Wrote: I liked his play calling when we had 1st and 10 from the ravens 10. Bernard up the middle which is the strength of the ravens D for 1 yard. 2nd and 9 Bernard up the middle for no gain.

But was that all Zampese's decision or did Marvin tell him to run two times up the middle? During the 2009 Hard Knocks, there was a short clip of Marvin telling bratskowski on his headset "I want to see three runs up the middle here". There was a small discussion about this on the old board, many thought it was just because it was a preseason game but others wondered if that had been happening forever. 

To this day, I wonder just how much control our OC has. I definitely believe the OC calls the plays, but I wonder how often Marvin jumps in and tells the OC what type of plays to run. Case in point, those two runs with Gio up the middle. That's an extremely pathetic, conservative approach that I have a hard time believing any offensive-minded coach would run that close to the goal line. But hey, it is Zampese so what am I even talking about? 

In any case, whoever thought that was a good idea (along with the punt from the Ravens 45 yard line, down 20 with 10 minutes to go) deserves to be smashed repeatedly across the face with a piece of heavy mining equipment 

[bengalhoel]

(09-13-2017, 09:14 AM)Wyche Wrote: Thing is, we weren't left with Zamp, we chose to promote him......the Mike Clown way.  There absolutely should have been someone brought in from outside the staff to fill that role.

Cincinnati used to be such a proud sports city. Looking at the coaching staffs of our two major sports is embarrassing. 

Look at Cleveland. They have the guy that should have been our head coach improving the Browns. The hired Terry Francona and the Indians now look like the World Series favorites after coming close last year. The Cavs have Lebron as their head coach etc......  Pittsburgh with the Steelers and Penguins winning Championships. Baltimore has won two in the last 20 years.  

Meanwhile we have Marvin and his clown staff and Bryan Price.  It just isnt fair.   

BTW... I am meaning this in a sports sense. Not comparing to real issues going on in the world right now

[Hoofhearted]

(09-13-2017, 10:57 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: I doubt it. I don't think any team out there would be foolish enough to give him another chance at head coaching. Maybe as a DC but that's it. Other teams know exactly what Marvin is: a decent head coach during a lot of 1:00 games (excluding Pittsburgh) but a complete choke artist in the games that really count. I can't think of a single team other than Cincy that would put up with that crap. That's what makes Marvin so frustrating. We see (well, saw) what his teams are capable of on a bright Sunday afternoon. They often look like they could beat anybody. But the minute those lights get a little too bright, a typical Bungle collapse is likely on the way. 

Talent being wasted by a head coach who is mediocre at his absolute best. Hell, the window may very well be closed for this generation of players. When (if) we bring in a new coach after this season, we very well may be looking at a huge rebuild.

Every coach has their down-falls, and we don't know the entire context of what he has to deal with (does Mike Brown give him full responsibility to win, etc)). I am not convinced he would get another shot after these last few years, but when he was killing it with his playoff appearances? I believe he would of almost certainly got another shot had we fired him after the Steelers debacle. I mean you said it yourself; he can build a winner and win, but he just cannot get over the proverbial hump.  

[Shake n Blake]

(09-13-2017, 09:27 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Marv is REALLY tough to gauge anymore. I believe his message is just stale and ignored anymore. He's not one of the worst HC out there today tho. He's certainly not the best, but I believe he would get another gig.

Marv would probably get offers from annual losers like Jacksonville, Cleveland or Buffalo.

He just wouldn't get 15 #%&@ years to win a &#$^ playoff game.

[Hoofhearted]

(09-13-2017, 11:26 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Marv would probably get offers from annual losers like Jacksonville, Cleveland or Buffalo.

He just wouldn't get 15 #%&@ years to win a &#$^ playoff game.

Yeah that's where all the vitriol comes from with Marv and the fans.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-13-2017, 11:26 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Every coach has their down-falls, and we don't know the entire context of what he has to deal with (does Mike Brown give him full responsibility to win, etc)). I am not convinced he would get another shot after these last few years, but when he was killing it with his playoff appearances? I believe he would of almost certainly got another shot had we fired him after the Steelers debacle. I mean you said it yourself; he can build a winner and win, but he just cannot get over the proverbial hump.  

I'm not saying you're one of them but I believe many Bengal fans give to much credit to the "playoff run". I mean is that really held in that high a regard by the NFL. Is being one of the better of the mediocre really coveted ? I doubt it !

Like Shake says a couple of the losers may have had a little interest 3 years ago or whatever. Now, I'd be surprised if he got a sniff as a HC. There may be some interest as a DC ?

[740Bengal]

Zampese may be worse than Bratkowski and that is saying something, I mean he in my opinion lacks the basic fundamental football knowledge to be an offensive coordinator at any level. Okay is that a little much? Maybe, but how do you not call some screens EARLY in game to slow down the pash rush and relieve/help our terrible offensive line. Instead what does he do? runs on 2nd and long? I mean these are decisions that a mediocre high school coordinator doesn't make.

[Hoofhearted]

(09-13-2017, 11:35 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm not saying you're one of them but I believe many Bengal fans give to much credit to the "playoff run". I mean is that really held in that high a regard by the NFL. Is being one of the better of the mediocre really coveted ? I doubt it !

Like Shake says a couple of the losers may have had a little interest 3 years ago or whatever. Now, I'd be surprised if he got a sniff as a HC. There may be some interest as a DC ?

Nah I said I believe these last few years has tarnished his rep. Shake just said he would probably get another shot at a bottom dweller, as did I in my original post. And making the playoffs is not something we're going to hang a banner or have a parade over, but if given the choice to have the playoff run or NOT have a playoff run, the answer is very simple: yes, yes I would rather have the playoff run. But, yeah, NFL teams aren't going to be looking over the schedule and saying "oh, look, we have the Bengals this week! we have to practice extra hard!" or anything like that. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-13-2017, 11:45 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Nah I said I believe these last few years has tarnished his rep. Shake just said he would probably get another shot at a bottom dweller, as did I in my original post. And making the playoffs is not something we're going to hang a banner or have a parade over, but if given the choice to have the playoff run or NOT have a playoff run, the answer is very simple: yes, yes I would rather have the playoff run. But, yeah, NFL teams aren't going to be looking over the schedule and saying "oh, look, we have the Bengals this week! we have to practice extra hard!" or anything like that. 

Agree

It's way better we were making the playoffs than going 4-12. But I seriously question if we've ever been truly viewed as a team to reckon with, a model franchise or whatever across the NFL. We've has a good stretch here, a couple games there, sure.

But the end result ?

[Millhouse]

(09-13-2017, 11:44 AM)740Bengal Wrote: Zampese may be worse than Bratkowski and that is saying something,  I mean he in my opinion lacks the basic fundamental football knowledge to be an offensive coordinator at any level.  Okay is that a little much? Maybe, but how do you not call some screens EARLY in game to slow down the pash rush and relieve/help our terrible offensive line.  Instead what does he do? runs on 2nd and long?  I mean these are decisions that a mediocre high school coordinator doesn't make.

I said that in the gameday thread early on in the game about a screen pass. Screen it to a receiver or to Gio or Mixon. Nope nothing. 

And when when they finally get a drive going, it ended on a terrible Andy decision for an intro. They get in a 1st and goal situation only to run it 2 times up the middle for couple or so yards. Like wtf, he just went into a pu**y mode after an uptempo drive. Then called a pass play with no chance for a TD as the Ravens dropped 7 into zone coverage with 1 spying Gio. Andy shouldve just thrown it out for 3 points, but didnt. Zamp called the wrong plays for that situation, and Andy made the wrong choice in the end. 

[CincyWestside]

(09-13-2017, 12:17 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I said that in the gameday thread early on in the game about a screen pass. Screen it to a receiver or to Gio or Mixon. Nope nothing. 

And when when they finally get a drive going, it ended on a terrible Andy decision for an intro. They get in a 1st and goal situation only to run it 2 times up the middle for couple or so yards. Like wtf, he just went into a pu**y mode after an uptempo drive. Then called a pass play with no chance for a TD as the Ravens dropped 7 into zone coverage with 1 spying Gio. Andy shouldve just thrown it out for 3 points, but didnt. Zamp called the wrong plays for that situation, and Andy made the wrong choice in the end. 

Hey, at least Andy knew to throw it into the stands on that 4th down.