Our OL in a nutshell

[bengal kitten uk]

I think this video sums up our line: https://gfycat.com/ObeseRawFox




- We have our 5 linemen + 1 TE (Kroft) + 1 FB (Hewitt) against just 5 defenders on the LOS.  
- For some reason, Kroft and Ogbuehi leave the outside man to Hewitt, and Fisher also leaves his outside man unblocked.  
- We now have 6 men on the LOS pushing against 3 of their players and somehow we still get pushed backwards.
- Kroft picks up the rushing LB and combos with Hill to push the pile for a 3 yard gain.

Our line seems confused about who to block and lacks the aggression to push their man back.

Other thoughts:

1) The first half was especially rough as the guards were being asked to pull across the formation a lot.  I spotted at least two instances of our LG Clint Boling being responsible for blocking LDE JJ Watt by pulling all the way across to the right while Jake Fisher and TJ Johnson doubled the interior lineman.

2) We had one decent drive the whole night (in the 3rd Quarter) and it came from the OL doing a lot more traditional blocking (sometimes with help from one or more TEs).  Dalton was basically untouched the whole drive and the non-TD to Eifert came on a straight 5 + RB vs 3-man rush.

3) We didn't run any plays with additional linemen, only extra TEs.  Is this because we've only got 3 tackles on the roster?  The Heavy package was a staple of Hue's offense.

[McC]

(09-16-2017, 11:47 AM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: I think this video sums up our line: https://gfycat.com/ObeseRawFox




- We have our 5 linemen + 1 TE (Kroft) + 1 FB (Hewitt) against just 5 defenders on the LOS.  
- For some reason, Kroft and Ogbuehi leave the outside man to Hewitt, and Fisher also leaves his outside man unblocked.  
- We now have 6 men on the LOS pushing against 3 of their players and somehow we still get pushed backwards.
- Kroft picks up the rushing LB and combos with Hill to push the pile for a 3 yard gain.

Our line seems confused about who to block and lacks the aggression to push their man back.

Other thoughts:

1) The first half was especially rough as the guards were being asked to pull across the formation a lot.  I spotted at least two instances of our LG Clint Boling being responsible for blocking LDE JJ Watt by pulling all the way across to the right while Jake Fisher and TJ Johnson doubled the interior lineman.

2) We had one decent drive the whole night (in the 3rd Quarter) and it came from the OL doing a lot more traditional blocking (sometimes with help from one or more TEs).  Dalton was basically untouched the whole drive and the non-TD to Eifert came on a straight 5 + RB vs 3-man rush.

3) We didn't run any plays with additional linemen, only extra TEs.  Is this because we've only got 3 tackles on the roster?  The Heavy package was a staple of Hue's offense.

Well, we do have Heavy himself sitting on our bench.

[SunsetBengal]

Notice how Bodine, Johnson and Fisher's first movement is up, rather than forward? They all 3 get blown up, sending the play into total chaos. Also of note, Ogbuehi comes forward, but not low enough, meets the LB at shoulder level, proceeds to get knocked back into the play. Og should have been aiming to make contact with the defender's inside hip, to turn and drive him away from the play.

That's poor technique coaching.

[Yojimbo]

I'm just sick of these barely 300 lb guys. This line needs BEEF! I wouldn't have a lineman under 325 if it was my call.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(09-16-2017, 11:54 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Notice how Bodine, Johnson and Fisher's first movement is up, rather than forward? They all 3 get blown up, sending the play into total chaos. Also of note, Ogbuehi comes forward, but not low enough, meets the LB at shoulder level, proceeds to get knocked back into the play. Og should have been aiming to make contact with the defender's inside hip, to turn and drive him away from the play.

That's poor technique coaching.

This is Biophysics 101. Good call!

[SunsetBengal]

(09-16-2017, 12:04 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: I'm just sick of these barely 300 lb guys. This line needs BEEF! I wouldn't have a lineman under 325 if it was my call.

Fat and slow does not always = good

With proper execution of technique, the low man/quick man will win most of the time.  Leverage combined with some determined leg drive can blow holes wide open.  Our guys resemble more of an attempt to "pass block forward", rather than getting under and driving the defender's hip out from under him.

[grampahol]

But but they're sooo athletic! Never let it be said that on this team being really good at your job beats athleticism. 
Heck, the Reds pitching staff is pretty darn athletic. Maybe we can coax them over to play on our offensive line since they too are so athletic..
Homer Bailey couldn't do much worse..

[GreenCornBengal]

You have to wonder how a group that has been mentored by Anthony Munoz and Willie Anderson, along with training each day with Andrew Whitworth, has such terrible technique.... It doesn't make sense.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-16-2017, 11:47 AM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: I think this video sums up our line: https://gfycat.com/ObeseRawFox




- We have our 5 linemen + 1 TE (Kroft) + 1 FB (Hewitt) against just 5 defenders on the LOS.  
- For some reason, Kroft and Ogbuehi leave the outside man to Hewitt, and Fisher also leaves his outside man unblocked.  
- We now have 6 men on the LOS pushing against 3 of their players and somehow we still get pushed backwards.
- Kroft picks up the rushing LB and combos with Hill to push the pile for a 3 yard gain.

Our line seems confused about who to block and lacks the aggression to push their man back.

Other thoughts:

1) The first half was especially rough as the guards were being asked to pull across the formation a lot.  I spotted at least two instances of our LG Clint Boling being responsible for blocking LDE JJ Watt by pulling all the way across to the right while Jake Fisher and TJ Johnson doubled the interior lineman.

2) We had one decent drive the whole night (in the 3rd Quarter) and it came from the OL doing a lot more traditional blocking (sometimes with help from one or more TEs).  Dalton was basically untouched the whole drive and the non-TD to Eifert came on a straight 5 + RB vs 3-man rush.

3) We didn't run any plays with additional linemen, only extra TEs.  Is this because we've only got 3 tackles on the roster?  The Heavy package was a staple of Hue's offense.

I remember seeing this play and thinking:  "Wait, is this a screen?".  Free release from almost every lineman.  Are the players intentionally now blocking well for Mixon?  I would show this video one hundred times, with 20 times for each lineman, in front of the entire team, and chew their asses out.  Ask WTF they were thinking.  Ask if they like playing in the NFL of if they want to dig ditches for a living.  And then, bench the biggest turd, Bodine, and replace him with TJ Johnson.

They took care of one of the turds in the punch bowl with Zampese.  Now they have to fire a shot at the players.  Let Bodine know he will not be extended after this year by benching his ass now and let TJ Johnson have a shot at it.

I actually think the tackles have played fairly well, but the interior of the line, specifically the center, has been awful.

[Interceptor]

Our O-Line IS a nutshell.

[McC]

Bad schemes, bad technique and bad personnel seemingly hand picked by the position coach who is unable to coach them up. This is what is known as the recipe for disaster.

[Shake n Blake]

When was the last time we just saw our line exert their will on opponents and drive them back in the run game?

When Benny had that little 5 game run back in 2012?

Our run game always looks like RB's trying to fight through slop.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-16-2017, 12:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fat and slow does not always = good

With proper execution of technique, the low man/quick man will win most of the time.  Leverage combined with some determined leg drive can blow holes wide open.  Our guys resemble more of an attempt to "pass block forward", rather than getting under and driving the defender's hip out from under him.

Yeah, but it does seem like the best OL the Bengals have had are bigger guys.

Bob Johnson: 262lbs ('68 rookie years, and the average OL in the '60s was 251lbs)
Max Montoya: 295lbs ('79 rookie year, and the average OL in the '70s was 255lbs)
Anthony Munoz: 278lbs ('80 rookie year, and the average OL in '80s was 272lbs)
Willie Anderson: 340lbs ('96 rookie year, and the average OL in the '90s was 300lbs)
Andrew Whitworth: 335lbs ('06 rookie year, and the average OL in the '00s was 313lbs)


Meanwhile the average OL in 2015 was 312lbs.
Ogbuehi: 310lbs
Fisher: 310lbs
Hopkins: 310lbs
Bodine: 308lbs
Boling: 305lbs
TJ Johnson: 295lbs


(Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-offensive-lineman-are-big-2011-10/#1990s-fletcher-cox-de-philadelphia-eagles-8)

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-16-2017, 02:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, but it does seem like the best OL the Bengals have had are bigger guys.

Bob Johnson: 262lbs ('68 rookie years, and the average OL in the '60s was 251lbs)
Max Montoya: 295lbs ('79 rookie year, and the average OL in the '70s was 255lbs)
Anthony Munoz: 278lbs ('80 rookie year, and the average OL in '80s was 272lbs)
Willie Anderson: 340lbs ('96 rookie year, and the average OL in the '90s was 300lbs)
Andrew Whitworth: 335lbs ('06 rookie year, and the average OL in the '00s was 313lbs)


Meanwhile the average OL in 2015 was 312lbs.
Ogbuehi: 310lbs
Fisher: 310lbs
Hopkins: 310lbs
Bodine: 308lbs
Boling: 305lbs
TJ Johnson: 295lbs


(Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-offensive-lineman-are-big-2011-10/#1990s-fletcher-cox-de-philadelphia-eagles-8)

Those were also all from a completely different era. 
310 is the general size for good OTs now. 
Especially because most guys don't play their "list" weight. 
Tyron Smith is NOT the 320 lbs NFL.com has him listed as. I've heard he plays around 290-295. 
Joe Thomas is right around that 300 mark. 



It's all about skill set not size. 
Ced wouldn't be any better if he was 325 lbs. 

Boling is a pulling guard. He's a great blocker on the move. Asking him to be a drive blocker like they have been is just poor use of his skill by the coaches (OC sets the scheme btw)
Zack Martin is by far and away the best OG in the game and he's under 310. 

There is no magic pill in terms of size for a good player. If you have shitty technique you will be a shitty NFL OL. Size can carry you through college because you will face enough bad players. But when you face good players, every snaps, you have to have the technique to match.

What separates the top list vs bottom list, is just talent. 
Bengals have a small scouting department and coaches are very involved in the process.
Coaches are not the same as scouts and the focus on very different things. 
Scouting requires  A LOT of time and effort coaches at the NFL level can't put in. 
If you want to see a big change, the Bengals NEED to expand their scouting department. 

But this is also a problem across the NFL. There's a disconnect going on and OL play is suffering more than any position. 

[Joelist]

(09-16-2017, 02:04 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: When was the last time we just saw our line exert their will on opponents and drive them back in the run game?

When Benny had that little 5 game run back in 2012?

Our run game always looks like RB's trying to fight through slop.

Agreed. Also, when was the last time we actually formed a proper pocket with a nose the QB can step into? Or actually sealed the end properly so the RB could get outside? And lest we forget Palmer also (with Ghiacuc) had pockets with no nose and it messed up his passing too. 

[Yojimbo]

(09-16-2017, 12:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fat and slow does not always = good

With proper execution of technique, the low man/quick man will win most of the time.  Leverage combined with some determined leg drive can blow holes wide open.  Our guys resemble more of an attempt to "pass block forward", rather than getting under and driving the defender's hip out from under him.

Andrew Whitworth, 333
Kelechi Osemele, 333
Brandon Linder, 320 (can't find a current, good, center at 325+)
Brandon Brooks, 346
Jack Conklin, 326

I'd take that line over ours.

[McC]

In a nutshell, if we had even a mediocre, barely serviceble OLine, we'd be 2-0.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-16-2017, 02:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, but it does seem like the best OL the Bengals have had are bigger guys.

Bob Johnson: 262lbs ('68 rookie years, and the average OL in the '60s was 251lbs)
Max Montoya: 295lbs ('79 rookie year, and the average OL in the '70s was 255lbs)
Anthony Munoz: 278lbs ('80 rookie year, and the average OL in '80s was 272lbs)
Willie Anderson: 340lbs ('96 rookie year, and the average OL in the '90s was 300lbs)
Andrew Whitworth: 335lbs ('06 rookie year, and the average OL in the '00s was 313lbs)


Meanwhile the average OL in 2015 was 312lbs.
Ogbuehi: 310lbs
Fisher: 310lbs
Hopkins: 310lbs
Bodine: 308lbs
Boling: 305lbs
TJ Johnson: 295lbs


(Source: http://www.businessinsider.com/nfl-offensive-lineman-are-big-2011-10/#1990s-fletcher-cox-de-philadelphia-eagles-8)

It all goes on preference.  During their dynasty years, the Cowboys always featured the heaviest OL around, while SF and Den. during their championship years always went with smaller, more athletic OL.  

My personal philosophy is that you need a Center that is big and strong enough to handle a 3-4 NT one on one.

[Yojimbo]

(09-16-2017, 02:04 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: When was the last time we just saw our line exert their will on opponents and drive them back in the run game?

When Benny had that little 5 game run back in 2012?

Our run game always looks like RB's trying to fight through slop.

Since Bobbie Williams and Willie Anderson, maybe?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-16-2017, 03:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It all goes on preference.  During their dynasty years, the Cowboys always featured the heaviest OL around, while SF and Den. during their championship years always went with smaller, more athletic OL.  

My personal philosophy is that you need a Center that is big and strong enough to handle a 3-4 NT one on one.

It all comes down to skill set. 
a 6-8 340lbs behemoth with shitty skills will be shitty. 
a 6-5 295lbs "small" OT with great skills will be great.