Think Changing LT is all we need to fix the line??? Think again...

[Whatever]

(09-18-2017, 12:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It had nothing to do with Zampese. It had to do with having a terrible Center and allowing Ced and Fisher to play.

The OC isn't the one that handles the blocking schemes...that's Paul Alexander the line coach.

And I doubt that the playbook changes much. The plays that get called in a game may change slightly...but the overall plays they pick from will be the same.

Alexander is a position coach.  His job is to teach technique within the scheme.  By your rationale, the WR's coach designs the routes for each play, the TE's coach decides what route the TE runs or gives him a blocking assignment, the RB coach decides where the back hits the hole or who to block, and the QB coach tells the QB who the primary, secondary, and tertiary reads are.  The OC is apparently just there to give a yay or nay.  

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-18-2017, 07:12 PM)Whatever Wrote: Alexander is a position coach.  His job is to teach technique within the scheme.  By your rationale, the WR's coach designs the routes for each play, the TE's coach decides what route the TE runs or gives him a blocking assignment, the RB coach decides where the back hits the hole or who to block, and the QB coach tells the QB who the primary, secondary, and tertiary reads are.  The OC is apparently just there to give a yay or nay.  

I love when people blame position coaches for design problems. 
They are just there to implement the coordinators system. 

That's literally the job title. Coordinator. You are there to coordinate the offense. Get the offensive position coaches on the same page for the same scheme and system. 

[motoarch]

What kind of statement is this anyway (referring to thread title). Literally no one thinks the only problem with the line is LT. In-fact I'm pretty sure we all agreed off season the hole line is garbage. So thanks for sharing stats that confirm what everyone already knew I guess.

[Steve]

(09-18-2017, 12:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm willing to give Boling the benefit of the doubt for now. We've seen he can be an above average guard. Maybe he's slow to come back from his shoulder injury.

The rest do need replaced. It's why I spent the entire offseason laughing (crying) that they left Whit go, ignored FA as usual, and then wasted their first and second round picks on a WR and RB. Then people actually thought the team would be any good.

Mixon in rd #2 is not a wasted pick....
it was the steal of the draft....

& at our spot in rd # 1 there wasn't an OT worthy of that spot.....we would of had to of traded down.....& that's risky & it requires a trading partner.....& we HAD  to give Ced a shot at starting at LT....
but perhaps next year we should spend every pick we have on O-line players.....
it just seems this team always wants a garbage center...Every yr I want us to pick one in rd # 2 but when we do pick one its always rd #4....& he's weak.....gets shoved backwards.....SMH.  

[Luvnit2]

(09-18-2017, 06:29 PM)McC Wrote: Well, can having crap on both sides of you bring down your level of play?

Was he better with Whit next to him?

LOL, the man is paid to perform regardless who is lines up next to him. And yes, last year next to Whitt he started regressing.

I don't but the guy next to him sucks, so he can suck too. Browns has a OT named Thomas who has crap next to him, but has had a great career and his play did not regress.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-18-2017, 07:58 PM)Steve Wrote: Mixon in rd #2 is not a wasted pick....
it was the steal of the draft....

& at our spot in rd # 1 there wasn't an OT worthy of that spot.....we would of had to of traded down.....& that's risky & it requires a trading partner.....& we HAD  to give Ced a shot at starting at LT....
but perhaps next year we should spend every pick we have on O-line players.....
it just seems this team always wants a garbage center...Every yr I want us to pick one in rd # 2 but when we do pick one its always rd #4....& he's weak.....gets shoved backwards.....SMH.  

Mixon might be. But one of Hill and Gio was a wasted 2nd rounder then. 3 RBs selected in the 2nd round in 4 years. One 1,000 yard season. Yikes

(09-18-2017, 08:27 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: LOL, the man is paid to perform regardless who is lines up next to him. And yes, last year next to Whitt he started regressing.

I don't but the guy next to him sucks, so he can suck too. Browns has a OT named Thomas who has crap next to him, but has had a great career and his play did not regress.

He didn't regress. He played with one arm. His shoulder was shot early in the season and he kept playing. 

And yes, when you are a good, not great LG and the LT is among the league worst and the center is among the league worst....you will look bad too.
That's how the OL works. You have to be able to be a unit and one bad player can sink an entire OL.

[Aquapod770]

(09-18-2017, 12:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm willing to give Boling the benefit of the doubt for now. We've seen he can be an above average guard. Maybe he's slow to come back from his shoulder injury.

The rest do need replaced. It's why I spent the entire offseason laughing (crying) that they left Whit go, ignored FA as usual, and then wasted their first and second round picks on a WR and RB. Then people actually thought the team would be any good.

He's sandwiched between two of the worst starters in the league at their position. He's shown he can play above average. Ced and Bodine haven't. In fact, they haven't even shown to be able to play at an average to slightly below average level. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(09-18-2017, 05:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Everyone calling for 5 new linemen should just take a breath. A change in OL coach could do wonders with the stooges that we currently have, at least enough to get us through the season. Sure, you'd like to allow the new guy to make some immediate changes, but the "bums on the street" list is pretty picked over, at this point.

Simply put, a man that preaches aggressive execution of proper technique, and holds players accountable, would make a night and day difference. See, at least a new face would feel the pressure to prove his worth. Compared to our current situation, where the incumbent feels comfortable and is complacent.

These linemen on the Cincinnati roster were all good in college, every single one of them. What Sunset said is true and a different coach who doesn't teach an obsolete blocking technique could make a difference.

[*bengalfan74*]

Nope we need a center as well

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-18-2017, 12:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It had nothing to do with Zampese. It had to do with having a terrible Center and allowing Ced and Fisher to play.

The OC isn't the one that handles the blocking schemes...that's Paul Alexander the line coach.

And I doubt that the playbook changes much. The plays that get called in a game may change slightly...but the overall plays they pick from will be the same.

Completely disagree.  The OC actually played in to the strengths of the opponent's defense, by bunching them in with only two damn options in a pattern.  Waste your best red zone threat in as a blocker, rotate backs like you are using the Magic 8 ball, and have your QB sit on the EXACT SAME SPOT for the entire Ravens game without moving the pocket once.  

The OC should have been fired and was justifiably shown the door.  Now, Lazer needs to get Dalton more than two targets in a pattern and open up this offense.  

[Bengalfan4life27c]

The mighty NY Giants have scored 13 points through 2 games. They have faced the mighty juggernaut defenses of the Cowboys and Lions. another contender with a worse line than us.

[McC]

(09-19-2017, 12:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Nope. You're missing what I'm saying.

Alexander's scheme is to play passive and let the defensive lineman engage our lineman...as opposed to being aggressive and attacking.

The OC may decide to pull a Guard on a run, etc. But Alexander is the one who sets the fundamental tone of the line by teaching a passive blocking scheme.

Hill's rookie year, I remember our D getting torched by the Steelers running Bell on the counter trey, (which, I believe, was a play invented by PB).  Seems like it was the very next game, we started running it and having great success with it.

So, look at the best running teams in the league who may not have a dominating line and steal the hell out of it.  Everything for our offense would benefit incredibly by finding a way to run the ball.  Here's hoping he can at least figure that much out.

If he can, maybe some other things might start to fall into place.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-18-2017, 07:58 PM)Steve Wrote: Mixon in rd #2 is not a wasted pick....
it was the steal of the draft....

& at our spot in rd # 1 there wasn't an OT worthy of that spot.....we would of had to of traded down.....& that's risky & it requires a trading partner.....& we HAD  to give Ced a shot at starting at LT....
but perhaps next year we should spend every pick we have on O-line players.....
it just seems this team always wants a garbage center...Every yr I want us to pick one in rd # 2 but when we do pick one its always rd #4....& he's weak.....gets shoved backwards.....SMH.  

While I agree not a wasted pick, I think Kareem Hunt in Rd 3 might have been the steal of the draft (so far anyway).

[THE PISTONS]

(09-19-2017, 12:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: While I agree not a wasted pick, I think Kareem Hunt in Rd 3 might have been the steal of the draft (so far anyway).

Yep. At some point Mixon is going to have to actually produce on the field to call him the steal of the draft. 

[Hammerstripes]

(09-18-2017, 12:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Fisher and Bodine are actually WORSE than Ced. And Johnson and Boling haven't been much better:

Thus far, through 2 games:

Fisher grades out at 36.6.
Bodine grades out at 38.5.
Ogbuehi grades out at 38.6.
TJ Johnson grades out at 43.7.
Clint Boling grades out at 44.7.

https://twitter.com/pff_cincinnati

Our offensive line is terrible. Even Boling is bad.

I think its safe to say that NOBODY on here thought that just replacing Ced would fix the issue.

And please, enough the PFF crap, it's a joke.

That being said, it's obvious to me (and everyone else) that Bodine is as bad if not worse than Ced.  There is no way that Fisher is worse then both of them, he actually looks like he's a fairly competent RT with some upside.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-19-2017, 01:44 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I think its safe to say that NOBODY on here thought that just replacing Ced would fix the issue.

And please, enough the PFF crap, it's a joke.

That being said, it's obvious to me (and everyone else) that Bodine is as bad if not worse than Ced.  There is no way that Fisher is worse then both of them, he actually looks like he's a fairly competent RT with some upside.

Oh...I did a thread about Rebuilding and a lot of fans just said new HC and LT and we're good to go.

It's not quite that simple.

At minimum we probably need 4 new offensive lineman and a TE as I don't think Eifert is the answer at TE.

And who knows what we'll need on defense. Guys like Vigil and Billings haven't looked too good.

[Bengal Dude]

(09-18-2017, 08:27 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: LOL, the man is paid to perform regardless who is lines up next to him. And yes, last year next to Whitt he started regressing.

I don't but the guy next to him sucks, so he can suck too. Browns has a OT named Thomas who has crap next to him, but has had a great career and his play did not regress.

Bobbie Williams, who many hold in high regard here, looked bad in 2008. He was sandwiched between Stacy Andrews and Eric Ghiaciuc. Both of them were replaced entering 2009 and Bobbie suddenly looked like his old self.

[fortyyearfan]

everyone that knows anything about football,knows you build your team starting with the lines,O and D.They are your foundation.Nothing comes before them.you MUST have top talent on the lines to begin with,then you put all the skill players around that.Look at the steelers lines,they are dominate,no one gets to big ben if rarely,Those dudes are huge,super strong and know how to block your ass. We have an organization that does not understand the basics of football.Its so insane.This is going to be another losing season.And Andy Dalton will not finish the season.He will be on ir.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-18-2017, 09:37 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Mixon might be. But one of Hill and Gio was a wasted 2nd rounder then. 3 RBs selected in the 2nd round in 4 years. One 1,000 yard season. Yikes


He didn't regress. He played with one arm. His shoulder was shot early in the season and he kept playing. 

And yes, when you are a good, not great LG and the LT is among the league worst and the center is among the league worst....you will look bad too.
That's how the OL works. You have to be able to be a unit and one bad player can sink an entire OL.

Bengals 2nd round picks since Dalton in 2011...
Devon Still (bust)
Giovani Bernard (good complimentary RB but not elite)
Margus Hunt (bust)
Jeremy Hill (maybe good goal line RB but not elite)
Jake Fisher (jury still out, but hasn't been great thus far)
Tyler Boyd (solid rookie season, but healthy scratch last week makes me concerned he's falling on depth chart)
Joe Mixon (too early to judge)

None of these players has become a great player. Out of all of them, Gio has been the best.
Also, it's really puzzling to invest so many 2nd rounders into RBs in such a short span when the league is deemphasizing the position. IMO a team needs only one high RB selection and the rest should be cheap FAs and/or mid-late rounders.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-19-2017, 05:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals 2nd round picks since Dalton in 2011...
Devon Still (bust)
Giovani Bernard (good complimentary RB but not elite)
Margus Hunt (bust)
Jeremy Hill (maybe good goal line RB but not elite)
Jake Fisher (jury still out, but hasn't been great thus far)
Tyler Boyd (solid rookie season, but healthy scratch last week makes me concerned he's falling on depth chart)
Joe Mixon (too early to judge)

None of these players has become a great player. Out of all of them, Gio has been the best.
Also, it's really puzzling to invest so many 2nd rounders into RBs in such a short span when the league is deemphasizing the position. IMO a team needs only one high RB selection and the rest should be cheap FAs and/or mid-late rounders.

That seals you into mediocrity. Our 1st Round picks haven't been much better.