Think Changing LT is all we need to fix the line??? Think again...

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-19-2017, 05:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals 2nd round picks since Dalton in 2011...
Devon Still (bust)
Giovani Bernard (good complimentary RB but not elite)
Margus Hunt (bust)
Jeremy Hill (maybe good goal line RB but not elite)
Jake Fisher (jury still out, but hasn't been great thus far)
Tyler Boyd (solid rookie season, but healthy scratch last week makes me concerned he's falling on depth chart)
Joe Mixon (too early to judge)

None of these players has become a great player. Out of all of them, Gio has been the best.
Also, it's really puzzling to invest so many 2nd rounders into RBs in such a short span when the league is deemphasizing the position. IMO a team needs only one high RB selection and the rest should be cheap FAs and/or mid-late rounders.

I'd make an argument that Hill isn't even a good goal line RB. He's not a very powerful runner for his size. 
He just gets the goal line carries. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

I think Boling is having to make up for Og and Bodine's poor play similar to what Zeit had to do last year who
also looked bad cause of this. Plus Boling is coming off of injury and maybe isn't 100% like we all were led to
believe. No excuses for what PA is doing though.

This passive blocking scheme is just plain fricking stupid.

This guy should of left with Zampese.

[Millhouse]

AS of now ideal solution:
New o-line coach, tackle, tackle, guard, & center.

realistic solution by Bengals:
Paul A. gets an extension, draft a guard in 5th round, and reduce buffet privileges to Andre

[Hammerstripes]

(09-19-2017, 03:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Oh...I did a thread about Rebuilding and a lot of fans just said new HC and LT and we're good to go.

It's not quite that simple.

At minimum we probably need 4 new offensive lineman and a TE as I don't think Eifert is the answer at TE.

And who knows what we'll need on defense. Guys like Vigil and Billings haven't looked too good.

I wouldn't say we need 4 new lineman.  You can make a case that Boling, Hopkins and Fisher would be ok if paired with good  lineman.

I'm not as down on Fisher as a lot of people are.

[Hammerstripes]

(09-19-2017, 06:05 PM)Millhouse Wrote: AS of now ideal solution:
New o-line coach, tackle, tackle, guard, & center.

realistic solution by Bengals:
Paul A. gets an extension, draft a guard in 5th round, and reduce buffet privileges to Andre

In all fairness, the Bengals haven't been afraid to invest high picks on OGs.  Zeitler and Steinbach are two examples.

Now, if they would only take that approach to C.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-19-2017, 06:42 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I wouldn't say we need 4 new lineman.  You can make a case that Boling, Hopkins and Fisher would be ok if paired with good  lineman.

I'm not as down on Fisher as a lot of people are.

He actually grades out worse on PFF than Ced does.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-19-2017, 05:56 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I'd make an argument that Hill isn't even a good goal line RB. He's not a very powerful runner for his size. 
He just gets the goal line carries. 

That was kind of my point. It's just kinda what he's been best at, not that he's a great option.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-19-2017, 09:01 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He actually grades out worse on PFF than Ced does.

He does, but that's primarily because he got rick rolled against JJ Watt. I expect him to be better than Ced by season's end when it comes to ratings/rankings.

[Luvnit2]

(09-19-2017, 09:43 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He does, but that's primarily because he got rick rolled against JJ Watt. I expect him to be better than Ced by season's end when it comes to ratings/rankings.

You do realize Watt took turns lining up against Fisher, Ced and Johnson all night. My point is Ced saw Watt as much as Fisher did against the Texans.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-20-2017, 11:54 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You do realize Watt took turns lining up against Fisher, Ced and Johnson all night. My point is Ced saw Watt as much as Fisher did against the Texans.

No, I didn't realize that because I wasn't going back to look at every snap. I just know Watt traditionally lines up across from the RT.

[Luvnit2]

(09-20-2017, 11:56 AM)ochocincos Wrote: No, I didn't realize that because I wasn't going back to look at every snap. I just know Watt traditionally lines up across from the RT.

Actually, no he lines up everywhere. My group at the game kept discussing it. Dunlap moved inside a few times as well, but for the most part our guys line up the same place, the Texans DL did not.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-20-2017, 12:24 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Actually, no he lines up everywhere. My group at the game kept discussing it. Dunlap moved inside a few times as well, but for the most part our guys line up the same place, the Texans DL did not.

OK. I'm just recalling where I often noticed him lining up over the years, which back in 2014 at least was mostly at LDE.
http://www.espn.com/blog/houston-texans/post/_/id/8581/the-many-places-j-j-watt-lines-up

And most times I've seen him in a highlight reel, I see him winning against a RT, so that's why I still assumed he's mostly playing from LDE.
But you're right, he does line up everywhere. I'm curious to see his snap count by spot by end of this year.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 12:24 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Actually, no he lines up everywhere. My group at the game kept discussing it. Dunlap moved inside a few times as well, but for the most part our guys line up the same place, the Texans DL did not.

I thought Watt lined up at both DE spots too. And maybe inside...although I don't remember that.

[BengalChris]

(09-18-2017, 12:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Fisher and Bodine are actually WORSE than Ced. And Johnson and Boling haven't been much better:

Thus far, through 2 games:

Fisher grades out at 36.6.
Bodine grades out at 38.5.
Ogbuehi grades out at 38.6.
TJ Johnson grades out at 43.7.
Clint Boling grades out at 44.7.

https://twitter.com/pff_cincinnati

Our offensive line is terrible. Even Boling is bad.

Yeah, the value Mike Brown places on the offensive line is pretty low. We have to draft top talent each and every year for the OL for it be and stay good. He isn't going to resign the good ones any more. They want too much money these days and rookies are cheap. So it's all about talent evaluation and actually selecting to the good ones.

[TexasT]

1.  How many snap counts does Fisher have?  How does he look/rank compared to Ced at same snap count?  Had Fish played in the last 6-8 games last year he'd be a lot farther down the road and we'd better understand his potential.

2.  Top OCs at any level understand their players strengths, position coaches abilities and opposing defenses to develop plays based on the strengths of all.  Likewise, may need to tweak things based on weaknesses.  Easy... nope!  Crazy to think some coaches still operate in the realm of "this is what we do" and try to just plug in guys.  Works good if said guys are the right guys and on your roster.  Recipe for disaster if not.  

[redwood]

(09-18-2017, 12:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I'm willing to give Boling the benefit of the doubt for now. We've seen he can be an above average guard. Maybe he's slow to come back from his shoulder injury.

The rest do need replaced. It's why I spent the entire offseason laughing (crying) that they left Whit go, ignored FA as usual, and then wasted their first and second round picks on a WR and RB. Then people actually thought the team would be any good.

Expectations were for HIGH picks to develop at the expected pace.   I never expected we'd  use a rd 1 or rd 2 on O'Line  just yet. I DID expect we'd  be taking guys rd 3-4.

Bengals can't just tread water.  I want to see a PROCESS,a PATTERN where we Figure out stuff,build the skills for whoever we HAVE. If we FAIL to make our recent high picks FUNCTIONAL.....How can I assume we'll Get Lucky with the NEXT group in?

I'm curious about our NEXT few games. I HOPE to see a learning curve.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-20-2017, 11:42 PM)TexasT Wrote: 1.  How many snap counts does Fisher have?  How does he look/rank compared to Ced at same snap count?  Had Fish played in the last 6-8 games last year he'd be a lot farther down the road and we'd better understand his potential.

2.  Top OCs at any level understand their players strengths, position coaches abilities and opposing defenses to develop plays based on the strengths of all.  Likewise, may need to tweak things based on weaknesses.  Easy... nope!  Crazy to think some coaches still operate in the realm of "this is what we do" and try to just plug in guys.  Works good if said guys are the right guys and on your roster.  Recipe for disaster if not.  

I don't know that playing more is actually making much of a difference for either of these guys. They're both TERRIBLE lineman at this point.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-20-2017, 11:42 PM)TexasT Wrote: 1.  How many snap counts does Fisher have?  How does he look/rank compared to Ced at same snap count?  Had Fish played in the last 6-8 games last year he'd be a lot farther down the road and we'd better understand his potential.

2.  Top OCs at any level understand their players strengths, position coaches abilities and opposing defenses to develop plays based on the strengths of all.  Likewise, may need to tweak things based on weaknesses.  Easy... nope!  Crazy to think some coaches still operate in the realm of "this is what we do" and try to just plug in guys.  Works good if said guys are the right guys and on your roster.  Recipe for disaster if not.  

Nice post TexasT. This just plugging in players is obviously not working. You need to access the players strengths and
weaknesses and adjust accordingly for the best of the team. But of course Marv thinks that in game adjustments are
just "journalistic jargon".

(09-21-2017, 05:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't know that playing more is actually making much of a difference for either of these guys. They're both TERRIBLE lineman at this point.

To think that more snaps will not help a young player get better in the NFL is completely ignorant.

You are just hating to just hate here. With more snaps young Lineman usually get better.

Maybe they get better maybe they don't, but i would bet they get better not worse with more snaps.

[firstand10]

Just thinking. Do you think Marvin sees the writing on the wall? So he drafts  poorly and a new coach(?) will inherit his poor decisions?

[THE PISTONS]

(09-22-2017, 01:29 PM)firstand10 Wrote: Just thinking. Do you think Marvin sees the writing on the wall? So he drafts  poorly and a new coach(?) will inherit his poor decisions?

I don't think Marvin is trying to do things poorly...but he's been here what 13 years? I think the organizational culture has infected him. I think he realizes that he's not going to win a Super Bowl here and probably isn't putting in the effort he did when he was a new HC here.