Marvin Lewis - The Ultimate Catch 22

[THE PISTONS]

So, the guy is 0-7 in the playoffs and I think we all want a new coach. So why is this a question?

Well, the Bengals are ran differently than the rest of the NFL. They have an owner and his family who act as the GM. They have an extremely small scouting department. They don't actively spend in free agency. They allow free agents that want more money than they think they are worth leave touting the Comp Pick they will receive as being valuable. The coaches do the scouting here...which is hard to do with college football season overlapping with the NFL season so they must have to rely on workouts. The front office also takes a lot of chances with players with red flags who likely aren't the easiest to coach.

Generally his teams have some glaring personnel flaws that could be addressed in free agency...like Center and a LB who could cover a TE. This year 4 offensive lineman.

Not a lot of coaches could come in here and succeed under those constraints. He's turned us respectable. After all, this franchise hasn't won a single playoff game since modern free agency began...while some 23 teams have appeared in a Super Bowl over that same time span.

From a coaching side, we have more good seasons than bad...however he's 0-7 in the playoffs. For atleast a couple of those seasons, we were the superior team and should have won a playoff game. The hallmark of his teams seem to be folding when the pressure is on. Also, they tend to not adjust to the opponents strategy.

When you haven't won a playoff game in 26+ years it obviously becomes as much mental as physical. In many a big game and playoff game the team comes out flat.

Also, I question if the coaching staff is adequately developing players in practice.

re: Zampese - While Marvin is a defensive coach, he should have known that Zampese's offense was too complex.

In regards to replacing him, NO BIG NAME COACH is going to come here and work under the constraints of the Brown family. Coughlin had unresolved personnel dept issues after his interviews here. ie He either wanted a GM or to be the GM.

Why don't the Brown Family fire Marvin? He has a nice personality and has been willing to work under the constraints set forth. Any new hire will surely clash with them atleast a little bit. Maybe more.

Thoughts? Where do we go? Can ANY coach overcome the organization?

[THE PISTONS]

As far as replacements...people like Guenther because...well he's someone new that isn't Marvin.

I just don't see the fire in him. I also see him do stupid things in games like dropping Dunlap into Zone coverage.

Our defense, while probably the strength of the team does indeed give up big plays that prove to be the dagger. Whether it be a 49 yard TD run from Watson. Or a long pass to Allison against the Packers.

[BengalChris]

Yeah, the Brown family, likeness to Paul only in name, are the scourge of NFL owners. There's no need to look any further than Mike Brown to understand why this team fails year in and year out and has done so ever since he named himself GM.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-25-2017, 10:49 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Yeah, the Brown family, likeness to Paul only in name, are the scourge of NFL owners. There's no need to look any further than Mike Brown to understand why this team fails year in and year out and has done so ever since he named himself GM.

Best example: We draft guys in the 1st Round and rarely start them in Year 1...if they even play. Yet we draft a Center in the 4th Round in Bodine and don't bring in any competition and just hand him the starting job. Center has been a weakness on this team now for what 4 years?

I heard the Falcons GM talking about how they never prioritized Centers...then they signed Alex Mack and he totally changed their offense. They now value interior offensive line.

[TheUberHuber]

(09-25-2017, 10:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: As far as replacements...people like Guenther because...well he's someone new that isn't Marvin.

I just don't see the fire in him. I also see him do stupid things in games like dropping Dunlap into Zone coverage.

Our defense, while probably the strength of the team does indeed give up big plays that prove to be the dagger. Whether it be a 49 yard TD run from Watson. Or a long pass to Allison against the Packers.

Add calling cover 0 at the 50 yard line to the list of stupid shit you see guenther doing. 

[THE PISTONS]

The sucky thing is IF the Bengals moved on from Marvin after he was 0-5 in the playoffs...the new HC would have inherited a really good roster. Now through free agent losses and aging of players...we're entering a rebuild.

And when you don't spend aggressively in free agency...that rebuild can be prolonged.

[Pat5775]

No. It's not a catch 22.

What we are seeing here is Marvins team. Based on a lot of things I've read about over the past few years, I truly believe Marv has the vast majority of control now. I believe that Mike Brown has taken a significant step back and is almost a non factor these days. The players, the plays, the staff, all handpicked by Marv.

Marvin Lewis is far and away the biggest problem this team currently has. And what scares me the most is how much control he has... Would the Brown family be willing to let go of their de facto GM/Head coach? And would they be willing to give the next HC just as much control right from the start, or will they have to spend several years earning the family's trust? That all remains to be seen.

So no, I wouldn't say it's a catch 22. Getting rid of Marvin would be a huge step in the right direction. Granted the team could make a shitty hire to replace him but I'm beyond ready to take that chance. We know what we're going to get with Marvin: winless in the postseason, losing 3/4 of the time in Primetime games, second half collapses and a complete lack of "journalist jargon", being the steelers bitches, confusion on how timeouts work, and pathetic giggling through every press conference

It's way past time to move on.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-25-2017, 11:12 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: No. It's not a catch 22.

What we are seeing here is Marvins team. Based on a lot of things I've read about over the past few years, I truly believe Marv has the vast majority of control now. I believe that Mike Brown has taken a significant step back and is almost a non factor these days. The players, the plays, the staff, all handpicked by Marv.

Marvin Lewis is far and away the biggest problem this team currently has. And what scares me the most is how much control he has... Would the Brown family be willing to let go of their de facto GM/Head coach? And would they be willing to give the next HC just as much control right from the start, or will they have to spend several years earning the family's trust? That all remains to be seen.

So no, I wouldn't say it's a catch 22. Getting rid of Marvin would be a huge step in the right direction. Granted the team could make a shitty hire to replace him but I'm beyond ready to take that chance. We know what we're going to get with Marvin: winless in the postseason, losing 3/4 of the time in Primetime games, second half collapses and a complete lack of "journalist jargon", being the steelers bitches, confusion on how timeouts work, and pathetic giggling through every press conference

It's way past time to move on.

So you think Marvin was like leave Whitworth and Zeitler leave even though we had $21.6 million in cap space???

[Pat5775]

(09-25-2017, 11:14 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So you think Marvin was like leave Whitworth and Zeitler leave even though we had $21.6 million in cap space???

No, nobody "let" anybody leave. Both of those guys took the money to play elsewhere. I know efforts were made to keep Whitworth, but he left on his own accord. Efforts were made to keep Zeitler as well, but what he got in Cleveland? How could he turn that down?

It sucks, and losing them crippled this team but it's not like they willingly let them get away

[grampahol]

Marvin will go down in history as the single greatest Washington Generals HOF coach. It's my belief that it's by design. I think if Marvin were head coach of any big market team they'd consistently win in the post season, but he accepted the role of Washington Generals type coach in exchange for job security. It was never intended for Marvin to make this team into a true contender, but rather the team that facilitates winning for big markets where the real money is at. 
Think about that a moment. Say that YOU suddenly were in charge of making sure that the league made money. Would you make sure that the teams with the lions share of the fan base won or gamble with small markets with much smaller fan bases? I'm no financial genius, but even I would insure that at least one small market franchise would NEVER overtake the big market franchises and would make sure that team had a coach who understands that simple financial arrangement.. I think Marvin understands it and has been wildly successful in doing so. 
That's not conspiracy theory stuff, it's business 101. 

[THE PISTONS]

(09-25-2017, 11:29 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: No, nobody "let" anybody leave. Both of those guys took the money to play elsewhere. I know efforts were made to keep Whitworth, but he left on his own accord. Efforts were made to keep Zeitler as well, but what he got in Cleveland? How could he turn that down?

It sucks, and losing them crippled this team but it's not like they willingly let them get away

Whitworth could have been franchise tagged. The Bengals assumed he'd never leave. They were supposedly walking around the combine telling people Whitworth was coming back and it angered him.


From what I've seen...the Bengals never negotiated with Zeitler. They just let him go. A year before he was a free agent, if they swooped in and offerred him a DeCastro size contract...he probably stays. Zeitler was absolutely willingly let go as they don't highly value Guard.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-25-2017, 11:33 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Whitworth could have been franchise tagged. The Bengals assumed he'd never leave. They were supposedly walking around the combine telling people Whitworth was coming back and it angered him.


From what I've seen...the Bengals never negotiated with Zeitler. They just let him go. A year before he was a free agent, if they swooped in and offerred him a DeCastro size contract...he probably stays. Zeitler was absolutely willingly let go as they don't highly value Guard.

Absolutely. Had they EXTENDED Zeit, and tagged Whit.....we'd be in better shape today.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-25-2017, 11:35 AM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely. Had they EXTENDED Zeit, and tagged Whit.....we'd be in better shape today.

It's funny...some fans blame Marvin...then I bring up the offensive line's poor play and how the left Whitworth and Zeitler leave despite having some $21 million in cap space at the time...and fans come back with some variation of 'They were overpaid.'

We had the cap space! What are we saving all of this money for?

3 years ago when we had a good team we didn't sign free agents because we were saving for this year. Well it's this year and we're terrible!

Some fans root for Mike Brown's wallet more than the team.

[*bengalfan74*]

I doubt seriously any coach can overcome Mike Browns meddling but I'm damn sure ready to try !

15 years is way more than enough tries for me.

[*pally*]

Zampeses offense was less complex than Hue Jackson's. The problem is that Zampese kept trying to force hos personnel into his scheme. Physically and talent-wise, the team, most especially the OL couldn't perform. They couldn't or wouldn't make the adjustments necessary to make the offense successful. And that ultimately is on Marvin.
Dalton's worst performances of his career have come with Lazor as his QB coach so let's promote him...that's on Marvin
We have had for years and years teams that lack passion and discipline most especially at crucial moments of games and seasons....that's on Marvin.
We have lost numerous games because we failed to make adjustments, had poor time mgmt, had poor play calling at crucial times...that is on Marvin
How many games have we lost because if seemingly poor preparation both mentally and game planning...that's on Marvin.
If Lewis couldn't succeed because of management yet has stayed on the job for over a decade that's on Marvin
We have had the personnel to go further in the playoffs than we have but we haven't made it the jump from good to elite...that's on Marvin.
So to answer the question...yes there can be success here but we now need someone who can take the team to the next level. And as much as I credit Marvin for taking for pulling us out of the abyss I also have thought for some time that we need someone else to take us the rest of the way.
Can they do it with the current ownership absolutely. At the time of their drafts we were excited about the steals we got in our current OL players and so were many so called experts. If mike brown forced a player on him then Marvin compounded the problem by actually putting that player on the field. Every coach and personnel director is going to have busts...everyone of them. Our failures, or more specifically, Marvins failures have come from his coaching and game mgmt not his skills as a personnel manager.
Mike Brown has a reputation for being cheap but he is also loyal and provides his coaches time to develop. That is very attractive to a coordinator looking to move up. The Bengals have produced 4 current NFL Head coaches including 2 minorities...that's all in addition to Marvin...that is attractive to prospective coaches. Duke Tobin is considered a top notch director of player personnel...that is very attractive to potential coaches. We may not have all the current pieces but we have enough quality players that this is not a total rebuild (see Jets, Browns, Rams)...thats extremely attractive to coaching candidates. So yeah, if or when the Bengals move on from Lewis they will attract top candidates. The challenge comes down to selecting the right one.

[McC]

What level of sucking will Marvin have to reach to get shit canned? How many losses will it take?

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-25-2017, 12:13 PM)McC Wrote: What level of sucking will Marvin have to reach to get shit canned?  How many losses will it take?

There's the famous 64 dollar question. I really seriously doubt Mike will fire Marvin in season. 0-8 or somein ? Maybe

Best we can hope for I'd say is no new contract at the end of this season.

[McC]

(09-25-2017, 12:19 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: There's the famous 64 dollar question. I really seriously doubt Mike will fire Marvin in season. 0-8 or somein ? Maybe

Best we can hope for I'd say is no new contract at the end of this season.

Whatever that level is, that's what I'm rooting for.  Whatever it takes to get his ass out of here is my hope for this season.  So yes, I will be rooting for losses.  Can't believe it's come to this.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-25-2017, 12:21 PM)McC Wrote: Whatever that level is, that's what I'm rooting for.  Whatever it takes to get his ass out of here is my hope for this season.  So yes, I will be rooting for losses.  Can't believe it's come to this.

I'm right with ya McC 

I'm so sick of the Marvin Lewis #$%@ story I could puke !

[THE PISTONS]

(09-25-2017, 12:19 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: There's the famous 64 dollar question. I really seriously doubt Mike will fire Marvin in season. 0-8 or somein ? Maybe

Best we can hope for I'd say is no new contract at the end of this season.

I doubt that any coach can fix this.

The organization allows free agents to leave and touts that as a strategy because they get comp picks.

We've been Bengals fans so long that we think this is normal operating procedures. It isn't!