Dalton's weapons

[THE PISTONS]

(09-25-2017, 09:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I mean, that's hardly news.

We have a ton of yearly threads about how great Ryan Whalen, Dane Sanzenbacher, Bernard Scott, Dezmon Briscoe, Josh Malone, etc, etc, etc, are going to be.

Mohamed Sanu had those 4 TDs in 3 games as a rookie and people were jizzing their pants about how great he was going to be.
Heck, right before this season started I remember seeing a thread about how the Bengals had "4 great TEs" or something like that. Gushing over Kroft and Hewitt.

That's always been a pretty big thing here.

Armon Binns...#2 WR on the rise!

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-25-2017, 09:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Armon Binns...#2 WR on the rise!

What? I can't believe I somehow forgot Armon Binns on my list before I went to the etcs.... Did you know: that dude was playing Calvin Johnson for the scout team on the practice squad and he was UNCOVERABLE!



Honestly, I went at it with an skill player mindset since that's the topic of this thread, but really the same applies to the all the players as well. Margus "Olmypic Workout" Hunt, Darqueze "Best Rookie CB Ever" Dennard, Nick "Chuck Norris" Vigil, Cedric "Natural Position" Ogbuehi, Chase "One Of These Days" Coffman (who I was assured after he was cut by the Bengals that he would go on to be a Pro Bowl TE), basically any young DT in the preseason the last 5 years, etc, etc, etc.

[*jason*]

(09-25-2017, 09:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What? I can't believe I somehow forgot Armon Binns on my list before I went to the etcs.... Did you know: that dude was playing Calvin Johnson for the scout team on the practice squad and he was UNCOVERABLE!

Dude had a nice game in the 2012 home opener. Looked like Chad out there again... 85!

[bengalhoel]

The Weapons really dont matter unless you have great coaching to utilize them.

What good would have Goodfellas been with Michael Bay directing it?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-25-2017, 09:44 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: The Weapons really dont matter unless you have great coaching to utilize them.

What good would have Goodfellas been with Michael Bay directing it?

...And more explosions than any two wars put together. I mean sure, the script, acting, and everything would be atrocious. You'd probably have to suffer through Shia LaBeof (don't bother talking to me about him not being alive yet, it'd happen somehow). But there would be explosions.


(Jokes aside, I do think you're right that good coaches can make mediocre weapons good, but I still do think there's a large element of overhyping random joes.)

[NATI BENGALS]

2 first round WRs. 1 2nd round WR. 1 first round te. 3 2nd round RBs. 1st and 2nd round tackles.

That is a lot.

We give Tobin a lot of credit. Im starting to think a little too much

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-25-2017, 09:52 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: 2 first round WRs. 1 2nd round WR. 1 first round te. 3 2nd round RBs. 1st and 2nd round tackles.

That is a lot.

We give Tobin a lot of credit. Im starting to think a little too much

And not much to show from it other than AJ Green, which wasn't exactly a tough pick to hit on (AJ Green or Julio Jones? You win either way.) and a talented, but constantly hurt Eifert.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2017, 09:03 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: The point is that every season we hear how Dalton has the top weapons in the league. We severely overvalue players on here. That's the point. I'm not saying he's surrounded by scrubs, I'm just saying it's not hard to find teams that have had just as much if not more talent surrounding them than Dalton.

While I agree with what you say, I still stand by my comment about a franchise QB should be able to elevate those around him.  

And again, I ask;  Have you seen that with our franchise QB?

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-25-2017, 09:44 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: The Weapons really dont matter unless you have great coaching to utilize them.

What good would have Goodfellas been with Michael Bay directing it?

For sure

[NATI BENGALS]

(09-25-2017, 10:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: While I agree with what you say, I still stand by my comment about a franchise QB should be able to elevate those around him.  

And again, I ask;  Have you seen that with our franchise QB?

No it is the opposite. A HoF WR and a couple good OCs made our QB appear to be a franchise QB. It was a mirage

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-25-2017, 10:12 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: While I agree with what you say, I still stand by my comment about a franchise QB should be able to elevate those around him.  

And again, I ask;  Have you seen that with our franchise QB?

Sure there's SOME elevation going on with other QBs, but lets be honest. Teams with great QBs surround them with great talent...

For example, Peyton Manning had Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Wes Welker, Dallas Clark, Pierre Garcon, etc.

Tom Brady gets more out of his surrounding talent from superior coaching/scheme, but he still had Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Julian Edelman, Brandin Cooks, and they've always made sure to surround him with good TEs... Rob Gronkowski, Aaron Hernandez (he WAS good at football), Martellus Bennett, Ben Watson.

[Devils Advocate]

(09-25-2017, 09:25 PM)Brimey Wrote: We don't rush well. We don't pass block well. And our QB is weak when pressured. Seems a recipe for disaster. Teams can just pin their ears back and double Green.

And when he's one on one with eight in the box you throw it to him every single time. This a play that Andy missed against GB.

I remember a lot of talk about how Palmer couldn't/wasn't allowed to call TO's. I never really believed that. However, after witnessing Andy's 'regression' since last season, I'm beginning to believe some of those rumors. What else could it be? Why would a QB whose seen it all not audible & run a play that delivers the RB right into the mouth of a blitz? It makes absolutely no sense, unless he's being told to do or not to do something. And that makes much more sense, considering we've seen this all play out before with Carson.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-25-2017, 11:07 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: And when he's one on one with eight in the box you throw it to him every single time. This a play that Andy missed against GB.

I remember a lot of talk about how Palmer couldn't/wasn't allowed to call TO's. I never really believed that. However, after witnessing Andy's 'regression' since last season, I'm beginning to believe some of those rumors. What else could it be? Why would a QB whose seen it all not audible & run a play that delivers the RB right into the mouth of a blitz? It makes absolutely no sense, unless he's being told to do or not to do something. And that makes much more sense, considering we've seen this all play out before with Carson.

I feel like Dalton was allowed to do that quite a bit in Hue's offense.

I also wonder how well our WRs even know what the hell they're doing, sometimes. Like the first play of OT where they had to take the timeout, Dalton was spending the whole time trying to fix his WRs lining up incorrectly. Then they just ended up with that crap run after the TO.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-25-2017, 08:58 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What is your point?  That's the breaks, in the NFL.  A good QB can elevate those around him to a higher level.  The question you must ask yourself;  Are we seeing that, from our franchise QB?

Being apparently the lone Dalton supporter on the boards, I will ask:  What has the team done to help him?  They did enough to make a #1 overall pick at QB (that actually had a great offensive line and running game) want to take his ball and go home.  

A mere two years ago, he was dicing up teams like a Ginger Ninja and was being mentioned as a potential NFL MVP, but then the Bengals are too F'n stupid to just tell Marv he was gone and give Hue the job on the spot instead of the stupid succession plan and here we are.  We ALL knew Marv had lost the team, but we went on to lose our 3rd and 4th quality coach (Hue and Vance) to other opportunities.

I will kill Dalton for taking a sack before Fat Randy shanked (I would have bet my house he was going to miss that kick...you just knew it), but he played a very good game overall with:

AJ Green

Brandon Lafell
Tyler Kroft
Tyler Boyd

And one of the worst, actually...who is worse?  The worst offensive lines in football.  Not much of a running game to speak of, and he was very, very good despite every weapon not named AJ being a backup on virtually any other team in the NFL. 

Lazor has to realize that I could cover Lafell, and he needs to get Core out there, as well as Ross when healthy.  

Dalton is going to make everyone on this board owe him a huge apology (again) despite this lack of weapons and protection.....oh, and before this week, a clown of an OC as well.

But, yeah, Dalton sucks...

[SunsetBengal]

(09-26-2017, 08:20 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Being apparently the lone Dalton supporter on the boards, I will ask:  What has the team done to help him?  They did enough to make a #1 overall pick at QB (that actually had a great offensive line and running game) want to take his ball and go home.  

A mere two years ago, he was dicing up teams like a Ginger Ninja and was being mentioned as a potential NFL MVP, but then the Bengals are too F'n stupid to just tell Marv he was gone and give Hue the job on the spot instead of the stupid succession plan and here we are.  We ALL knew Marv had lost the team, but we went on to lose our 3rd and 4th quality coach (Hue and Vance) to other opportunities.

I will kill Dalton for taking a sack before Fat Randy shanked (I would have bet my house he was going to miss that kick...you just knew it), but he played a very good game overall with:

AJ Green

Brandon Lafell
Tyler Kroft
Tyler Boyd

And one of the worst, actually...who is worse?  The worst offensive lines in football.  Not much of a running game to speak of, and he was very, very good despite every weapon not named AJ being a backup on virtually any other team in the NFL. 

Lazor has to realize that I could cover Lafell, and he needs to get Core out there, as well as Ross when healthy.  

Dalton is going to make everyone on this board owe him a huge apology (again) despite this lack of weapons and protection.....oh, and before this week, a clown of an OC as well.

But, yeah, Dalton sucks...

It's not like they're surrounding Andy with a bunch of bums.

Lafell  3rd round pick
Kroft   3rd round pick
Boyd    2nd round pick

3 second round RBs

Not to mention a 1st round TE that can't stay healthy.

When Andy has been successful, so much of that success has been conditional.  There is plenty of talent on the team.  It is time for the franchise QB to rise up, elevate those around him, and lead the team to some victories.  

[*Nately120*]

(09-26-2017, 08:20 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Being apparently the lone Dalton supporter on the boards, I will ask:  What has the team done to help him?  They did enough to make a #1 overall pick at QB (that actually had a great offensive line and running game) want to take his ball and go home.  

A mere two years ago, he was dicing up teams like a Ginger Ninja and was being mentioned as a potential NFL MVP, but then the Bengals are too F'n stupid to just tell Marv he was gone and give Hue the job on the spot instead of the stupid succession plan and here we are.  We ALL knew Marv had lost the team, but we went on to lose our 3rd and 4th quality coach (Hue and Vance) to other opportunities.

I will kill Dalton for taking a sack before Fat Randy shanked (I would have bet my house he was going to miss that kick...you just knew it), but he played a very good game overall with:

AJ Green

Brandon Lafell
Tyler Kroft
Tyler Boyd

And one of the worst, actually...who is worse?  The worst offensive lines in football.  Not much of a running game to speak of, and he was very, very good despite every weapon not named AJ being a backup on virtually any other team in the NFL. 

Lazor has to realize that I could cover Lafell, and he needs to get Core out there, as well as Ross when healthy.  

Dalton is going to make everyone on this board owe him a huge apology (again) despite this lack of weapons and protection.....oh, and before this week, a clown of an OC as well.

But, yeah, Dalton sucks...

If Dalton isn't man enough to win the Bengal's way then he can take his ball and go home like Carson.  And by go home I mean spend the next 7+ years playing for NFL franchises that actually hire GMs and scouts, have indoor practice facilities, hold their HC's accountable, don't fill their front offices with nepotistic losers and get closer to the Super Bowl than the Bengals have been since the Reagan administration.

Go ahead, Dalton.  Be a coward and go to an NFL team that actually operates like an NFL franchise.  I dares ya! You'll be sorry when Marvin Lewis isn't there to carry your dead weight and raise the proverbial Titanic like he did here.

[Hoofhearted]

Meh - it's the perfect storm of mediocrity. Very average to below average FO, decent coaches, good players = an average/above average team. The blame here is 100% on Mike Brown. He's more worried about feelings than building a winner. Cardinal rule in football really...can't let the human/emotional aspect of football hinder being a smart business man.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-25-2017, 09:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: What? I can't believe I somehow forgot Armon Binns on my list before I went to the etcs.... Did you know: that dude was playing Calvin Johnson for the scout team on the practice squad and he was UNCOVERABLE!



Honestly, I went at it with an skill player mindset since that's the topic of this thread, but really the same applies to the all the players as well. Margus "Olmypic Workout" Hunt, Darqueze "Best Rookie CB Ever" Dennard, Nick "Chuck Norris" Vigil, Cedric "Natural Position" Ogbuehi, Chase "One Of These Days" Coffman (who I was assured after he was cut by the Bengals that he would go on to be a Pro Bowl TE), basically any young DT in the preseason the last 5 years, etc, etc, etc.

Mathias Askew...was from a while ago but I kept hearing how strong he ways.

Remember Jerome Simpson? 2nd Round pick that was drafted way higher than expected...then didn't play for years. Had 1 good year, then left in free agency.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-25-2017, 09:25 PM)Brimey Wrote: We don't rush well. We don't pass block well. And our QB is weak when pressured. Seems a recipe for disaster. Teams can just pin their ears back and double Green.

Many of Dalton's misfires have been when he's not actually been pressured. There have been times in those situations where he prematurely started scrambling because he doesn't trust the OL whatsoever.

[*Synric*]

In 2013 and 2015 Dalton was near the top of the list against pressure. 2014, 2016, and so far 2017 he's been below average to near the bottom. That tells me WRs need to get open on their hot routes as well as having a pocket to escape into...