Dalton's weapons

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-26-2017, 07:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not arguing for keeping Dalton so much as I'm arguing that changing QBs isn't the magic elixir to cure all ills with this team.

By all means, swap Dalton out. Then be amazed when this team continues to have the same issues regardless of what QB you throw in the mix.

Nail meet hammer !

I've argued several times you could have brought Brady in here in 11 instead of Dalton and there's no way in hell he'd have the same record as he's had in NE. Would he have done better than Dalton ? most likely. Would he have been in damn near every AFCC game and won 2 or 3 Super Bowls ? no way

This franchise is broken at it's core and needs an enema bad. Complete culture change is only true remedy.

[McC]

(09-26-2017, 02:39 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You hit the nail on the head.

As far as the organizational problems...really is ANY QB going to come in here and overcome them?

-You have coaches that are 0-7 in the playoffs retained.
-You have an offensive line coach that's survived through a decade of terrible offensive line play to be here 25 years now.
-You have a team that lets top free agents go and touts to the fanbase that it's for Comp Picks.
-You have a team that doesn't believe in free agency.
-You have an owner that restricts how much free Gatorade and Deodorant players can use.
-No indoor practice facility.
-An extremely small scouting staff.
-A culture of losing for 26+ years.
-A team that doesn't value Guards and Centers.

And those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Basically to succeed here, lighting in a bottle will need captured. They'll have to acquire an amazing offense in defense within the span of 3-4 drafts because when the guys contracts are up a decent percentage will leave.

It's pretty improbably.

That's exactly what happened on both our SB runs.  And both times, the magic came and went in a hurry.  And they were on Paul's watch.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-26-2017, 07:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm not arguing for keeping Dalton so much as I'm arguing that changing QBs isn't the magic elixir to cure all ills with this team.

By all means, swap Dalton out. Then be amazed when this team continues to have the same issues regardless of what QB you throw in the mix.

I never said replacing Dalton would be a "magic elixir".
I still think OL is the worst part of the team and should be upgraded.

Last I checked, it was possible to upgrade multiple positions in the offseason, and also possible to use FA as well as the draft to do so.
Cutting Dalton would free up some more cap to address the OL while still having money left to extend Atkins and/or Dunlap.

[Bengal Dude]

(09-26-2017, 08:44 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: This franchise is broken at it's core and needs an enema bad. Complete culture change is only true remedy.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-27-2017, 09:43 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I never said replacing Dalton would be a "magic elixir".
I still think OL is the worst part of the team and should be upgraded.

Last I checked, it was possible to upgrade multiple positions in the offseason, and also possible to use FA as well as the draft to do so.
Cutting Dalton would free up some more cap to address the OL while still having money left to extend Atkins and/or Dunlap.

This is the Bengals we're talking about. They aren't going on some free agency splurge regardless of who they cut. They had the money to keep a line in front of the current QB (who has proven good enough to win with) and they simply chose not to. The same thing happened with Palmer.

So what makes you think they'll suddenly decide to protect the next QB?

It's fun to talk about what you or I would do to fix the team, but we know damn well that the Bengals don't operate like other franchises...and that's why we keep having to dump good QBs and pretend they were the problem all along.

[Shake n Blake]

Tbh, I think this theoretical is all moot because it's assuming that Dalton has a terrible season.

Considering he had a 124 rating in game 1 with Lazor, I don't see Dalton having a bad season. Especially considering the line issues.

If that happens, I'd keep Dalton, fix the line and dump Marv and co. Of course that's not likely to happen either. Again...Bengals. I'd love to see Dalton with a good offensive-minded HC though.

[Stonyhands]

(09-25-2017, 08:47 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Someone mentioned how Dalton is surrounded by weapons that other QBs would kill for. I've always felt we overvalued our own weapons. So I looked at teams from 2011-2017 to see if other teams had surrounded their QBs with more talent. I didn't look at every team and I'm sure there are some I should have, but this took a long time and I'm tired of doing it.

Here are Dalton's weapons from 2011-2017

AJ Green
Tyler Eifert
Josh Malone
John Ross
Joe Mixon
Mohamed Sanu
Marvin Jones
Armonn Binns
Brandon Tate
Jake Kumerow
James Wright
Tyler Kroft
CJ Uzomah
Ryan Hewitt
Jermaine Gresham
Andre Caldwell
Jerome Simpson
Cody Core
Tyler Boyd
Brandon LaFell
Alex Erickson
BenJarvus Green-Ellis
Giovani Bernard
Jeremy Hill
Cedric Benson
Brian Leonard
Bernard Scott
Cedric Peerman
Andrew Hawkins
Ryan Whalen
Jordan Shipley
Bo Scaife
Colin Cochart
Dan Herron
Dane Sanzenbacher
Orson Charles
Rex Burkhead
Greg Little
Alex Smith
Mario Alford

The next posts will have teams I think have had better weapons in that time frame

Sorry but this post is dumb and just plain old illogical, no offense seriously. But you basically just listed a bunch of guys that have never played for any other QB but Andy. Do you really think that if Andy was a top tier QB these guys would all be considered elite talent? Granted guys like Green are rare and have shown that if you throw the ball inside the field of play he has as good of shot as anyone to catch it...Dalton just hasn’t figured that out completely.

If we were known to bring in our skill position players via free agency we could compare what they’ve done elsewhere but in Cincinnati that happens very rarely. But looking at our WRs and recent drafts we’ve been adding talent from 1-3 rounds of the draft.

If you look across the league you can tell the good QBs elevate their WRs play and the great QBs can make any set of WRs look elite. Andy doesn’t do either and as far as talent goes Andy has some talented guys at Wr that we were all excited about when their names were called in the draft yet they cant really seem to get involved here...why is that?

Again, no disrespect but you can’t point to Dalton’s weapons as being the issue when he’s the one throwing them the ball. All we know is that the guys we have now were very productive at the collegiate level and are now seeing 1-2 balls thrown their way at most come Sunday. It’s difficult that spread the ball around and utilize all your talent when you are a one read QB who’s already thinking checkdown or throwaway 1 second after each snap.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-27-2017, 07:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This is the Bengals we're talking about. They aren't going on some free agency splurge regardless of who they cut. They had the money to keep a line in front of the current QB (who has proven good enough to win with) and they simply chose not to. The same thing happened with Palmer.

So what makes you think they'll suddenly decide to protect the next QB?

It's fun to talk about what you or I would do to fix the team, but we know damn well that the Bengals don't operate like other franchises...and that's why we keep having to dump good QBs and pretend they were the problem all along.

You're right in that past tendencies with this organization would say there is no hope for the Bengals to go outside FA to get a proven OL. The only position they've really ever done that in which I can remember during the ML era is Bobbie Williams.

What this organization has been blessed with are good 1st or high 2nd round picks that have manned the OT positions (nearly) this whole era.
Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Andrew Whitworth, Andre Smith. They haven't gone with horrendous OT play in a LONG time.
For C, they picked up Rich Braham when he was waived as a rookie and he solidified that position for nearly 12 years. After Braham, they rolled with Ghiachuc, 4th round pick. Then they followed in Braham's footsteps and picked up a waived rookie right before the season in Kyle Cook. The Bengals did have Jeff Faine at C for a year due to an injury to Cook IIRC. Then Bodine came along in 2014. Barring an injury, they've always gone with either a C they drafted or rookie scooped up off waivers.

So with Ogbuehi, Fisher, and Bodine all peforming poorly (yet again), this is all new territory for the Bengals. They've never had poor performances at all three of these positions. Perhaps they realize this and can't just sit back and wait for players to develop like they have in the past. But yes, what should be done vs what the Bengals will actually do are often two different things.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-27-2017, 07:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Tbh, I think this theoretical is all moot because it's assuming that Dalton has a terrible season.

Considering he had a 124 rating in game 1 with Lazor, I don't see Dalton having a bad season. Especially considering the line issues.

If that happens, I'd keep Dalton, fix the line and dump Marv and co. Of course that's not likely to happen either. Again...Bengals. I'd love to see Dalton with a good offensive-minded HC though.

Completely agree, doubt Dalton has a terrible season now with Lazor at the OC helm.

Hey, just saw MB acknowledging the coaching problems, yah never know.

Do you think Lazor could be a thought at HC if we end up getting really good on Offense as the year goes on Shake?

[*PhilHos*]

(09-27-2017, 07:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Tbh, I think this theoretical is all moot because it's assuming that Dalton has a terrible season.

Considering he had a 124 rating in game 1 with Lazor, I don't see Dalton having a bad season. Especially considering the line issues.

If that happens, I'd keep Dalton, fix the line and dump Marv and co. Of course that's not likely to happen either. Again...Bengals. I'd love to see Dalton with a good offensive-minded HC though.

To add to this post: last year's offensive line was ALSO really bad and Dalton ended up with arguably the 2nd best season of his career.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-28-2017, 02:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Completely agree, doubt Dalton has a terrible season now with Lazor at the OC helm.

Hey, just saw MB acknowledging the coaching problems, yah never know.

Do you think Lazor could be a thought at HC if we end up getting really good on Offense as the year goes on Shake?

Idk. I guess he'd be my preferred internal candidate.

I wouldn't mind keeping the defensive staff in place, promoting Lazor and letting him build his own offensive staff (dumping every other offensive coach).

Assuming Lazor really shows something. If not, there are always good external candidates.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-28-2017, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Idk. I guess he'd be my preferred internal candidate.

I wouldn't mind keeping the defensive staff in place, promoting Lazor and letting him build his own offensive staff (dumping every other offensive coach).

Assuming Lazor really shows something. If not, there are always good external candidates.

Guess i feel the same but i have always thought Urban was a good WR coach.

Still, getting rid of PA would make my year.

[muskiesfan]

(09-27-2017, 07:45 PM)Stonyhands Wrote: Sorry but this post is dumb and just plain old illogical, no offense seriously.  But you basically just listed a bunch of guys that have never played for any other QB but Andy.  Do you really think that if Andy was a top tier QB these guys would all be considered elite talent?  Granted guys like Green are rare and have shown that if you throw the ball inside the field of play he has as good of shot as anyone to catch it...Dalton just hasn’t figured that out completely.  

If we were known to bring in our skill position players via free agency we could compare what they’ve done elsewhere but in Cincinnati that happens very rarely.  But looking at our WRs and recent drafts we’ve been adding talent from 1-3 rounds of the draft.  

If you look across the league you can tell the good QBs elevate their WRs play and the great QBs can make any set of WRs look elite.  Andy doesn’t do either and as far as talent goes Andy has some talented guys at Wr that we were all excited about when their names were called in the draft yet they cant really seem to get involved here...why is that?  

Again, no disrespect but you can’t point to Dalton’s weapons as being the issue when he’s the one throwing them the ball.  All we know is that the guys we have now were very productive at the collegiate level and are now seeing 1-2 balls thrown their way at most come Sunday.  It’s difficult that spread the ball around and utilize all your talent when you are a one read QB who’s already thinking checkdown or throwaway 1 second after each snap.

Dalton has been provided 1 elite weapon (Green) and 1 that was borderline elite when healthy (Eifert). Other than that, he hasn't been surrounded by the kind of talent that Bengals fans claim he has.

I can point to Dalton's weapons because they're not nearly as good as people claim they are. Jerome Simpson had the best year of his career with Andy Dalton (50/725/4). He had a productive year in Minnesota in '13 (48/726/1), but his most targets, catches, touchdowns, and longest catch all came with Dalton. LaFell put up the second best stats of his career with Dalton last year (best year was with Brady). Gresham's best year was with Dalton. To try and spin it that Dalton is holding these guys back is laughable at best.

The real issue is the Bengals having the smallest scouting department in the NFL. That is limiting the ability to find talent in the draft. Also, every player the Bengals draft or sign, Hobson puts out a story on how they're already Canton bound. You can argue that people don't read his articles, but that's just a total lie. There are plenty of Bengals fans who read and believe every article he writes.

People need to appreciate the QB we have. No, he's not elite. He's above average and has elevated the play of his weapons. The only weapon that has elevated Dalton is Green.

The 2 things Bengals fans seem to not comprehend are that 1) every weapon given Dalton is not the greatest ever and 2) the front office hasn't made a real effort to surround him with the championship caliber weapons that fans believe he has. If this front office used free agency instead of worrying about comp picks and made the efforts that 31 other teams do to give their QBs as much as possible, we'd have probably won a playoff game now (even in spite of the owner/GM, head coach, and OLine coach).

Using this elite QB argument isn't valid either. Every team tries to get the best talent they can for their QBs. That's why they have huge scouting departments that aren't family and why they sign players in free agency.

[Stonyhands]

(09-28-2017, 05:37 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: Dalton has been provided 1 elite weapon (Green) and 1 that was borderline elite when healthy (Eifert). Other than that, he hasn't been surrounded by the kind of talent that Bengals fans claim he has.

I can point to Dalton's weapons because they're not nearly as good as people claim they are. Jerome Simpson had the best year of his career with Andy Dalton (50/725/4). He had a productive year in Minnesota in '13 (48/726/1), but his most targets, catches, touchdowns, and longest catch all came with Dalton. LaFell put up the second best stats of his career with Dalton last year (best year was with Brady). Gresham's best year was with Dalton. To try and spin it that Dalton is holding these guys back is laughable at best.

The real issue is the Bengals having the smallest scouting department in the NFL. That is limiting the ability to find talent in the draft. Also, every player the Bengals draft or sign, Hobson puts out a story on how they're already Canton bound. You can argue that people don't read his articles, but that's just a total lie. There are plenty of Bengals fans who read and believe every article he writes.

People need to appreciate the QB we have. No, he's not elite. He's above average and has elevated the play of his weapons. The only weapon that has elevated Dalton is Green.

The 2 things Bengals fans seem to not comprehend are that 1) every weapon given Dalton is not the greatest ever and 2) the front office hasn't made a real effort to surround him with the championship caliber weapons that fans believe he has. If this front office used free agency instead of worrying about comp picks and made the efforts that 31 other teams do to give their QBs as much as possible, we'd have probably won a playoff game now (even in spite of the owner/GM, head coach, and OLine coach).

Using this elite QB argument isn't valid either. Every team tries to get the best talent they can for their QBs. That's why they have huge scouting departments that aren't family and why they sign players in free agency.

Ok you must be ***** high. Most of our 1st round and 2nd rounds picks in Dalton’s time have been offense. The front office can’t help that Eifert can’t stay on the field. They also haven’t been picking in the top 10 every year so it’s a little difficult to get the elite Wr when others are picking in front of us. The first time in Andy’s career we have a top 10 pick they select a guy who could one day be elite if he could stay healthy. Seriously you must be high or stupid to think that just because every skill position surrounding Andy isn’t a pro bowler that the organization hasn’t truly put forth an effort to surround Andy with talent. Truth is that all th guys we have had very successful college careers and Andy can’t read a defensive backfield to know who to throw to.

Your argument is that Andy hasn’t succeeded due to not having enough talent around him...I say our talented personnel have not succeeded due to not having a QB who can get them the opportunities to succeed. Plus 2014 called and they want your lame excuse for Andy back. Don’t you know now that Zampese is gone we can go back to blaming the o-line.

[Brownshoe]

(09-29-2017, 04:18 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Ok you must be ***** high.  Most of our 1st round and 2nd rounds picks in Dalton’s time have been offense.  The front office can’t help that Eifert can’t stay on the field.  They also haven’t been picking in the top 10 every year so it’s a little difficult to get the elite Wr when others are picking in front of us.  The first time in Andy’s career we have a top 10 pick they select a guy who could one day be elite if he could stay healthy.  Seriously you must be high or stupid to think that just because every skill position surrounding Andy isn’t a pro bowler that the organization hasn’t truly put forth an effort to surround Andy with talent.  Truth is that all th guys we have had very successful college careers and Andy can’t read a defensive backfield to know who to throw to.  

Your argument is that Andy hasn’t succeeded due to not having enough talent around him...I say our talented personnel have not succeeded due to not having a QB who can get them the opportunities to succeed.  Plus 2014 called and they want your lame excuse for Andy back.  Don’t you know now that Zampese is gone  we can go back to blaming the o-line.

High draft picks doesn't mean that they're actually good. Why does almost every single receiver have their best year playing with Dalton? Jones, Sanu, Hawkins, Gresham, and Simpson all have had their best years with Dalton and not another QB. Hell, LaFell had his 2nd best year with Dalton and the other two QBs he's played with were Cam Newton and Tom Brady.

To say that high draft pick = talent is silly. Just look at our LT and RT right now. Both high draft picks, both horrible. Green has been Dalton's only big weapon, and since 2014 he's been getting hurt a decent amount. Eifert probably have had more games where he's injured than he's been healthy.

[Brownshoe]

(09-28-2017, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Idk. I guess he'd be my preferred internal candidate.

I wouldn't mind keeping the defensive staff in place, promoting Lazor and letting him build his own offensive staff (dumping every other offensive coach).

Assuming Lazor really shows something. If not, there are always good external candidates.

I wouldn't want Lazor as the HC unless he lights the world on fire with this offense. I would want another coach to come in. Hell, make Hue the OC when he gets fired from Cleveland. He's only had one win so far up there, so I wouldn't be surprised if they fired him if he has another season like last year.

[muskiesfan]

(09-29-2017, 04:18 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Ok you must be ***** high.  Most of our 1st round and 2nd rounds picks in Dalton’s time have been offense.  The front office can’t help that Eifert can’t stay on the field.  They also haven’t been picking in the top 10 every year so it’s a little difficult to get the elite Wr when others are picking in front of us.  The first time in Andy’s career we have a top 10 pick they select a guy who could one day be elite if he could stay healthy.  Seriously you must be high or stupid to think that just because every skill position surrounding Andy isn’t a pro bowler that the organization hasn’t truly put forth an effort to surround Andy with talent.  Truth is that all th guys we have had very successful college careers and Andy can’t read a defensive backfield to know who to throw to.  

Your argument is that Andy hasn’t succeeded due to not having enough talent around him...I say our talented personnel have not succeeded due to not having a QB who can get them the opportunities to succeed.  Plus 2014 called and they want your lame excuse for Andy back.  Don’t you know now that Zampese is gone  we can go back to blaming the o-line.

I have no idea why you want to call me names, but if it makes you feel better.

Also, I never said Dalton has had no talent. I also never said the team doesn't try to surround him with talent. I said that fans severely overvalue the talent the team has. Outside of Green, they have not surrounded Dalton with the "elite talent" fans say Dalton has EVERY YEAR. That's all we hear about is talent being wasted because of Dalton, but the talent isn't as great as everyone seems to think. That does fall on the front office. Our smallest-in-the-NFL scouting department isn't doing us any favors. An owner/GM that refuses to use free agency isn't doing us any favors either.

You keep trying to twist what I'm saying and I'm just not going to bite. Dalton is an above average QB who has elevated the play of almost all of his weapons. They have their best seasons or near their best seasons with Dalton. The fact still remains that the team does not surround Dalton with elite talent every season. Plenty of teams have had just as good if not better talent and that's the point of the thread. I've said it multiple times and I've replied with it to you multiple times.

If you want to believe our garbage OLine is not causing a problem, that's fine. If you want to blame Andy, that's fine. I honestly couldn't care less. The fact remains that fans need to gain more football knowledge, open their eyes, or something because they severely overvalue players. 

[*PhilHos*]

(09-29-2017, 04:18 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Ok you must be ***** high.  Most of our 1st round and 2nd rounds picks in Dalton’s time have been offense.  The front office can’t help that Eifert can’t stay on the field.  They also haven’t been picking in the top 10 every year so it’s a little difficult to get the elite Wr when others are picking in front of us.  

Interesting you say that for 2 reasons:
1) If we're not pickin gin the top 10 every year, that means we're winning more than we're losing. With Dalton at QB. 
2) At least one of your fellow Dalton haters has publicly stated that Dalton is only good when surrounded with elite talent. Here you're saying (correctly so) that he, indeed, has NOT been surrounded by elite talent. Thus, negating the argument that Dalton needs elite talent to have good stats.

(09-29-2017, 04:18 AM)Stonyhands Wrote:  Andy can’t read a defensive backfield to know who to throw to.  

Nope, not true. You don't have a career 62% completion % 22,000+ yards and almost twice as many TDs as INTs (1.7 TD to every 1 INT) if you don't know who to throw to.

(09-29-2017, 04:18 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: Your argument is that Andy hasn’t succeeded due to not having enough talent around him...

Except that's not his argument. He's sayinig Andy is a good QB as evident by not having elite talent surrounding him.

[bengalhoel]

(09-26-2017, 02:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I feel like most QB's are dependent on OL performance, but I get what you're saying.

Some QB's don't recover from beatings. Think David Carr. He could also rebound ala Palmer. It's hard telling at this point, but I know he sure could use a coach like Hue right now. Of course that's not happening. If Dalton is ruined, then we should get a new QB. That said, a new QB will be stuck with the same organizational problems and possibly much of the same coaching staff.

That's why I've been so frustrated lately. Well that and being out of the playoff hunt after 3 games.

Steelers lost to the Bears, Ravens got blown out by Jax....   We are not very good but this division isnt either. It isnt over yet

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-29-2017, 12:39 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Steelers lost to the Bears, Ravens got blown out by Jax....   We are not very good but this division isnt either. It isnt over yet

Yeah, good point. With this Division a win Sunday and we are in the thick of it lol