Tale of Two Andy's

[*PhilHos*]

(10-04-2017, 07:29 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Andy had 1 good HALF against the Packers (sorry, but leading the team to 1 field goal and 2 fg tries in the 2nd half is pitiful given the talent around him) and a big game against the Browns who are the worst team in the league by miles. I'll reserve judgment until after the Bills and Steelers.

Reserve judgment for what? Dalton's career speaks for itself: He's a good QB who sometimes has a really bad game.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2017, 10:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Reserve judgment for what? Dalton's career speaks for itself: He's a good QB who sometimes has a really bad game.

Which is no different than any QB in the league. They all have stinkers. Every year.

Heck, Roethlisberger had 7 poor games last year. 

[*PhilHos*]

(10-04-2017, 12:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Which is no different than any QB in the league. They all have stinkers. Every year.

Heck, Roethlisberger had 7 poor games last year. 

Yes, but Roethlisberger has won a Super Bowl or two. Clearly, this makes the standards for him lower ... somehow.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2017, 12:44 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but Roethlisberger has won a Super Bowl or two. Clearly, this makes the standards for him lower ... somehow.

It's just a way for people to ignore the actual point.  :cool:

Seriously though, try it with any QB. Maybe some non-champions like Luck, Newton, Stafford, Carr or Palmer. They all shit the bed at least a couple times every year. Honestly I think it just boils down to certain teams and schemes just match up better against certain QBs. So many things factor into QB play that it's inevitable that even the best will be made to look bad from time to time.

For Ben, it seems his kryptonite is playing on the road.

[Deanlj69]

(10-04-2017, 12:48 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: As of now, Marv's career can be summed up as Mr Regular Season.

Is Dalton really the only player over the last 15 years that needs an "excuse" for his poor play in the playoffs (or prime-time)?

I’m sorry. I thought we were specifically discussing Andy Dalton.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2017, 02:15 PM)Deanlj69 Wrote: I’m sorry. I thought we were specifically discussing Andy Dalton.

I'm sorry. I thought the head coach's lengthy history of epic failure getting his players to perform in the lights would be relevant to a discussion about his QB's failure to perform in the lights.

Guess not in your view. Hmm.

[Deanlj69]

(10-04-2017, 04:19 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm sorry. I thought the head coach's lengthy history of epic failure getting his players to perform in the lights would be relevant to a discussion about his QB's failure to perform in the lights.

Guess not in your view. Hmm.

It is relevant with play calling, motivation, basic strategy and adjustments but not relevant for over thrown and under thrown passes failure to read the D and not spotting the pass rush.

Marvin has been dismal and we all know this but Andy has choked. Go watch the games again. His play can’t be blamed entirely or even mostly on bad coaching. And please don’t ever mention him in the same breath as Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger etc. he has not come close to earning that right. The fact is we are talking about a mid tier qb who at times flashes something more. Need we forget about great seasons from quarterbacks such as Brian Sipe, Don Majkowski, Derek Anderson, Tommy Maddox. I can obviously name many more. Andy is who he is. If we had the 85 bears D, the steel curtain D, Ravens D from Dilfer and Flacco bowls then yeah Andy’s play might not be as relevant but unfortunately this team is built where the quarterback needs to elevate the team and that’s due to bad personnel choices, bad coaching and bad cap management.

I’m done with this but hopefully Andy proves me wrong but I think they need to move on from him and the coaching staff

[muskiesfan]

(10-04-2017, 12:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's just a way for people to ignore the actual point. 

Seriously though, try it with any QB. Maybe some non-champions like Luck, Newton, Stafford, Carr or Palmer. They all shit the bed at least a couple times every year. Honestly I think it just boils down to certain teams and schemes just match up better against certain QBs. So many things factor into QB play that it's inevitable that even the best will be made to look bad from time to time.

For Ben, it seems his kryptonite is playing on the road.

Using the metrics we've used before of games with a passer rating of 100 or better or a passer rating below 60, here are the numbers.

Andy Dalton: 38 games with a passer rating 100+, 11 games with a passer rating below 60
Andrew Luck: 18 games 100+, 8 below 60
Cam Newton: 32 games 100+, 14 below 60
Carson Palmer: 33 games 100+, 6 below 60
Derek Carr: 16 games 100+, 3 below 60

I was actually impressed finding out how few of games Palmer was below 60.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-03-2017, 04:45 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: I think perhaps the most brought up topic when it comes to discussing sunday's with people I know is Dalton. Sure, the man who touches the ball the most, will receive the most eyes. That being said, arm chair QBing is at an all time high. Even after defending the man with the usual, our offensive line is trash and Ken Zampese couldn't call an effective Madden online game...I finally gave up. Now, I guess we are 'seeing' a 'resurgence'...even still...here are some stats I've compiled...they're interesting.

(All 2017 games)


Under Zampese:

Att/Comp: 36/66
Yards: 394
TD: 0
INT: 4
AVG Comp: 5.4
QB Rating: 52.4
Time Sacked: 8
Avg Pass D Rank: 12.5


Under Lazor:

Att/Comp: 46/57
Yard: 498
TD: 6
INT: 0
AVG Comp: 8.69
QB Rating: 135.05
Time Sacked: 6
Avg Pass D Rank: 14



Defenses are about the same. Quite obvious that Lazor knows how to use Andy (less throws). I'm sure you could delve deeper, but even surface stats these last two games are high quality caliber QB stats.

Great thread and thanks for those stats Caped Crusader. Dalton also looks to have much more confidence under Lazor
for whatever reason. Probably the one thing that i have never liked much about Dalton is the way he panics at times
even when the play has not completely broken down. Needs to step up in the pocket (if there is one) pass the ball and
take the hit. Hard to do i know but that is what the best do.

I am a Dalton backer as well and think he gets way too much flack considering the OL play and his weapons being hurt
all the time and no running game to be spoken of to take pressure off of him. Still think this guy can be elite if he had
some time to throw the ball. Extremely accurate at times with one of the quickest releases in football and is the best
Post route QB in the NFL. Stats back this up haters.

[PDub80]

(10-04-2017, 10:43 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Reserve judgment for what? Dalton's career speaks for itself: He's a good QB who sometimes has a really bad game.

(10-04-2017, 12:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Which is no different than any QB in the league. They all have stinkers. Every year.

Heck, Roethlisberger had 7 poor games last year. 

(10-04-2017, 12:44 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, but Roethlisberger has won a Super Bowl or two. Clearly, this makes the standards for him lower ... somehow.

(10-04-2017, 12:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's just a way for people to ignore the actual point. 

Seriously though, try it with any QB. Maybe some non-champions like Luck, Newton, Stafford, Carr or Palmer. They all shit the bed at least a couple times every year. Honestly I think it just boils down to certain teams and schemes just match up better against certain QBs. So many things factor into QB play that it's inevitable that even the best will be made to look bad from time to time.

For Ben, it seems his kryptonite is playing on the road.

Do you guys want me to go dig up my QB floor theory thread where I compare Andy Dalton over multiple years to many QBs and illustrate through Passer Rating that Andy Dalton has bad games more often than anyone in the NFL and that those bad games are actually considerably worse than the other QBs in the league?

I'm happy to revisit that and post a link. There are many years worth of statistical data showing that Andy is bad more often than any other QB and that his bad games are worse than any other QB. The history is so long that Andy Dalton is what he is in that area. He's the poster child for inconsistency and wild swings in performance, which is why he's so polarizing.

[PDub80]

(10-04-2017, 07:19 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great thread and thanks for those stats Caped Crusader. Dalton also looks to have much more confidence under Lazor
for whatever reason. Probably the one thing that i have never liked much about Dalton is the way he panics at times
even when the play has not completely broken down. Needs to step up in the pocket (if there is one) pass the ball and
take the hit. Hard to do i know but that is what the best do.

I am a Dalton backer as well and think he gets way too much flack considering the OL play and his weapons being hurt
all the time and no running game to be spoken of to take pressure off of him. Still think this guy can be elite if he had
some time to throw the ball. Extremely accurate at times with one of the quickest releases in football and is the best
Post route QB in the NFL. Stats back this up haters.

He played the worst team, by far, in the league and that gave him a monster boost in stats.

It's like in college if he were in the SEC and the first 3 games he played actual SEC schools and then in the 4th game played the University of Charlotte and tore them up. Nobody in their right mind would be pointing at that one anomaly and say "See, he's a monster!"

Andy needs to put together several games, like 3 or 4 or 5 of good to excellent performances. Not 1 and a half.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2017, 06:43 PM)Deanlj69 Wrote: It is relevant with play calling, motivation, basic strategy and adjustments but not relevant for over thrown and under thrown passes failure to read the D and not spotting the pass rush.

Marvin has been dismal and we all know this but Andy has choked. Go watch the games again. His play can’t be blamed entirely or even mostly on bad coaching. And please don’t ever mention him in the same breath as Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger etc. he has not come close to earning that right. The fact is we are talking about a mid tier qb who at times flashes something more. Need we forget about great seasons from quarterbacks such as Brian Sipe, Don Majkowski, Derek Anderson, Tommy Maddox. I can obviously name many more. Andy is who he is. If we had the 85 bears D, the steel curtain D, Ravens D from Dilfer and Flacco bowls then yeah Andy’s play might not be as relevant but unfortunately this team is built where the quarterback needs to elevate the team and that’s due to bad personnel choices, bad coaching and bad cap management.

I’m done with this but hopefully Andy proves me wrong but I think they need to move on from him and the coaching staff

Marvin didn't make guys fumble, disappear or get burned either. It's like magic. Very predictable and depressing magic.

(10-04-2017, 08:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Do you guys want me to go dig up my QB floor theory thread where I compare Andy Dalton over multiple years to many QBs and illustrate through Passer Rating that Andy Dalton has bad games more often than anyone in the NFL and that those bad games are actually considerably worse than the other QBs in the league?

I'm happy to revisit that and post a link. There are many years worth of statistical data showing that Andy is bad more often than any other QB and that his bad games are worse than any other QB. The history is so long that Andy Dalton is what he is in that area. He's the poster child for inconsistency and wild swings in performance, which is why he's so polarizing.

Knock yourself out.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-04-2017, 08:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: He played the worst team, by far, in the league and that gave him a monster boost in stats.

It's like in college if he were in the SEC and the first 3 games he played actual SEC schools and then in the 4th game played the University of Charlotte and tore them up. Nobody in their right mind would be pointing at that one anomaly and say "See, he's a monster!"

Andy needs to put together several games, like 3 or 4 or 5 of good to excellent performances. Not 1 and a half.

The Browns are most definately the worst franchise in the NFL but to act like they don't have very talented players is
utterly ridiculous. They get the top picks in the draft nearly every year. To compare this team to the suckiest college
teams is also just nutz. People on here were talking about them being better than us this year, lots of people.

We beat their ass and Dalton was like 16 for 18 at one point.

To not recognize he had a great game and to just ignore it cause it is the Browns is stupid.

We will have a much better gauge this week but the Browns are still an NFL football team with talented players and
Dalton played them better than any other QB has this year, better than the Pig in Pitt.

[muskiesfan]

What all criteria is everyone using to decide how horrible Andy is? I've shown games of passer rating 100 or better and below 60. Dalton has 38 and 11 respectively in his 97 game career. Cam Newton was drafted the same year and has also played 97 games. Cam has 32 and 14 respectively.

I think everyone would agree that a passer rating of 90 or better is a good game. So just counting games with a passer rating of 90 or better over their 97 game careers, Cam has had 40 games with a passer rating of 90 or better which equates to 41.2%. Dalton has has 47 games with a passer rating of 90 or better which equates to 48.5%. That's not saying Dalton is better than Cam or vice versa. The two are actually very similar in a lot of areas. Cam has thrown 141 TDs and 83 INT, Dalton has thrown 148 TDs and 85 INT. Dalton averages 7.3 yards per attempt for his career, Cam averages 7.5. Cam's fumbled 41 times, Dalton 35. They're both 3 time Pro Bowlers.

Don't get me wrong, Cam brings a lot more to the table rushing than Dalton. No comparison there. My point is that we've got a good QB. Better than a lot of his own fans give him credit for. Also, we've gotten incredible value out of our 35th pick in the 2011 draft.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2017, 08:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Do you guys want me to go dig up my QB floor theory thread where I compare Andy Dalton over multiple years to many QBs and illustrate through Passer Rating that Andy Dalton has bad games more often than anyone in the NFL and that those bad games are actually considerably worse than the other QBs in the league?

I'm happy to revisit that and post a link. There are many years worth of statistical data showing that Andy is bad more often than any other QB and that his bad games are worse than any other QB. The history is so long that Andy Dalton is what he is in that area. He's the poster child for inconsistency and wild swings in performance, which is why he's so polarizing.

Nevermind. I went ahead and made my own thread. Not knocking yours, but I feel mine is more comprehensive and accurate.

It uses percentages based on each QB's entire career, rather than 2 seasons. Your thread was almost 3 years old and used the 2013 and 2014 seasons, so it needed a major update anyway. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-04-2017, 08:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: He played the worst team, by far, in the league and that gave him a monster boost in stats.

It's like in college if he were in the SEC and the first 3 games he played actual SEC schools and then in the 4th game played the University of Charlotte and tore them up. Nobody in their right mind would be pointing at that one anomaly and say "See, he's a monster!"

Andy needs to put together several games, like 3 or 4 or 5 of good to excellent performances. Not 1 and a half.

.....and yet, no one else in the league thumped their ass like we did.  In fact, 2 of their first 3 games were within a FG, including the infallible Stoolers.  Yes, they are the worst in the league, yes other teams struggled with them, yes, we curb stomped their ass.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-05-2017, 11:31 AM)Wyche Wrote: .....and yet, no one else in the league thumped their ass like we did.  In fact, 2 of their first 3 games were within a FG, including the infallible Stoolers.  Yes, they are the worst in the league, yes other teams struggled with them, yes, we curb stomped their ass.

Damn rights Wyche.

Saying, ah it was just the Browns is just a stupid thing to say.

We beat their ass and our HC made our OC take our foot off the gas and still curb stomped them.

[bengalguy71]

Interesting how many point to Andy's poor play when being chased all over the backfield.

Is there ANY QB, outside of Rodgers, who performs well in that scenario?

When's the last time you've seen Brady 'on the run' every other pass play?

[*PhilHos*]

(10-12-2017, 12:02 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Interesting how many point to Andy's poor play when being chased all over the backfield.

Is there ANY QB, outside of Rodgers, who performs well in that scenario?

Roethlisberger USED to, but your point is valid. 

The keys to beating teams with Brady and Peyton was always to get pressure on them. Why? Because that's when they were more prone to mistakes. Amazing, isn't it? Pressuring a QB makes that QB more prone to mistakes! Whoda thunk it? 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-12-2017, 12:02 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Interesting how many point to Andy's poor play when being chased all over the backfield.

Is there ANY QB, outside of Rodgers, who performs well in that scenario?

When's the last time you've seen Brady 'on the run' every other pass play?

Some just treat him different than any other QB in a bad way.

Everything cannot be put at Dalton's feet.

The last two games he has played better than any QB in the league from what i am seeing.

(10-12-2017, 12:08 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Roethlisberger USED to, but your point is valid. 

The keys to beating teams with Brady and Peyton was always to get pressure on them. Why? Because that's when they were more prone to mistakes. Amazing, isn't it? Pressuring a QB makes that QB more prone to mistakes! Whoda thunk it? 

Yep, those are HOF's but you put pressure on them and they can lose.

We beat both of those guys with getting pressure on them.

For Dalton not to get a bit of a pass for playing poorly under terrible pressure shows the poster's thoughts.

Dalton can never do right.