Yes, our OL is that bad - It's not your imagination

[*bfine32*]

I did some research using Football Outsiders:

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol

Some takeaways:

We are 13th in stuff (aka our RB getting stopped behind LOS). That is quite good

Our worst ranking is 26th in Open Field (aka RB making some miss). That is quite poor

We are 17th running behind Bodine. That is fair

We are 31st running off the right end. Perhaps an inline TE is needed.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-15-2017, 11:09 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Boling overall this year grades out at 75.3 which is considered Average.

I'm pretty sure that 50 is considered Poor.

Sorry, the way he worded it had me thinking Boling was just over 50.

(10-15-2017, 11:13 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: That's the PFF grade style though. It's impacting him as far as double teams and stunts aren't being picked up as smoothly. 
And it impacts his pulling when the C/RG/RT aren't making the right blocks (or any blocks) when he's pulling around. 

He's been playing at his same high level for the most part. 
PFF is almost all results based. 
Process matters too. 

I figured as much. It has to make it harder to do your job when you have 2 of the worst linemen in the league on either side of you.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(10-15-2017, 12:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sorry, the way he worded it had me thinking Boling was just over 50.


I figured as much. It has to make it harder to do your job when you have 2 of the worst linemen in the league on either side of you.

When judging OL, I prefer a process based approach rather than results because not all results can be replicated, but a good process can be. 

Clint still has good footwork and and hand usage. He's still very good in space. 

Usually there's a lot of crossover but with PFF you see a guy get dinged for a lot of things that likely aren't his fault or out of his control. 

[Circleville Guy]

I know very little about NFL trade rules and if there are deadlines or not. Couldn't the Bengals trade with a team that's out of it already? Trade some draft pics for some legitimate OL. This division isn't that good and is winnable, the ownership needs to be motivated to win. Again, I don't even know if in season trades are allowed, I'm more of an MLB guy.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(10-15-2017, 01:03 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I know very little about NFL trade rules and if there are deadlines or not. Couldn't the Bengals trade with a team that's out of it already? Trade some draft pics for some legitimate OL. This division isn't that good and is winnable, the ownership needs to be motivated to win. Again, I don't even know if in season trades are allowed, I'm more of an MLB guy.

They could, but it would be such a non-Bengals move they never would.

Plus you'd have to be EXTRA certain at this point the added OL would fit the scheme you want to run. And that's part of the problem, we have no identity so what OL that could be available is worth the draft capital and a lock to fit the puzzle...

[kevin]

(10-14-2017, 03:49 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Ran across this article today and it confirms that our OL just plain sucks.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/10/13/16462840/pff-ranks-all-32-nfl-offensive-lines-bengals-30th

Here are some interesting quotes:



Russell Bodine 43.3, 28th ranked Center

Jake Fisher 42.6, 58th ranked Tackle
Cedric Ogbuehi 40.6, 60th ranked Tackle

In 2012 our O Line was a Disaster Area at start of season. We had lost our starting left guard and starting center and even our back-up center.  Bengals lost 4 games in a row and found themselves at 3-5.   The fans quit.  Luckily the 2012 Bengals used the most important words in football from pee wee to high school to college to Pros....the words, " NO QUIT ".....the most important words in football. .....So with starting O Linemen out for the season, the coaches put a patch on the old tire and little by little it got better and Bengals finished 7-1 the second half and made play-offs. 

Yes, 2017 Bengals and Seattle started as 2 worst O Lines in NFL.  We see us shut out in game one with Baltimore Defense.  We see 3 field goals and no touchdowns against Houston defense.  But then we see going into overtime against a tough Packers team of Aaron Rodgers.  Then we see wins over the Browns and then a tough Bills team.  If you were to graph this the graph line would start at the bottom but be constantly rising each week.  This is another Bengals O Line that might get better each week as in 2012.   Again they need to clutch to the most important words in football from pee wee to Pros, " NO QUIT ". 

[Pat5775]

(10-15-2017, 11:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What does that say about the team that some fans wish that a guy gets injured and can't play to force the team to upgrade a weak position?

Shouldn't management WANT to improve the team???

The sad thing is: I think they truly believe the status quo is always the best option. The staff is, in fact, that delusional. They'll stubbornly make changes only after the damage is done. I swear, it's like they don't make changes just to spite us

 

[HarleyDog]

(10-15-2017, 02:57 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: The sad thing is: I think they truly believe the status quo is always the best option. The staff is, in fact, that delusional. They'll stubbornly make changes only after the damage is done. I swear, it's like they don't make changes just to spite us

 

Maybe they should stop thinking of the fans as "noise!" And the media and everyone else. LOL. How the heck do you miss the whole world telling you that your heading for disaster and miss it? That's not noise, that's stupidity. Specially when you've done it you're way with a constant failure rate. Good Lord!

[Circleville Guy]

(10-15-2017, 01:16 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: They could, but it would be such a non-Bengals move they never would.

Plus you'd have to be EXTRA certain at this point the added OL would fit the scheme you want to run. And that's part of the problem, we have no identity so what OL that could be available is worth the draft capital and a lock to fit the puzzle...

Thanks for that answer. I think that considering the weak division, money under the cap and just how low our guys rate that it would be the right move. You're very right on Mike Brown though!

[Pat5775]

(10-15-2017, 03:14 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Maybe they should stop thinking of the fans as "noise!" And the media and everyone else. LOL. How the heck do you miss the whole world telling you that your heading for disaster and miss it? That's not noise, that's stupidity. Specially when you've done it you're way with a constant failure rate. Good Lord!

Marv has a shit ton of flaws, but I'd say his biggest downfall is his stubbornness. I still can't believe Marv shot down Guenther when he wanted to make some much needed changes last year. I can't believe he stuck with Nugent for so long either. Same with Brad St. Louis. And who else but Marv would merrily skip like a hopscotch-ing school girl into the season with THIS offensive line?? (Paul Alexander, that's who   ). 

We have some delusional minds on this staff. And once again, we fans get to say "I told ya so"! 

[Beaker]

(10-15-2017, 02:57 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: The sad thing is: I think they truly believe the status quo is always the best option. The staff is, in fact, that delusional. They'll stubbornly make changes only after the damage is done. I swear, it's like they don't make changes just to spite us 

First, they should not make changes to appease the fans. The fans are fickle idiots with zero patience and no knowledge of what plays out in practice to influence the coaching decisions. Second, the Bengals have gone against the status quo this season by playing all the young guys that have gotten significant snaps this season. And with that have made other non-status quo moves like moving Michael Johnson inside to DT, and rotating the OTs. 

[TheUberHuber]

(10-15-2017, 10:56 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I know the narrative is oline, oline, oline, but sometimes your playmakers have to make plays. When Ty Montgomery was the lead back in GB he averaged 3.3 YPC, he goes down and Aaron Jones is averaging 5.4 YPC. Did their oline get that much better?

Right now Gio Bernard is averaging 4.6 YPC behind the same oline that Mixon is averaging 2.8 YPC. So do they block better for Gio? You know a big reason a RB might get hit often behind the LOS? He spends too much time there.

In their most recent game they gave up 1 sack to a Bills team that has 12 on the year. I fully realize that Andy get sacked because of oline and Andy doesn't get sacked because of Andy.

This is not to say the oline is performing well, they are not, but as I mentioned earlier I don't know how much stock I put in a ranking that has CLV and GB olines top 10 and has NYG above anyone. I also grow tired over every other thread being about the poor oline and the few threads that are not about the oline become...."but the oline". To make an omelette you have to break a few eggs, we are currently in the egg breaking stage in 3 of our 5 Oline positions. The constants are Boling and Bodine and they were a fine combination against the run last year.

So maybe, just maybe we can talk about something else every now and then. Hell, Marvin thinks there are too many "oline sucks" threads

Gio is a different kind of back than mixon and hill. I know this is obvious, so not sure how you missed that one. 

Also, the lack of sacks vs the bills were do to Andy getting rid of the ball a lot quicker and had a competant coach calling plays. Again, this is pretty obvious. 

Even on the long pass to green Andy got the ball out quick. He was definitely not hanging out in the pocket all game lime he was in the beginning of the season. If he was he would have been sacked more. But I will say the line did look a little better, but still looked pretty terrible. 

Also, I like when people post stats that I am too lazy to look up. This is a PUBLIC forum and not a whatever bfine thinks should be posted forum..

[Pat5775]

(10-15-2017, 04:25 PM)Beaker Wrote: First, they should not make changes to appease the fans. The fans are fickle idiots with zero patience and no knowledge of what plays out in practice to influence the coaching decisions. Second, the Bengals have gone against the status quo this season by playing all the young guys that have gotten significant snaps this season. And with that have made other non-status quo moves like moving Michael Johnson inside to DT, and rotating the OTs. 

I'm not saying they should make changes to appease the fans. I'm saying they should make changes because changes need to be made. 

If "fickle idiots with zero patience and no knowledge" are constantly proven right when the necessary changes are finally made, then who are the idiots? Who cares what happens in practice when the crap you see on gameday is obviously killing the team?

 I'm not saying I'm the brightest football mind there is but when an average joe like me and countless others here correctly assumed this offensive line would be atrocious (just for one example), then there is a serious problem here. This coaching staff is not full of geniuses that know better than us.

They only made the moves you mentioned after they couldn't deny there were problems with the OL. An intelligent coaching staff would have started the season with the rotations to mask the deficiencies. 

[BengalsRocker]

(10-14-2017, 10:10 PM)bonesaw Wrote: relax guys.  I signed them all up for some MMA training with Jay Glazier during the bye week.  Everything is gonna be cool from here on out

I was hoping we'd have them working with a curling team.













That way they could learn how to use a scrubber to clean up the trash they just left on the field.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-15-2017, 04:25 PM)Beaker Wrote: First, they should not make changes to appease the fans. The fans are fickle idiots with zero patience and no knowledge of what plays out in practice to influence the coaching decisions. Second, the Bengals have gone against the status quo this season by playing all the young guys that have gotten significant snaps this season. And with that have made other non-status quo moves like moving Michael Johnson inside to DT, and rotating the OTs. 

Yeah zero patience. Like expecting a team to win a single playoff game in 26 years...in a league where most teams have won 5+ over that span and some 23 different teams have appeared in a Super Bowl.

Then we beat Cleveland and Buffalo and the homers are talking Super Bowl.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-15-2017, 04:39 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: I'm not saying they should make changes to appease the fans. I'm saying they should make changes because changes need to be made. 

If "fickle idiots with zero patience and no knowledge" are constantly proven right when the necessary changes are finally made, then who are the idiots? Who cares what happens in practice when the crap you see on gameday is obviously killing the team?

 I'm not saying I'm the brightest football mind there is but when an average joe like me and countless others here correctly assumed this offensive line would be atrocious (just for one example), then there is a serious problem here. This coaching staff is not full of geniuses that know better than us.

They only made the moves you mentioned after they couldn't deny there were problems with the OL. An intelligent coaching staff would have started the season with the rotations to mask the deficiencies. 

Dude...this team could go 0-16 for 10 years straight and there would be fans on here talking about how the Bengals model of drafting and letting higher priced guys walk for Comp picks and not signing free agents being the best approach.

Some people just will never admit that other teams invest more resources into winning than the Bengals. It's called an ego investment.

[Beaker]

(10-15-2017, 05:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah zero patience. Like expecting a team to win a single playoff game in 26 years.

Do you really think there's anyone happy with the playoff record? I'm talking about the knee jerk reactions that are all too common with fans and then are proven wrong. 

[Pat5775]

(10-15-2017, 06:23 PM)Beaker Wrote: Do you really think there's anyone happy with the playoff record? I'm talking about the knee jerk reactions that are all too common with fans and then are proven wrong. 

Specifically what knee-jerk reactions were the vast majority of fans wrong about? 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-15-2017, 02:57 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: The sad thing is: I think they truly believe the status quo is always the best option. The staff is, in fact, that delusional. They'll stubbornly make changes only after the damage is done. I swear, it's like they don't make changes just to spite us

 

They've shown time and time again that they're not going to change their strategy and hire a GM and start spending in free agency. They haven't added a significant amount of scouts. After going 0-7 in the playoffs Marvin was retained.

This is what the 3rd or 4th Cycle of having bad Centers and not replacing them until a guys contract was up?

[THE PISTONS]

(10-15-2017, 06:29 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Specifically what knee-jerk reactions were the vast majority of fans wrong about? 

Yes - What knee-jerk reactions are the vast majority of fans wrong about? Enlighten us.