Bengals working out TE's

[*ochocincos*]

(10-18-2017, 04:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: And a lot of people care about pass catching tight ends because of wide receivers not named AJ Green that cannot seem to get separation..... and it's nice to have more than one reliable target for a QB to throw to.....

That's true, but it doesn't have to be a TE. In fact, there have been quite a few teams going to Super Bowls recently whose TE is the third receiving option at best.

Denver won a Super Bowl with their top TE (Owen Daniels) only getting 517 yards and 3 TDs. Demaryius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders were the top two receiving threats in that offense.
Atlanta made it to the Super Bowl last year with their top TE (Austin Hooper) only getting 271 yards and 3 TDs. He was the fourth/fifth option.
Seahawks made two Super Bowls (won one) with Zach Miller and Luke Willson having no more than 387 yards and a handful of TDs when they were the top TEs and being the third option at best.
What's the common theme to all of these? Two good WRs and the running game.

Point being you don't need an elite receiving TE to make or win the Super Bowl. It depends on scheme. Plenty of teams still succeed with a TE that isn't an elite pass catcher. Given the Bengals having had bad luck with finding one of those that can also block and stay healthy, it wouldn't be a bad idea for them to go back to the TE being a fourth or fifth option while focusing on two WR and running back.

[sandwedge]

(10-18-2017, 04:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: That's true, but it doesn't have to be a TE. In fact, there have been quite a few teams going to Super Bowls recently whose TE is the third receiving option at best.

Denver won a Super Bowl with their top TE (Owen Daniels) only getting 517 yards and 3 TDs. Demaryius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders were the top two receiving threats in that offense.
Atlanta made it to the Super Bowl last year with their top TE (Austin Hooper) only getting 271 yards and 3 TDs. He was the fourth/fifth option.
Seahawks made two Super Bowls (won one) with Zach Miller and Luke Willson having no more than 387 yards and a handful of TDs when they were the top TEs and being the third option at best.
What's the common theme to all of these? Two good WRs and the running game.

Point being you don't need an elite receiving TE to make or win the Super Bowl. It depends on scheme. Plenty of teams still succeed with a TE that isn't an elite pass catcher. Given the Bengals having had bad luck with finding one of those that can also block and stay healthy, it wouldn't be a bad idea for them to go back to the TE being a fourth or fifth option while focusing on two WR and running back.

And I think you might find that to be the case with Eifert gone again. I think you just gotta look at the TE a few times during the game to keep defenses honest.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-18-2017, 04:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I never stated other fans are "basically idiots that can't see past fantasy football" at all. I stated that most people care more about pass catching TEs because of fantasy football. There's a difference there. You made the assumption. In fact, I'd put myself in the category of caring much more about receiving stats over blocking for TEs around the league because of fantasy football. I couldn't tell you who the top 5 blocking TEs are in the NFL or exactly how good or bad of a blocker some of the big-name TEs are.

Besides, many fans have increased their interest in football because of fantasy football, and fantasy football has grown in popularity over the past 10-20 years. Especially when caring about other teams outside their favorite team and/or knowing many other players around the league. And in fantasy football, TEs are listed as being good based on their receiving stats, nothing about their blocking ability. So it's only natural that those people who are getting to know other players around the league outside of their own team and doing that through fantasy football put a focus on those TEs who get receiving stats.

I know a lot of people that if I say "who are the best TEs in the league" would say Gronk, Olsen, Graham, Reed, and Kelce. Why? Because they get the highlights and receiving stats.
Ask people who the top five blocking TEs are and I guarantee you most wouldn't be able to tell you.
Now, that doesn't make them "basically idiots" for not knowing, just that receiving ability has a much higher visibility over blocking unless fans are really willing to do the research.

Well whatever your intent, I still stand by the rest of that post:

Quote:It has nothing to do with fantasy and more to do with the fact that blocking-only TE's are archaic. It's a passing league now, and guys like Reggie Kelly starting and getting most of the snaps just doesn't happen much anymore. Guys need to be able to catch. There's a reason pass catching TE's get paid the big bucks while the best blocking TE's bounce around the league like ping pong balls on minimum contracts.

That's not to say it's ok to be a walking turnstile as long as you can catch, but an average blocking TE that can put up 800 yards is always going to be more valuable than a great blocker that brings little to nothing as a receiver.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-18-2017, 05:40 PM)sandwedge Wrote: And I think you might find that to be the case with Eifert gone again. I think you just gotta look at the TE a few times during the game to keep defenses honest.

Agreed, TE needs to be thrown to periodically, but it doesn't have to be a focal of the offense. Kroft, Uzomah, Hewitt, or some mid-round draft pick can accomplish what you proposed.

[depthchart]

(10-19-2017, 09:20 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Agreed, TE needs to be thrown to periodically, but it doesn't have to be a focal of the offense. Kroft, Uzomah, Hewitt, or some mid-round draft pick can accomplish what you proposed.

Eifert's best season was in 2015 with 52 catches for 615 yards. Only a focal point in Key situations.

His greatest value came in the Red Zone with 13 touchdowns in 2015 and he likely had a good value on 3rd downs as I remember.

Eifert moving the chains and scoring Touchdowns was quite valuable plus his threat to Defenses down the seams and in the middle of the field to keep them honest.

Hoping Kroft can stay healthy and start to assume Eifert's production levels of 2015.

Durability seems to be our biggest problem at the Tight End position and I would bring in another young one next Draft in the 3rd or 4th round talent level range at a minimum with an emphasis on Red Zone presence. Being a mismatch on contested balls in the Red Zone & Key 3rd down situations.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-19-2017, 11:17 AM)depthchart Wrote: Eifert's best season was in 2015 with 52 catches for 615 yards. Only a focal point in Key situations.

His greatest value came in the Red Zone with 13 touchdowns in 2015 and he likely had a good value on 3rd downs as I remember.

Eifert moving the chains and scoring Touchdowns was quite valuable plus his threat to Defenses down the seams and in the middle of the field to keep them honest.

Hoping Kroft can stay healthy and start to assume Eifert's production levels of 2015.

Durability seems to be our biggest problem at the Tight End position and I would bring in another young one next Draft in the 3rd or 4th round talent level range at a minimum with an emphasis on Red Zone presence. Being a mismatch on contested balls in the Red Zone & Key 3rd down situations.

10+ receiving TDs from an individual contributor will likely be hard to match if your name isn't AJ Green. But if Kroft can get somewhere in the realm of 450+ yards and 6 TDs, I'd consider that successful (assuming the running game and some other WRs step up as expected).

[sandwedge]

(10-19-2017, 11:17 AM)depthchart Wrote: Eifert's best season was in 2015 with 52 catches for 615 yards. Only a focal point in Key situations.

His greatest value came in the Red Zone with 13 touchdowns in 2015 and he likely had a good value on 3rd downs as I remember.

Eifert moving the chains and scoring Touchdowns was quite valuable plus his threat to Defenses down the seams and in the middle of the field to keep them honest.

Hoping Kroft can stay healthy and start to assume Eifert's production levels of 2015.

Durability seems to be our biggest problem at the Tight End position and I would bring in another young one next Draft in the 3rd or 4th round talent level range at a minimum with an emphasis on Red Zone presence. Being a mismatch on contested balls in the Red Zone & Key 3rd down situations.

If we were to draft another TE next year, would you want a traditional TE or a WR type TE? Honestly I think Kroft is a combination of the 2. The year before he was drafted,
Kroft put up pretty good #s receiving and now has learned to block. 

[depthchart]

(10-19-2017, 11:29 AM)ochocincos Wrote: 10+ receiving TDs from an individual contributor will likely be hard to match if your name isn't AJ Green. But if Kroft can get somewhere in the realm of 450+ yards and 6 TDs, I'd consider that successful (assuming the running game and some other WRs step up as expected).

Kroft's last 3 games:  13 catches for 134 yards and 2 touchdowns

If he could become durable enough to miss say just 1 game per season, then these numbers could be roughly as follows.

15 games:  65 catches for 670 yards and 10 touchdowns.

Granted that this is just a multiple of his last 3 games by 5 but I think it may be close to doable for Kroft, if healthy.

Health is our issue.

[depthchart]

(10-19-2017, 12:03 PM)sandwedge Wrote: If we were to draft another TE next year, would you want a traditional TE or a WR type TE? Honestly I think Kroft is a combination of the 2. The year before he was drafted,
Kroft put up pretty good #s receiving and now has learned to block. 

Kroft was a 3rd round pick. 6 foot 6 and around 245 pounds.

I like the Big 6 foot 5 or taller and around 245 to 260 pound tight ends that have the size to do some blocking but mainly present mismatches as pass catchers. Long arms, yet strong with decent speed.

Kroft is built a lot like Eifert.

I want Red Zone threats with size and good hands. Go up and catch the contested ball in traffic.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-19-2017, 12:08 PM)depthchart Wrote: Kroft's last 3 games:  13 catches for 134 yards and 2 touchdowns

If he could become durable enough to miss say just 1 game per season, then these numbers could be roughly as follows.

15 games:  65 catches for 670 yards and 10 touchdowns.

Granted that this is just a multiple of his last 3 games by 5 but I think it may be close to doable for Kroft, if healthy.

Health is our issue.

It's easy to project stats over a whole based on X number of games. People (including myself) do it all the time.
Unfortunately, many of those trends don't actually come to fruition by the end of the season.

If we actually take Kroft's three games and project them over the remaining games, we're looking at...
44.67 YPG and 0.67 TDPG
Spread that over 11 remaining games and it's 491.37 yards and 7.37 TD. Let's round for simplicity sake to 491 yards and 7 TD.
Add that to what he's accumulated so far and he'd be at 630 yards and 9 TD. Not quite double-digit TDs. But that would be a great season for Kroft regardless.

In fact, only five players had double-digit receiving TDs last year, none of which were TEs.
The year before, there were 13 people, three of which were TEs (Eifert, Gronk, Reed).
And the year before that, 15 people, four of which were TEs (Graham, Gates, Julius Thomas, and Gronk).
But your point still stands, it CAN be done and Kroft COULD be one to achieve that given his trend of the past few games, but it's very rare to get 10+ TDs from anyone.
EDIT - Especially for a TE given how they typically miss at least a couple games a season. Kroft is likely due to miss a game or two out of the remaining 11, so it might be tough to reach that projected 600+ yards and 9 TDs.

[*psychdoctor*]

I vote for the best blocking tight end out there. The Reggie Kelly type. Put the tight end where the offensive line has the most problems against the opposing defense. Give Andy Dalton more time.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-18-2017, 07:51 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Well whatever your intent, I still stand by the rest of that post:

I would say a great blocker that can get in the 400's in yards and a handful of TDs may be more valuable than a 800+ yard TE that is mediocre or bad at blocking on a team that has a horrid OL (like the Bengals do) . It all depends on what the team values and what will ultimately help the team the best. If it's a blocking TE, great. If a team has good enough blocking to afford a dynamic pass catcher at TE, good for them.

I personally think a guy like Kroft or Uzomah would be a sufficient TE in an offense that put an emphasis on WRs and the running game. Run 3-WR sets with Kroft/Uzomah inline and Mixon or Bernard in the backfield.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-19-2017, 05:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I would say a great blocker that can get in the 400's in yards and a handful of TDs may be more valuable than a 800+ yard TE that is mediocre or bad at blocking on a team that has a horrid OL (like the Bengals do) . It all depends on what the team values and what will ultimately help the team the best. If it's a blocking TE, great. If a team has good enough blocking to afford a dynamic pass catcher at TE, good for them.

I personally think a guy like Kroft or Uzomah would be a sufficient TE in an offense that put an emphasis on WRs and the running game. Run 3-WR sets with Kroft/Uzomah inline and Mixon or Bernard in the backfield.

Well we're kind of in between a rock and a hard place. Yeah our line is horrific and a good blocking TE would help, but we also suck at WR, so Kroft has been our #2 option in the pass game. In general, I think a good pass catching TE is more valuable in today's pass-heavy NFL, and that's proven by which guys are getting the big contracts. 

That said, with our current situation, I can see both sides. Preferably we get a guy who can do a bit of both...if we actually do sign someone.

[jowczarski]

Re: workouts.

Teams literally work out players every week. It's up to the agents to leak the info out - ideally so other teams can see their client is elsewhere and maybe make a move.

Some workouts are for immediate need: If McCarron ruptured his Achilles that week in practice, they would have needed a QB2 that week.

Some are for "uh oh" scenarios: Like the safeties who came in -- Derron Smith, at that point, hadn't practiced in a while. Who knows, maybe he would've had to go to IR. Or even TE. Hewitt is out for a bit. Uzomah has a knee thing going on. Never know.

Most workouts, however, are for medicals. Guys are in the building, they get to get reviewed, etc. They're basically just running around on air and catching passes. An OL "workout" would basically just be ... mini-camp style? Can't hit anyone.

@ShakeNBlake's research also illustrates a point for the Bengals: guys they likely had high-round grades on that washed out. Why not bring 'em in an get all the info you can?