When does the honeymoon with Tobin end?

[McC]

(10-23-2017, 07:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes! Really they do that for a lot of things.

An 0-7 coach in the playoffs will get us over the hump!

Honestly, Marvin is still here because they're comfortable working with him. He works under the structure they put in place. He doesn't raise a fuss about things.

Put a guy like Zimmer in there and he would raise a fuss.

When your philosophy is our way, now matter what and not we'll do whatever it takes to win, this is the result.  It's really just a question of priority.

I'm at a point now where if Mike decided to take his team somewhere else, I'd be down there to help him pack.

On a side note--Hobspin couldn't even spin yesterday and didn't even try.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(10-23-2017, 07:38 PM)jason Wrote: Yes but wasn't Joey Boss a 4-3 DE? He did just fine in a 3-4 scheme last year.

He's also being moved around. 
He rushes from the edge and inside. 
SD uses him like Houston uses Watt and gets him mismatched on guards a lot. 

[J24]

Meh the scheme issue is irrelevant when it comes to defense now because we play mostly Nickle. Look at Carl Lawson he was a 3-4 prospect but he is doing well here. The problem with Hunt and Clarke wasn't scheme fit but they were just plain bad players. Dunlap was better suited for a 3-4 coming out of college but he is awesome in our scheme.

[Hammerstripes]

(10-23-2017, 04:54 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: We seem to have a fascination with drafting 3-4 defenders and putting them in our 4-3 looks. Moch and Clarke are two more names that were basically square pegs that we tried to fit into round holes. Moch was constantly mentioned as an OLB in a 3-4. Clarke was mocked to be a 3-4 DE prior to his draft.

Those are 2 interesting names.

1.  For years the Bengals have been stubborn about having their DEs at 6'6" and 280+.  Clarke is a perfect specimen.
2.  Moch should have been what Lawson is, but the Bengals have been so stubborn about drafting a player this size.

You have to wonder who makes the "rules" when it comes to drafting on physical traits.  At least they seem to be getting away from that somewhat (at least at the DE spot)

[CanadianBengal]

(10-23-2017, 04:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: K
How many guys do we draft based on workouts?

Strength - Billings/Westerman/Hunt/Bodine
Speed - Ross/Moch

The Bengals put such a priority on these individual workouts sometimes seemingly ahead of game tape.

Nailed it!!!  Go back over the last twenty years and our drafts have always included work out warriors. Stacey Andrews, Sean Brewer, Mattias Askew, Margus Hunt, Artrell Hawkins. They love athletes. But have too many that never pan out. Projects in rounds 5+ are fine but when your team building strategy is tied directly to your draft there is little room for error.  

With a salary cap you can't resign everyone but it's critical to sign the right guys. If you aren't going to use FA then you have to hit on a few draft picks every year and some of them have to become +++ players. 

[CanadianBengal]

(10-23-2017, 10:59 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Meh the scheme issue is irrelevant when it comes to defense now because we play mostly Nickle. Look at Carl Lawson he was a 3-4 prospect but he is doing well here.  The problem with Hunt and Clarke wasn't scheme fit but they were just plain bad players. Dunlap was better suited for a 3-4 coming out of college but he is awesome in our scheme.

I think scheme does matter. If they stuck to playing Lawson as SLB and having him drop back into coverage we would have Reinhard Wilson all over again. Kudos to seeing he can be a great situational pass rusher and using him that way. 

They key is to utilize a scheme that gets the best out of your talent. If you have a CB who is great at man coverage and is weaker in zone, Use mostly man. Sounds simple but Bengals often take guys and try to make the fit their scheme instead of adjusting the scheme to fit the talent. Lawson is a great example of this approach. 

When James Harrison was here they rarely had him rush the passer and instead had him floundering in coverage. The next year the Steelers use him as a situational pass rusher and he has a good year. 

[BenZoo2]

We all know where the blame lies, it's at the top. We will never how much more Marvin wanted to do but couldn't. What players coaches wanted signed or resigned. What picks would have been made with more in depth scouting reports.

I have been off the Marvin bandwagon for awhile but once ebenezer signs a contract with you he expects you to fulfill it. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that ebenezer wouldn't allow the piano man to be dismissed. Or other coaches for that matter.

Until there is a fundamental change at the top of this organization this will remain status quo. Something about the definition of insanity.........

[J24]

(10-23-2017, 11:53 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: I think scheme does matter. If they stuck to playing Lawson as SLB and having him drop back into coverage we would have Reinhard Wilson all over again. Kudos to seeing he can be a great situational pass rusher and using him that way. 

They key is to utilize a scheme that gets the best out of your talent. If you have a CB who is great at man coverage and is weaker in zone, Use mostly man. Sounds simple but Bengals often take guys and try to make the fit their scheme instead of adjusting the scheme to fit the talent. Lawson is a great example of this approach. 

When James Harrison was here they rarely had him rush the passer and instead had him floundering in coverage. The next year the Steelers use him as a situational pass rusher and he has a good year. 

I should have been more specific the 3-4 vs 4-3 argument is kinda of outdated since most teams play Nickle 70% of the time.  Scheme as far as zone vs man or blitzing concepts still matter. 

[J24]

Ok so a couple of questions I really want to ask Tobin
1.) Why don't we Value interior Offensive lineman?
2.)Why do we only have 1 3 technique and 3 nosetackles on the roster?
3.)Why are we using 7.5 million dollars in cap space on two backup Lbers ?
4.) Have you ever heard of the franchise tag?

[Shake n Blake]

Mike Brown is the source of all this teams problems.

1. Smallest personnel and scouting departments in the league, littered with his own family.
2. Ignores free agency and places too much value on compensatory picks.
3. No practice facility.
4. Slow to fire bad coaches/too loyal to certain coaches and players.
5. Our coaches are too involved in scouting and selecting players (this is related to 1).
6. He doesn't value linemen, especially interior linemen.
7. Bargain hunting leads to taking on injured players and bad apples.

We don't talk about Mike much because we all know the man is going nowhere, and even when he dies, he'll be replaced by family. It's either we ignore the problem and make up reasons for optimism, or we all find a new team. There is no happy ending coming.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-23-2017, 11:38 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: Nailed it!!!  Go back over the last twenty years and our drafts have always included work out warriors. Stacey Andrews, Sean Brewer, Mattias Askew, Margus Hunt, Artrell Hawkins. They love athletes. But have too many that never pan out. Projects in rounds 5+ are fine but when your team building strategy is tied directly to your draft there is little room for error.  

With a salary cap you can't resign everyone but it's critical to sign the right guys. If you aren't going to use FA then you have to hit on a few draft picks every year and some of them have to become +++ players. 

I forgot about Andrews.

Clearly brute strength doesn't translate to the football field in many cases.

The Margus Hunt pick was one of the worst picks we made. He was like 27 years old. He was drafted because they knew they'd lose MJ or Dunlap.

[THE PISTONS]

(10-24-2017, 12:47 AM)BenZoo2 Wrote: We all know where the blame lies, it's at the top.  We will never how much more Marvin wanted to do but couldn't.  What players coaches wanted signed or resigned.  What picks would have been made with more in depth scouting reports.

I have been off the Marvin bandwagon for awhile but once ebenezer signs a contract with you he expects you to fulfill it.  I wouldn't be surprised to find out that ebenezer wouldn't allow the piano man to be dismissed.  Or other coaches for that matter.

Until there is a fundamental change at the top of this organization this will remain status quo.  Something about the definition of insanity.........

IF Marvin coached the Steelers and Tomlin coached here...I fully expect Marvin to have won a Super Bowl.

[Bengal Dude]

(10-24-2017, 01:27 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I forgot about Andrews.

Clearly brute strength doesn't translate to the football field in many cases.

The Margus Hunt pick was one of the worst picks we made. He was like 27 years old. He was drafted because they knew they'd lose MJ or Dunlap.

Andrews was okay when he actually tried. He looked pretty good filling for Willie in 2007. Then we tagged him in 08 and he was pissed about that. His play dropped off significantly plus we knew he wanted to go to Philly to play with his brother. I have no idea if he had any other offers when free agency opened in 2009 because he signed with Philly immediately and pissed off the FO/coaches. Then his brother was let go in Philly and he became a malcontent anywhere he went.

[THE PISTONS]

What I remember about Andrews was he was a long-term project then had 1 decent year then left in free agency. They franchise tagged him before his play warranted it.

[Lawless_1]

He doesn't need fired. He needs an assistant like say Dave Lapham that does nothing but scout linemen.

Sent from my Google Pixel using Tapatalk

[Hammerstripes]

(10-23-2017, 11:38 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: Nailed it!!!  Go back over the last twenty years and our drafts have always included work out warriors. Stacey Andrews, Sean Brewer, Mattias Askew, Margus Hunt, Artrell Hawkins. They love athletes. But have too many that never pan out. Projects in rounds 5+ are fine but when your team building strategy is tied directly to your draft there is little room for error.  

With a salary cap you can't resign everyone but it's critical to sign the right guys. If you aren't going to use FA then you have to hit on a few draft picks every year and some of them have to become +++ players. 

In all fairness, most of those guys were later round picks.  At that point you make a choice - go off of average game tape or go off of physical measurables and hope you can coach those guys up.

It's ok to take a workout warrior in the 4th round or later, but taking those guys in round 2 and 3 is pretty stupid.

[snowy]

I've wondered before if Tobin is all he's cracked up to be, or if the job is too big for one guy and he isn't getting the support he needs. Or both. Or neither.

[Hammerstripes]

(10-24-2017, 04:42 PM)snowy Wrote: I've wondered before if Tobin is all he's cracked up to be, or if the job is too big for one guy and he isn't getting the support he needs. Or both. Or neither.

I think the job is too big for one guy.

I think he's done a pretty good  job for the circumstances.  

What I would DIE to know is who is "standing on the table" for certain guys during meetings and during the draft.

For instance, when a good center is on the board, is anyone sitting there and saying "no way, we already have a good one" or are they just not valuing the position?

[CanadianBengal]

(10-24-2017, 02:30 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: COk so a couple of questions I really want to ask Tobin
1.) Why don't we Value interior Offensive lineman?
2.)Why do we only have 1 3 technique and 3 nosetackles on the roster?
3.)Why are we using 7.5 million dollars in cap space on two backup Lbers ?
4.) Have you ever heard of the franchise tag?

Can you add 
5.) why do we have two starting SS and no FS ? 

Since Reggie left we don't get as many turnovers

[BengalChris]

(10-23-2017, 03:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Our drafts have yielded incredibly poor results of late.
We've blamed coordinators.
We've blamed coaches.
We've blamed players.

But Tobin never seems to get blame.
He got a TON of credit after the 11/12 drafts.

But since we've been swinging and missing a lot. Especially with high value picks.

When is the honeymoon with Tobin over?


These drafts should be giving us the new core of the team. 
It's too early to say on 2017. But outlook from 2013-2016 is not great. 

I find it hard to blame Tobin completely. Personnel moves on this team involve its owner and he's a moron when it comes to personnel.

The quality of the team's draft picks seems to ebb and flow some.

There have been plenty of good draft picks and plenty of bad ones. Some of the bad ones weren't obvious at the time of the draft.

Some top quality picks have been:

Atkins, Dunlap, Dalton, Green, Whitworth, Zeitler and more.

Some bad ones have been:

Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine - all offensive linemen. On the DL we have Still, Hunt and Clarke who just didn't really make it at all.

But the 2017 draft seemed to be a home run when it comes to the DL and defense overall.

Dennard and Vigil are playing well and so is Jackson. Kirkpatrick might just be our 4th best corner. Adam Jones can cover AB better than Dre any day of the week and twice on Sunday.


But what is most irritating is that the team knew full well that Ogbuehi, Fisher and Bodine just didn't have it yet they did nothing at all during the off season. That's on Mike Brown and family, not on Tobin. Tobin doesn't decide who gets re-signed or picked up in free agency.