McCarron Needs To Play Against Tampa, or forget about it

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2015, 12:42 AM)J24 Wrote: 1.) If he is one of the 53 most talented players on the roster then its not a terrible decision.
2.) Is keeping Josh Johnson or kieth Wenning any more comforting? Might as well keep the most talented QB out of the three in AJ or sign Jason Campbell.

That's sort of what I thought...but that is why this is a tricky question.  We can't keep McCarron as the only QB2 if he isn't healthy, but at the same time I'd hate to lose McCarron because of a rib injury after waiting over a year for him to recover from the shoulder thing which was "apparently" the reason we even got him in the 5th round to begin with just so we can keep Josh freaking Johnson.

[Luvnit2]

(08-16-2015, 08:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: No doubt. He's really turned it around after a rough start to his career. I'm optimistic, but I want to see how he fares with an increased role before I say he's a complete success or that he's lived up to his draft status.

I don't understand giving a player a tougher grade due to their draft status. Who cares when players are drafted or not drafted?

I want to see results whether they are the #1 overall pick or an undrafted player. Once they are on the roster, they are on the roster regardless of how they got there. If we are discussing contracts, that is a different topic and their results should be considered.

But all rookies on contract #1 make far less after the new CBA in 2011 so they don't have to be a star immediately anymore.

[McC]

(08-16-2015, 07:47 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: Sucked that the Jets got Fitzbeard in the trade.

I wouldve welcomed the beard back with open arms.

He's never had a winning season in any of his gigs.  If your season is in his hands, your season is over.

[Toy Cannon]

When Jeff Rowe was with the Bengals, he put together some nice drives in preseason games, but was let go. When Lapham was asked about it, he said Rowe didn't look as good in practice as he did in those games. So I wouldn't give much weight to how they look in preseason games.

[M.W.]

(08-16-2015, 02:42 AM)TKUHL Wrote: Hell Yeah!!!! my first post, well reply on this new board. btw thanks to you guys and gals that made this happen. Anyway...I see no reason to keep 3 Qb's on the roster when we have Sanu. There's not much hope left if your down to your 3rd QB in a game. I do think Sanu has a better deep ball than Dalton though.

I agree.

I also think the Bengals mind is made up, barring a complete mess up AJ will be the #2. The writing is all over the wall.... I mean Bengals.com.

[yellowxdiscipline]

Myself im a little apprehensive at the teams willingness to put their eggs in the AJ basket on him being the #2 guy. Frankly I hope we bring in another guy off the street. Josh Johnson is not the guy I want taking the helm if Dalton goes down, and if McCarron cant get some valuable reps in the preseason then we have a serious problem in quarterback depth.

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2015, 08:18 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't understand giving a player a tougher grade due to their draft status. Who cares when players are drafted or not drafted?

I want to see results whether they are the #1 overall pick or an undrafted player. Once they are on the roster, they are on the roster regardless of how they got there. If we are discussing contracts, that is a different topic and their results should be considered.

Do you really think this way?  Do you think the Browns are in the boat they are in now because they made poor 1st round choices to the tune of Manziel, Weeden, T-Rich, Mingo etc. or because they made poor 6th round choices?  Do you think we'd have players of Dre and Gio's caliber if Palmer would have been traded for two 5th round picks?

RGIII would be a pretty encouraging player....IF he were drafted in the 4th round or later.

Ryan Leaf played pretty well for a QB who was drafted in the 3rd round and expected to fix the worst team in the league.  What's that?  He was taken 2nd overall?  Ouch.  The reason players taken in the higher rounds are held to higher standards is likely due to the fact that the team selecting them had many more options at the point in time.  

Cedric Benson was taken 4th overall by the Bears in 2005 and the reason that was a bad pick was not only due to Benson's meager returns in Chi town but also because they could have selected one of the 20+ players after him that had much better careers including Aaron Rogers.  Personally, I was more of a Gresham defender than many but the fact that he was a 1st round pick made him difficult to defend.  Anyways, that's my take. It's a simple case of "opportunity cost" where not only are you selecting Player X with a pick but you are (at times more importantly) NOT selecting Player Z and all the others in the draft at that moment with the pick as well.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(08-17-2015, 11:45 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Do you really think this way?  Do you think the Browns are in the boat they are in now because they made poor 1st round choices to the tune of Manziel, Weeden, T-Rich, Mingo etc. or because they made poor 6th round choices?  Do you think we'd have players of Dre and Gio's caliber if Palmer would have been traded for two 5th round picks?

RGIII would be a pretty encouraging player....IF he were drafted in the 4th round or later.

Ryan Leaf played pretty well for a QB who was drafted in the 3rd round and expected to fix the worst team in the league.  What's that?  He was taken 2nd overall?  Ouch.  The reason players taken in the higher rounds are held to higher standards is likely due to the fact that the team selecting them had many more options at the point in time.  

Cedric Benson was taken 4th overall by the Bears in 2005 and the reason that was a bad pick was not only due to Benson's meager returns in Chi town but also because they could have selected one of the 20+ players after him that had much better careers including Aaron Rogers.  Personally, I was more of a Gresham defender than many but the fact that he was a 1st round pick made him difficult to defend.  Anyways, that's my take.  It's a simple case of "opportunity cost" where not only are you selecting Player X with a pick but you are (at times more importantly) NOT selecting Player Z and all the others in the draft at that moment with the pick as well.

Grading a guy differently because of where he was drafted is bad practice. Everyone should just be graded on the same scale in the NFL.

You're adding expectations. The expectations are different. But that doesn't mean the grades are. 

The Browns are the Browns because they DO miss in the first round so much...and the second...and the third...and the fourth...and the fifth...and the sixth....and the seventh....and usually their UDFA....

You generally get more guys with talent in the top of the draft. But again, not sure how that matters once you're in the NFL

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2015, 11:55 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You generally get more guys with talent in the top of the draft. But again, not sure how that matters once you're in the NFL

It matters.  HCs and GMs live and die by their top-round selections.  It's like buying a used car that turns out to be a lemon...if you spent $500 on it that isn't a huge deal but if you spent $5,000 on it suddenly not only do you have a junk car but you might not be able to pay your rent for a few months.

[djs7685]

(08-17-2015, 11:55 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Grading a guy differently because of where he was drafted is bad practice. Everyone should just be graded on the same scale in the NFL.

You're adding expectations. The expectations are different. But that doesn't mean the grades are. 

The Browns are the Browns because they DO miss in the first round so much...and the second...and the third...and the fourth...and the fifth...and the sixth....and the seventh....and usually their UDFA....

You generally get more guys with talent in the top of the draft. But again, not sure how that matters once you're in the NFL

Yeah, stuff like contract and draft position are definitely valid to bring up in some conversations, but I don't know how much it should really affect anything depending on what the debate topic is.

Was it acceptable for Emmanuel Lamur to be awful more often than not because he was undrafted and only making $495k? Should we not be thankful for A.J. Green being an excellent player just because he was a top draft pick and making lots of money?

At the same time, it makes a guy like Lamur more expendable than others because of his low salary and it didn't take a large commitment from the team to sign him (high round pick).

When the games are being played though, your draft status is out the window. Gametime, whether you're a 1st or 7th rounder, you have to play at an acceptable level for an NFL player, not just acceptable for your draft round.

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2015, 12:02 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Yeah, stuff like contract and draft position are definitely valid to bring up in some conversations, but I don't know how much it should really affect anything depending on what the debate topic is.

Was it acceptable for Emmanuel Lamur to be awful more often than not because he was undrafted and only making $495k? Should we not be thankful for A.J. Green being an excellent player just because he was a top draft pick and making lots of money?

AJ Green and Antonio Brown are both top WRs but one was taken 4th overall and one was taken 195th overall.  Both were great picks by their organizations regardless of draft position but I assure you had Mikey and Marvin found AJ Green in the 6th round we'd all be experiencing football-related erections for years.

C'mon man, you can't act like that fact that Tom Brady has the pedigree of a 1st overall pick and Blaine Gabbert has the pedigree of a 7th round nobody hasn't had any effect outside of draft day.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(08-17-2015, 12:02 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Yeah, stuff like contract and draft position are definitely valid to bring up in some conversations, but I don't know how much it should really affect anything depending on what the debate topic is.

Was it acceptable for Emmanuel Lamur to be awful more often than not because he was undrafted and only making $495k? Should we not be thankful for A.J. Green being an excellent player just because he was a top draft pick and making lots of money?

At the same time, it makes a guy like Lamur more expendable than others because of his low salary and it didn't take a large commitment from the team to sign him (high round pick).

When the games are being played though, your draft status is out the window. Gametime, whether you're a 1st or 7th rounder, you have to play at an acceptable level for an NFL player, not just acceptable for your draft round.

It really comes down to salary and marketing. You have a lot more to lose if you cut a guy billed as the future making a ton of money. But if you are talking about GRADING a player, a B is a B. An F is an F. Bad is bad. Good is good. The rest is emotional. 

(08-17-2015, 12:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: AJ Green and Antonio Brown are both top WRs but one was taken 4th overall and one was taken 195th overall.  Both were great picks by their organizations regardless of draft position but I assure you had Mikey and Marvin found AJ Green in the 6th round we'd all be experiencing football-related erections for years.

C'mon man, you can't act like that fact that Tom Brady has the pedigree of a 1st overall pick and Blaine Gabbert has the pedigree of a 7th round nobody hasn't had any effect outside of draft day.

Again, has NOTHING to do with how you grade a player. 

In general there is more talent in the top of the draft. So you get more good players there. The ones that tank stand out.
You have far fewer big time players in the bottom of the draft. So the ones there are stand out. 


Has nothing to do with how they are graded. 

[djs7685]

(08-17-2015, 12:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: AJ Green and Antonio Brown are both top WRs but one was taken 4th overall and one was taken 195th overall.  Both were great picks by their organizations regardless of draft position but I assure you had Mikey and Marvin found AJ Green in the 6th round we'd all be experiencing football-related erections for years.

C'mon man, you can't act like that fact that Tom Brady has the pedigree of a 1st overall pick and Blaine Gabbert has the pedigree of a 7th round nobody hasn't had any effect outside of draft day.

I totally get that stuff like draft position will come up in conversation and there can be debates where it's warranted to mention. I just don't know if player evaluation should be one of those debates where it matters. I completely agree with the quote below. I don't think Lamur was any less bad in 2014 because he was a UDFA. I don't think Geno is any better than he is because he's a mid/late 4th rounder.

The painful thought that Bodine is a mediocre to poor performing center isn't alleviated by the fact that we didn't burn a top pick on him.

I might say something like "it sucks that we used such a high pick on Margus Hunt", and I think stuff like that is fine in conversation, but I won't let him being a 2nd rounder affect my opinion of him if we're speaking purely of his ability as a football player. I don't think he's good at playing football whether he was taken in the 1st round or the 7th.

(08-17-2015, 12:12 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: But if you are talking about GRADING a player, a B is a B. An F is an F. Bad is bad. Good is good. The rest is emotional. 

100% agree with this. For player grading, stuff like draft position should not factor in.

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2015, 12:12 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It really comes down to salary and marketing. You have a lot more to lose if you cut a guy billed as the future making a ton of money. But if you are talking about GRADING a player, a B is a B. An F is an F. Bad is bad. Good is good. The rest is emotional. 


Again, has NOTHING to do with how you grade a player. 

In general there is more talent in the top of the draft. So you get more good players there. The ones that tank stand out.
You have far fewer big time players in the bottom of the draft. So the ones there are stand out. 


Has nothing to do with how they are graded. 

Maybe we're talking about different things.  What do you mean how they are graded?  Since this is a thread once about McCarron are we debating that he should/shouldn't be under any more/less pressure to get on the field because he is a 5th round pick?  If we cut him I assure you it's going to hurt less that we are cutting a 5th round pick than if we were cutting a 1st rounder.  I've seen teams hopelessly attempt to build around high pick QBs they would have moved on from and/or never put on the field had he been drafted in the 4th round or later.

I'm just saying if you look at the job security of HCs, GMs, and players you'll see how a player's draft position can bless or haunt many people long past the day of the draft, is all.

EDIT: Ok, I see you added some more explanation of your post while I was typing this up so we are on different pages.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(08-17-2015, 12:23 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I totally get that stuff like draft position will come up in conversation and there can be debates where it's warranted to mention. I just don't know if player evaluation should be one of those debates where it matters. I completely agree with the quote below. I don't think Lamur was any less bad in 2014 because he was a UDFA. I don't think Geno is any better than he is because he's a mid/late 4th rounder.

The painful thought that Bodine is a mediocre to poor performing center isn't alleviated by the fact that we didn't burn a top pick on him.

I might say something like "it sucks that we used such a high pick on Margus Hunt", and I think stuff like that is fine in conversation, but I won't let him being a 2nd rounder affect my opinion of him if we're speaking purely of his ability as a football player. I don't think he's good at playing football whether he was taken in the 1st round or the 7th.


100% agree with this. For player grading, stuff like draft position should not factor in.

Draft position only matters when discussing in emotions "Oohh he worked so hard from being a fifth rounder!"
or when discussing the draft "They do a good job finding talent in the mid to late rounds on defense and it looks like Josh Shaw will be the next one" 

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2015, 12:33 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Draft position only matters when discussing in emotions "Oohh he worked so hard from being a fifth rounder!"
or when discussing the draft "They do a good job finding talent in the mid to late rounds on defense and it looks like Josh Shaw will be the next one" 

How about "You're being relieved of your GM duties because you used our 1st rounders on players who contributed like they were 7th rounders?" I realize as Bengals fans we forget there are people within front offices in the NFL who are actually held accountable for making bad high-round picks, though!

To spin this positive, I have to admit that I, and others around here, do take it as a sort of "good job" that Dalton is still employed despite being taken a round later than Locker, Gabbert and Ponder.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(08-17-2015, 12:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: How about "You're being relieved of your GM duties because you used our 1st rounders on players who contributed like they were 7th rounders?"  I realize as Bengals fans we forget there are people within front offices in the NFL who are actually held accountable for making bad high-round picks, though!

To spin this positive, I have to admit that I, and other around here, do take it as a sort of "good job" that Dalton is still employed despite being taken a round later than Locker, Gabbert and Ponder.

That would be a false equivalency.

7th rounders can play well in the NFL. Just fewer do than 1st rounders. 

The real reason would be "You just suck at your job and struggle to evaluate and acquire talent"

[*Nately120*]

(08-17-2015, 12:51 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: That would be a false equivalency.

7th rounders can play well in the NFL. Just fewer do than 1st rounders. 

The real reason would be "You just suck at your job and struggle to evaluate and acquire talent"

I'm not saying 7th rounders can't play well, but 1st round picks are more valuable than 7th round picks, ergo the player you select with the more valuable pick has more invested in him by the organization before he even puts on pads.  There is a reason everyone remembers the rounds players like Ryan Leaf and Tom Brady were selected nearly 20 years after the fact.

[XenoMorph]

(08-16-2015, 12:10 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, I'm disappointed McCarron just can't get on the field after over a year BUT I don't see the point in giving pre-season time to a QB we picked up for the sole reason of having experience within the system. Pulling the plug on McCarron would mean we get to see more Joey Jo-Jo Junior Shabadoo than we need and 0 of McCarron so that we are (probably) looking at a 2016 pre-season where McCarron would have 0 snaps of any sort.

What the fudge good does that do anyone?

if mccarron cant get live reps this preseason he is worthless to the team this year imo. the team wont be able to roll with a backup with no experience whatso ever and feel good about it.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-17-2015, 08:18 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't understand giving a player a tougher grade due to their draft status. Who cares when players are drafted or not drafted?

I want to see results whether they are the #1 overall pick or an undrafted player. Once they are on the roster, they are on the roster regardless of how they got there. If we are discussing contracts, that is a different topic and their results should be considered.

But all rookies on contract #1 make far less after the new CBA in 2011 so they don't have to be a star immediately anymore.

I'm not giving DreKirk a tougher grade. I see him how I see him regardless of where he was drafted. He's been a solid role player the last couple seasons. Nothing spectacular, but he flashed some promise. I'd see him that way regardless of whether he was taken in the 1st round or as a 5th rounder.

As a solid role player, has he lived up to his draft status? I'd say no, but I'm optimistic that he'll look good as a starter this year. Like it or not, those are the expectations for a player taken 17th overall. How I see him as a player and whether or not he's lived up to his draft status are 2 separate things for me.