Solving the REAL Problem

[WeezyBengal]

(11-06-2017, 11:35 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: It's not the players.  Every man on the Cincinnati roster was a beast in college and highly sought after in the draft.  They were vetted, evaluated, worked out, poked, prodded, filmed, questioned, tested, Wonderlic-ed, and more.

Watch film on Russell Bodine at North Carolina.  He was a mauler.

Watch film on Cedric Ogbuehi at Texas A&M.  He was wicked good.

Watch film on Jake Fisher at Oregon.  He was one of the best.

Watch film on Andre Smith at Alabama.  He might have been the best college left tackle I've seen in the past decade.

These fine players came to Cincinnati and now their techniques are ruined.  They are empty shells of their old selves.  It's visible, palpable, and everyone can see it except Paul Alexander.  The Piano Man has ruined the techniques of America's best linemen and Andy Dalton will someday pay the price for his ineptitude just like Carson Palmer did.

Get a new offensive line coach, one who is not enamored with the obsolete zone blocking techniques of the 1990s.

Just because a guy is good in college doesnt mean hes going to be good in the NFL. Its a completely different level of football. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2017, 12:36 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: I remember Willie Anderson putting out a tweet about Cedric Ogbuehi and telling people not to give up on him and that the kid had talent. He offered to come work with him and get him straightened out. 

Personally, I agree with you. The talent is there, the technique is all wrong. Munoz, Willie, hell even Joe Walters is hanging around doing things, let those guys go work with the young guys on the line and there would be improvement.

I agree, so why is the notoriously frugal FO wasting money on a guy to coach these players that can't get the job done?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2017, 10:58 AM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Marvin Lewis would be getting coffee for Belicheck and Lombardi.

While I may agree with this....what BengalHawk says is true as well....I mean, who is the guy that has kept Mediocre Merv and Piano Man around?  Mike F***ing Brown!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2017, 11:06 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Just because a guy is good in college doesnt mean hes going to be good in the NFL. Its a completely different level of football. 

Unless we're talking about certain backup QBs, of course.

[sandwedge]

(11-07-2017, 01:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree, so why is the notoriously frugal FO wasting money on a guy to coach these players that can't get the job done?

That is million dollar question. Lastnight they talked about Amir Abdullah leading the league in being hit behind LOS. Our own Mixon was second. To me this says a lot. I've never been a lineman, but I would think learning to run block would be the first thing you learn?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

To solve the REAL problem?

Bribe Mike Browns General Practioner to send Mike Brown to see a Psychiatrist.
Bribe Mike Browns Psychiatrist to have him permanently committed to the third floor of The Christ Hospital.
Profit.

The Christ Hospital no longer has a "Mental Health" floor, but you understand what I'm saying

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2017, 01:35 PM)sandwedge Wrote: That is million dollar question. Lastnight they talked about Amir Abdullah leading the league in being hit behind LOS. Our own Mixon was second. To me this says a lot. I've never been a lineman, but I would think learning to run block would be the first thing you learn?

Pretty much!  The thing we were taught (long ago, mind you, lol) off the bat, was get low and get the defender's hands down.  Run blocking is much easier than pass pro, so that's what I don't get about this unit.  I mean, you use angles to wall off the defender's path to the hole you're running to, and you either drive his ass outta the hole, or you "ride" him out of the play.  The danger to the latter is that a cutback from the RB may lead to your man making the tackle.  When I was outsized from time to time, I would often just get my angle right with my feet, and allow the guy to pursue himself out of the play.....kinda "ride" him around the point of attack, if you will, especially in pass pro on rollouts and boots.  Shit, run blocking was easy then.....just fire out low, hit the sumbitch around the gut, and keep your feet moving and drive for all you're worth.  Piano Man likes his guys to stand up straight and play patty cake.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Paul Alexander is only a symptom of the real problem.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-07-2017, 01:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: Pretty much!  The thing we were taught (long ago, mind you, lol) off the bat, was get low and get the defender's hands down.  Run blocking is much easier than pass pro, so that's what I don't get about this unit.  I mean, you use angles to wall off the defender's path to the hole you're running to, and you either drive his ass outta the hole, or you "ride" him out of the play.  The danger to the latter is that a cutback from the RB may lead to your man making the tackle.  When I was outsized from time to time, I would often just get my angle right with my feet, and allow the guy to pursue himself out of the play.....kinda "ride" him around the point of attack, if you will, especially in pass pro on rollouts and boots.  Shit, run blocking was easy then.....just fire out low, hit the sumbitch around the gut, and keep your feet moving and drive for all you're worth.  Piano Man likes his guys to stand up straight and play patty cake.

A big part of the issue is, the draft guys who run spread, Read/option offenses in college. 
And they have wildly different skills sets than say, a 320lbs earth mover. 

Neither is inherently better than the other but you have to know what you have and how to use it.
Their insistence on using under center runs with Mixon, full backs and shit like that is proof that from the HC down to position coaches they are clueless as to how to put things together. 

Shanahan made his fame on using smaller OL who could zone block but really weren't ever going to be the biggest or strongest OL. But get your zone steps down with functional strength and you're golden. The goal was always get to the spot first and get "same shoulders" then you gash them. Get to the LBs. 

They drafted those "types"...kind of...but outside of Hue no OC really implemented it the way it should which is why we weren't great but we were effective running in 2015. There's a huge disconnect. 

[*PhilHos*]

(11-06-2017, 11:35 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: It's not the players.  Every man on the Cincinnati roster was a beast in college and highly sought after in the draft.  They were vetted, evaluated, worked out, poked, prodded, filmed, questioned, tested, Wonderlic-ed, and more.

Watch film on Russell Bodine at North Carolina.  He was a mauler.

Watch film on Cedric Ogbuehi at Texas A&M.  He was wicked good.

Watch film on Jake Fisher at Oregon.  He was one of the best.

Watch film on Andre Smith at Alabama.  He might have been the best college left tackle I've seen in the past decade.

These fine players came to Cincinnati and now their techniques are ruined.  They are empty shells of their old selves.  It's visible, palpable, and everyone can see it except Paul Alexander.  The Piano Man has ruined the techniques of America's best linemen and Andy Dalton will someday pay the price for his ineptitude just like Carson Palmer did.

Get a new offensive line coach, one who is not enamored with the obsolete zone blocking techniques of the 1990s.

Solving the REAL problem would involve getting someone other than Mike Brown to be the owner. Or, at the very least, hire a GM and give him full GM authority and control with no interference from the owner.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2017, 05:16 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: A big part of the issue is, the draft guys who run spread, Read/option offenses in college. 
And they have wildly different skills sets than say, a 320lbs earth mover. 

Neither is inherently better than the other but you have to know what you have and how to use it.
Their insistence on using under center runs with Mixon, full backs and shit like that is proof that from the HC down to position coaches they are clueless as to how to put things together. 

Shanahan made his fame on using smaller OL who could zone block but really weren't ever going to be the biggest or strongest OL. But get your zone steps down with functional strength and you're golden. The goal was always get to the spot first and get "same shoulders" then you gash them. Get to the LBs. 

They drafted those "types"...kind of...but outside of Hue no OC really implemented it the way it should which is why we weren't great but we were effective running in 2015. There's a huge disconnect. 

Absolutely agree with you 100%.  Leverage and proper angle (razor sharp fundamentals) can mask lack of strength.  Also, as you say, if you're going to run zone blocking scheme, use it correctly.  If you're going to try a more basic blocking scheme, get road graders.....not tweeners and "athletes".

That said, I don't like the run blocking technique used in Cincy at all.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-06-2017, 11:35 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: It's not the players.  Every man on the Cincinnati roster was a beast in college and highly sought after in the draft.  They were vetted, evaluated, worked out, poked, prodded, filmed, questioned, tested, Wonderlic-ed, and more.

Watch film on Russell Bodine at North Carolina.  He was a mauler.

Watch film on Cedric Ogbuehi at Texas A&M.  He was wicked good.

Watch film on Jake Fisher at Oregon.  He was one of the best.

Watch film on Andre Smith at Alabama.  He might have been the best college left tackle I've seen in the past decade.

These fine players came to Cincinnati and now their techniques are ruined.  They are empty shells of their old selves.  It's visible, palpable, and everyone can see it except Paul Alexander.  The Piano Man has ruined the techniques of America's best linemen and Andy Dalton will someday pay the price for his ineptitude just like Carson Palmer did.

Get a new offensive line coach, one who is not enamored with the obsolete zone blocking techniques of the 1990s.

PA definately needs to go and is a big part of the problem. The REAL problem comes from the top down but we can only
solve what can be solved and that is to move on from Marv, PA and maybe all the coaches and start fresh after the season.

Hire a new HC and let him pick his own staff and do as he seems fit.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-07-2017, 05:21 PM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely agree with you 100%.  Leverage and proper angle (razor sharp fundamentals) can mask lack of strength.  Also, as you say, if you're going to run zone blocking scheme, use it correctly.  If you're going to try a more basic blocking scheme, get road graders.....not tweeners and "athletes".

That said, I don't like the run blocking technique used in Cincy at all.

It's hard to say because only one guy on the OL consistently has any 

I'm genuinely worried about Fisher and this illness. It's clearly something substantial. Marv said he's dealt with it all year and there was concern about his weightloss last year.

[bengals67]

(11-07-2017, 05:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: PA definately needs to go and is a big part of the problem. The REAL problem comes from the top down but we can only
solve what can be solved and that is to move on from Marv, PA and maybe all the coaches and start fresh after the season.

Hire a new HC and let him pick his own staff and do as he seems fit.

:andy:

Alexander needs to go. He has completely failed in picking new talent and coaching them up.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-07-2017, 05:25 PM)bengals67 Wrote: :andy:

Alexander needs to go. He has completely failed in picking new talent and coaching them up.

Let's appreciate how this is probably the only team where coaches can be blamed for picking players and it not actually be a meaningless claim lol

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2017, 05:25 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It's hard to say because only one guy on the OL consistently has any 

I'm genuinely worried about Fisher and this illness. It's clearly something substantial. Marv said he's dealt with it all year and there was concern about his weightloss last year.

Ha ha ha ha, so very true.

I was unaware Fish was ill until Sunday.  I wonder what is up with him?  Must be pretty bad to leave the game and go to the hospital over it.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-07-2017, 05:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: Ha ha ha ha, so very true.

I was unaware Fish was ill until Sunday.  I wonder what is up with him?  Must be pretty bad to leave the game and go to the hospital over it.

I assumed flu then I was informed it's been something he's dealt with all season. Throw in his weight loss last year...could be something bigger than football to worry about for the man. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2017, 05:32 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I assumed flu then I was informed it's been something he's dealt with all season. Throw in his weight loss last year...could be something bigger than football to worry about for the man. 

Oh wow.....I certainly hope he gets the treatment he needs and a full recovery.  That's scary, thanks for the info.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-07-2017, 05:25 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: It's hard to say because only one guy on the OL consistently has any 

I'm genuinely worried about Fisher and this illness. It's clearly something substantial. Marv said he's dealt with it all year and there was concern about his weightloss last year.

Didn't know this about Fisher, first i heard of the illness was Sunday.

Hope he can get better because i like his fire. Technique is where he is lacking and that can be coached up.

Og, i doubt it. Seems way too passive out there.

(11-07-2017, 05:25 PM)bengals67 Wrote: :andy:

Alexander needs to go. He has completely failed in picking new talent and coaching them up.

Agreed.

(11-07-2017, 05:29 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Let's appreciate how this is probably the only team where coaches can be blamed for picking players and it not actually be a meaningless claim lol

Plus PA is the assistant HC.

Have a hard time believing he doesn't pick his own Lineman especially when he has said so himself, he had us trade up for Blodine.

Like i said in the other thread it seems like Marv and PA sabotage themselves for heck sake.

(11-07-2017, 05:30 PM)Wyche Wrote: Ha ha ha ha, so very true.

I was unaware Fish was ill until Sunday.  I wonder what is up with him?  Must be pretty bad to leave the game and go to the hospital over it.

Yeah, never heard this before about him dealing with this all year. Sounds rough and makes it hard to judge the guy now.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-07-2017, 05:36 PM)Wyche Wrote: Oh wow.....I certainly hope he gets the treatment he needs and a full recovery.  That's scary, thanks for the info.

Hope it's just misinformation at it's finest and it's nothing at all. 

But certainly paints things in a different light