I keep hearing that Marvin and Dalton are the problem

[THE PISTONS]

Is Marvin a great coach? No. But he took a team that was as bad as the Browns are now to respectable.
Is Dalton a great QB? No. But he plays for a team that can't run the ball, doesn't invest in interior offensive line, and retains poor coaches.

My questions are: IF Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers were drafted here do you think they would have reached the same levels in their careers? Also, IF Mike Tomlin were our HC and Marvin coached the Steelers, do you think Tomlin would have led us to a Super Bowl and Pittsburgh would be the playoff underachiever that we are?

The Bengals definitely do things different than the rest of the NFL. Having a small scouting staff and relying on scouting services and coaches to scout. Giving jobs to guys like Paul Alexander for some 20+ years. I mean the guy survived the 90's. That's all I have to say.

Not valuing C and G. Lowballing Zeitler with a $5.5 million offer according to Lapham while DeCastro signs for $10 million a year.

Letting some of our best players leave and touting getting a Comp pick.

Not relying much on free agency.

Allowing obvious holes on the team go unfixed.

Yet...fans blame Pickens, Scott, Palmer, Dillon, etc.

How much success can ANY Coach or QB have under the above constraints?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

I agree 100%, although I'm not sold on Merv either......however, in regards as who to blame.....some men, you just can't reach.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:42 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree 100%, although I'm not sold on Merv either......however, in regards as who to blame.....some men, you just can't reach.

Yes. I'm not convinced he'd be a great HC...but if you put him on the Steelers I think he'd have similar success to Tomlin. They're VERY similar coaches.

This is a franchise that has playoff games in 3 of 49 seasons. It's the Siberia of the NFL.

[*michaelsean*]

Marvin is terrible, Dalton is decent, and winning with this owner is insurmountable for any coach or QB

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 12:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yes. I'm not convinced he'd be a great HC...but if you put him on the Steelers I think he'd have similar success to Tomlin. They're VERY similar coaches.

This is a franchise that has playoff games in 3 of 49 seasons. It's the Siberia of the NFL.

Oh I agree, but "noodle arm", "red headed rifle"......blah, blah.  At one time, I think Merv could have gotten us a W......if only the FO would have signed one or two REAL FAs to fill the few gaps we had.  With the gaps we have now, it's like the little Dutch boy trying to plug a crumbling Hoover Dam with his fingers.

[CageTheBengal]

Take a look at the Packers right now. It's evident imo that Rodgers has been carrying the that franchise and covering up the poor coaching they have. So I think that a player as good as Rodgers or Brady could carry our franchise especially considering the defenses we had out on the field from 2011-2015 and the fact we have AJ Green. The line has only been horrible for 2 years.

Marvin has fizzled out here and he may find success with a different team but it just isn't working here anymore. I believe he has lost the players and how motivated can you expect them to be when he has been coaching this team for nearly a decade and a half with 0 playoff wins? Not only that but completely bombed most of them.

We really have no idea who is making a lot of the decisions at this point. We can speculate and find articles saying Mike has largely stepped aside and it's Marvin, Katie and Tobin running the show and there are other reasons to suggest that might not be the case. There is no concrete evidence though.

The bottom line for me is Marvin has 0 playoff wins after 14 years and any coach should be fired after that. I don't believe we will revert back to the 90s just because we let him go.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:46 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Marvin is terrible, Dalton is decent, and winning with this owner is insurmountable for any coach or QB

How is Marvin so terrible? He took a team that was basically Cleveland Browns level bad in the 90's to 7 playoff appearances. Yeah he couldn't win a game. But a terrible HC wouldn't succeed here.

And yeah...he had to play scout too. Which the college games go on during the NFL season.

He had to do it without major free agent signings. He had to do it while letting key free agents walk for Comp picks.

He had to do it while ownership took in handfuls of players with major red flags.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 12:48 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Take a look at the Packers right now. It's evident imo that Rodgers has been carrying the that franchise and covering up the poor coaching they have. So I think that a player as good as Rodgers or Brady could carry our franchise especially considering the defenses we had out on the field from 2011-2015 and the fact we have AJ Green. The line has only been horrible for 2 years.

Marvin has fizzled out here and he may find success with a different team but it just isn't working here anymore. I believe he has lost the players and how motivated can you expect them to be when he has been coaching this team for nearly a decade and a half with 0 playoff wins? Not only that but completely bombed most of them.

We really have no idea who is making a lot of the decisions at this point. We can speculate and find articles saying Mike has largely stepped aside and it's Marvin, Katie and Tobin running the show and there are other reasons to suggest that might not be the case. There is no concrete evidence though.

The bottom line for me is Marvin has 0 playoff wins after 14 years and any coach should be fired after that. I don't believe we will revert back to the 90s just because we let him go.

No question Brady or Rodgers would have fared better 2011-2015 (although Andy had better numbers in 2015 until the injury), but the last two years have been hard to expect ANYONE to succeed.  

With that said, I think the coaching is better in GB, Rodgers has masked some suspect players, and Hundley is a raw youngster thrust into a bad situation.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:48 PM)Wyche Wrote: Oh I agree, but "noodle arm", "red headed rifle"......blah, blah.  At one time, I think Merv could have gotten us a W......if only the FO would have signed one or two REAL FAs to fill the few gaps we had.  With the gaps we have now, it's like the little Dutch boy trying to plug a crumbling Hoover Dam with his fingers.

Yeah...the roster is pretty terrible. I've seen it ranked somewhere around the 24th best roster in the NFL. Having 4 offensive lineman start that would be backups on most teams is bad enough.

Marvin's beaten down here. He needs to leave.

He should have had more playoff success in probably atleast 1 or 2 years...

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:48 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Take a look at the Packers right now. It's evident imo that Rodgers has been carrying the that franchise and covering up the poor coaching they have. So I think that a player as good as Rodgers or Brady could carry our franchise especially considering the defenses we had out on the field from 2011-2015 and the fact we have AJ Green. The line has only been horrible for 2 years.

Marvin has fizzled out here and he may find success with a different team but it just isn't working here anymore. I believe he has lost the players and how motivated can you expect them to be when he has been coaching this team for nearly a decade and a half with 0 playoff wins? Not only that but completely bombed most of them.

We really have no idea who is making a lot of the decisions at this point. We can speculate and find articles saying Mike has largely stepped aside and it's Marvin, Katie and Tobin running the show and there are other reasons to suggest that might not be the case. There is no concrete evidence though.

The bottom line for me is Marvin has 0 playoff wins after 14 years and any coach should be fired after that. I don't believe we will revert back to the 90s just because we let him go.

You're looking at if you put current Aaron Rodgers on our team. My point is, IF the Bengals drafted them...would they have developed?

The Packers sat Rodgers for years to develop him.

And I agree that Marvin needs to go. But, people on the boards like to blame the HC and QB...when the roster is terrible. Absolutely terrible. That's on management. And we had some $18 million cap space going into the season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 12:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...the roster is pretty terrible. I've seen it ranked somewhere around the 24th best roster in the NFL. Having 4 offensive lineman start that would be backups on most teams is bad enough.

Marvin's beaten down here. He needs to leave.

He should have had more playoff success in probably atleast 1 or 2 years...

I'm not so sure a couple of them would make some practice squads.


I think Merv shoulda been sent home after 2010.....definitely after 2013.

[*michaelsean*]

(11-09-2017, 12:49 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: How is Marvin so terrible? He took a team that was basically Cleveland Browns level bad in the 90's to 7 playoff appearances. Yeah he couldn't win a game. But a terrible HC wouldn't succeed here.

And yeah...he had to play scout too. Which the college games go on during the NFL season.

He had to do it without major free agent signings. He had to do it while letting key free agents walk for Comp picks.

He had to do it while ownership took in handfuls of players with major red flags.

I don't see players getting any better.  I see some not very good players getting drafted in high spots.  I see Bodine still at center.  I see uninspired players.  

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: No question Brady or Rodgers would have fared better 2011-2015 (although Andy had better numbers in 2015 until the injury), but the last two years have been hard to expect ANYONE to succeed.  

With that said, I think the coaching is better in GB, Rodgers has masked some suspect players, and Hundley is a raw youngster thrust into a bad situation.

You're looking at putting current day finished product Rodgers on the roster...and yeah we would be better.

But IF we drafted Rodgers or Brady Day 1 and had to develop them. Do they turn out that good?

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:57 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I don't see players getting any better.  I see some not very good players getting drafted in high spots.  I see Bodine still at center.  I see uninspired players.  

Who do you replace Bodine with? The front office is the ones who should bring someone else in.

re: Bodine - We have 1st and 2nd Round picks who can't start Day 1. Yet Bodine gets drafted as a 4th Round pick and handed the starting job. They didn't look to free agency for competition.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 12:54 PM)Wyche Wrote: I'm not so sure a couple of them would make some practice squads.


I think Merv shoulda been sent home after 2010.....definitely after 2013.

Yeah...the meltdown against the Steelers was the final straw for Marvin. When that lack of discipline happens on the field...you don't recover from it.

At minimum Marvin or Jones needed to go.

In reality...no changes were made.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 01:05 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You're looking at putting current day finished product Rodgers on the roster...and yeah we would be better.

But IF we drafted Rodgers or Brady Day 1 and had to develop them. Do they turn out that good?

Yeah, I get your point......and, honestly, I can't answer that.  I don't think he has the success here that he has in GB.....but I think his ability to extend plays vs Dalton's struggles under duress would help *some*.  That is an aspect of Rodgers' game that didn't need coached up.  Of course, watching and learning with Favre is a big help in that department as well.

Brady, on the other hand, I have my doubts.

[Bengalholic]

(11-09-2017, 12:36 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: How much success can ANY Coach or QB have under the above constraints?

The thing is, Marvin did have success, in terms of the regular season and reaching the playoffs...including a very impressive 5 year run.

The problem is, that as a coach, he hasn't shown himself to be capable of taking a team to the next step, or to regularly compete when the lights are the brightest.

Had he been able to win a couple of those playoff games, we would probably being viewing him much differently. Instead, he - and his teams - have failed on every occasion.

At some point, despite the owner or other obstacles, he has been in position to change his own narrative multiple times and hasn't been able to do so. IMO, he's an OK coach, capable of building a roster and creating a certain level of success...but that's where he plateaus, and any hopes of getting beyond that point fall victim to his limitations as HC.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:13 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The thing is, Marvin did have success, in terms of the regular season and reaching the playoffs...including a very impressive 5 year run.

The problem is, that as a coach, he hasn't shown himself to be capable of taking a team to the next step, or to regularly compete when the lights are the brightest.

Had he been able to win a couple of those playoff games, we would probably being viewing him much differently. Instead, he - and his teams - have failed on every occasion.

At some point, despite the owner or other obstacles, he has been in position to change his own narrative multiple times and hasn't been able to do so. IMO, he's an OK coach, capable of building a roster and creating a certain level of success...but that's where he plateaus, and any hopes of getting beyond that point fall victim to his limitations as HC.

And I agree...he never took the team to elite and needs to go.

So to be a coach of the Bengals, the next guy will need to possess the skillset to rebuild the team to competitive, then he'll also have to be a great motivator and tactician.

I think that's a lot of diverse skills to want in 1 guy. That's why the shortest path is to hire a GM and let the coach focus on coaching.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 01:11 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah, I get your point......and, honestly, I can't answer that.  I don't think he has the success here that he has in GB.....but I think his ability to extend plays vs Dalton's struggles under duress would help *some*.  That is an aspect of Rodgers' game that didn't need coached up.  Of course, watching and learning with Favre is a big help in that department as well.

Brady, on the other hand, I have my doubts.

Yeah...here I doubt Brady ever sees the field and is out of the league in 5-6 years.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-09-2017, 01:18 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...here I doubt Brady ever sees the field and is out of the league in 5-6 years.

He would face some pretty daunting obstacles here for sure.....