I keep hearing that Marvin and Dalton are the problem

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 02:04 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Currently, Marvin Lewis is the biggest problem on this team. Yes, I'd say he's now more of a detriment than Mike Brown.

Andy has struggled, sure. But this team has arguably the worst offensive line not only in team history but maybe in league history. Plus, Andy has been handcuffed by Marvin's incompetence for his entire career. It's not really fair to say Andy is subpar, especially when he was top 3 in the MVP race only two years ago. Give Andy a halfway decent offensive line and a head coach who has respect from the players and has a clue and see what he can do. I think a lot of people will be very pleasantly surprised.

Now, with all that said... If we do by some miracle have a new coach after this season and are picking in the top 5-10, we'd be crazy to not take one of these many potentially special QB's in the first round. The Oline can and should be fixed via FA and the following rounds in the draft. Will that happen? Probably not because Marv will probably have another meeting with Mike Brown and talk his way into more "control" and another extension a la 2010. 

That happens, look for more skill positions in the draft... Because this current Oline is fine. They just need to play better  

This is what I'd like to see happen (actual possibilities in bold:
1) Mike Brown officially turns control of the Bengals to Katie.
2) Katie hires a GM (not Merv, though I'm not completely against it)
3) Hire a new HC (and NOT one that's a current Bengals coach)
4) Hire all new coaching staff and coordinators (some current coaches are acceptable as long as the choice is completely up to the new HC; NO PAUL ALEXANDER)
5) If we are able to draft a potential franchise QB in the first round, draft him.
6) Draft for areas of need.
7) Sign QUALITY free agents to fill in other areas of need.
8) Let the best players start and play regardless of the length they've been in the NFL, regardless of their contract size, etc.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-09-2017, 02:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: This is what I'd like to see happen (actual possibilities in bold:
1) Mike Brown officially turns control of the Bengals to Katie.
2) Katie hires a GM (not Merv, though I'm not completely against it)
3) Hire a new HC (and NOT one that's a current Bengals coach)
4) Hire all new coaching staff and coordinators (some current coaches are acceptable as long as the choice is completely up to the new HC; NO PAUL ALEXANDER)
5) If we are able to draft a potential franchise QB in the first round, draft him.
6) Draft for areas of need.
7) Sign QUALITY free agents to fill in other areas of need.
8) Let the best players start and play regardless of the length they've been in the NFL, regardless of their contract size, etc.

That would be my dream !

I'd settle for like 6 of the 8 but nothing less. I'm not opposed to drafting a QB......IF all the other stuff is taken care of. New HC, use free agency (really use it) not bargain basement crap, to fix O-line and address needs.

[CageTheBengal]

(11-09-2017, 12:51 PM)Wyche Wrote: No question Brady or Rodgers would have fared better 2011-2015 (although Andy had better numbers in 2015 until the injury), but the last two years have been hard to expect ANYONE to succeed.  

With that said, I think the coaching is better in GB, Rodgers has masked some suspect players, and Hundley is a raw youngster thrust into a bad situation.

Looking only at these last 2 years I'd agree it'd be much harder for them to succeed. I think at best they might sneak out a playoff win but once you throw Marv in the mix and his playoff flops idk it'd be hard to say. It'd be interesting for sure.

Honestly I think it's a shame the Packers haven't been able to build a better team around Aaron and they should have been to the Superbowl again and maybe even have another ring. 

[THE PISTONS]

The Packers did play in the NFC Championship Game last year...

[thillan]

I don't think they are the lone problem, but I do think they are A problem. We talk about Marvin all the time, but the biggest thing I see is someone who just shouldn't be a head coach. He can't control players, shows no fire when things aren't going his way, and seems very content on mediocre.

As for Dalton.. I just think he's a lesser Alex Smith. I posted yesterday about he was once in the MVP discussion, but the guy had a ton of talent around him as well, which helps a lot of course. When I want a QB, I want a guy that can win in the big games, and overcome issues.

In the AFC championship game, down 4 with 1:25 to go 75 yards, and against the Pats/Steelers, I do not believe Marvin/Dalton can get it done. I just don't see the "winner" trait that's needed to go that far.

[sandwedge]

(11-09-2017, 02:33 PM)thillan Wrote: I don't think they are the lone problem, but I do think they are A problem. We talk about Marvin all the time, but the biggest thing I see is someone who just shouldn't be a head coach. He can't control players, shows no fire when things aren't going his way, and seems very content on mediocre.

As for Dalton.. I just think he's a lesser Alex Smith. I posted yesterday about he was once in the MVP discussion, but the guy had a ton of talent around him as well, which helps a lot of course. When I want a QB, I want a guy that can win in the big games, and overcome issues.

In the AFC championship game, down 4 with 1:25 to go 75 yards, and against the Pats/Steelers, I do not believe Marvin/Dalton can get it done. I just don't see the "winner" trait that's needed to go that far.

It's hard to overcome issues when all you really have time to do, is duck and chuck.

[thillan]

(11-09-2017, 02:37 PM)sandwedge Wrote: It's hard to overcome issues when all you really have time to do, is duck and chuck.

I'm talking beyond this season or last. I mean overall, throughout Dalton's career and Marvin's tenure, I do not see either of them as able to make the big play when the pressure is as high as it is in the postseason.

[THE PISTONS]

When you have a borderline Pro Bowl Guard in Zeitler and guys on a team see a comparable guy for Pittsburgh in DeCastro get signed for $10 million a year...and your guy gets offered $5.5 million a year according to Lapham...and you talk about how losing him is good because you get Comp Picks.

It has to totally demoralize an entire team to the point where they think they can't compete.

Years ago when the Bengals waived Chris Henry and Marvin said the Bengals wouldn't sign him back...and MB went out and signed him. Undermining Marvin.

[CageTheBengal]

(11-09-2017, 02:20 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Packers did play in the NFC Championship Game last year...

From what I can see it's the same issues just about every year.

A slow start, No running game, Lack of a TE threat and the o-line needs to come together. (although the o-line did look better this year but slammed with injuries.) 

They've been trying to build these things around Aaron for years.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 02:39 PM)thillan Wrote: I'm talking beyond this season or last. I mean overall, throughout Dalton's career and Marvin's tenure, I do not see either of them as able to make the big play when the pressure is as high as it is in the postseason.

Dalton is 13th among active QBs in game winning drives (tied with Luck). Aside from Russell Wilson, everyone that has more than him has also been in the league longer than him. Just sayin'.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

[Pat5775]

(11-09-2017, 02:39 PM)thillan Wrote: I'm talking beyond this season or last. I mean overall, throughout Dalton's career and Marvin's tenure, I do not see either of them as able to make the big play when the pressure is as high as it is in the postseason.

Fair points. We've all seen Andy miss plenty of wide open receivers in big games that had nothing to do with a collapsing Olinr or bad playcalling. Just straight up missed the throw, didn't see them open or panicked and chucked it out of bounds. All before this and last years Oline ruined the offense. Certainly not encouraging to see.


Precisely why I think it would be wise to take a QB early.

I'm not ready to give up on Andy just yet, but he's 30 years old now and will have what, 2 years left on his contract? If he continues his personal struggles in big games with a new coach, we'll have a young up and comer waiting in the wings. 

Though again, I really believe a huge part of Andys struggles stem from Marvin Lewis' loser mentality. 

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 02:49 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Fair points. We've all seen Andy miss plenty of wide open receivers in big games that had nothing to do with a collapsing Olinr or bad playcalling. Just straight up missed the throw, didn't see them open or panicked and chucked it out of bounds. All before this and last years Oline ruined the offense. Certainly not encouraging to see.


Precisely why I think it would be wise to take a QB early.

I'm not ready to give up on Andy just yet, but he's 30 years old now and will have what, 2 years left on his contract? If he continues his personal struggles in big games with a new coach, we'll have a young up and comer waiting in the wings. 

Though again, I really believe a huge part of Andys struggles stem from Marvin Lewis' loser mentality. 

My concern with Andy is if, somehow we get an improved OL, can he revert back to the 2015 Dalton or will he still be feeling phantom pressure and rushing throws? 

[thillan]

(11-09-2017, 02:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Dalton is 13th among active QBs in game winning drives (tied with Luck). Aside from Russell Wilson, everyone that has more than him has also been in the league longer than him. Just sayin'.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/gwd_career.htm

Yeah I remember the "Cardiac Cats" run, and I loved it, don't get me wrong. But I also think that things are MUCH different when you are going on these drives in the postseason.

This is just me personally though.. I want the QB to be the ultimate competitor, and a winner. I actually wanted the Bengals to draft Watson for this reason. I'm not saying he would have as much success here, but I do think he would've been an upgrade.

We've seen lesser QBs/game managers win it all of course, it's just not the route I would take if I was in control.  

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 02:53 PM)PhilHos Wrote: My concern with Andy is if, somehow we get an improved OL, can he revert back to the 2015 Dalton or will he still be feeling phantom pressure and rushing throws? 

No doubt a bad offensive line has ruined many a QB's internal clock.

Honestly, how fast can we fix the offensive line? You know we won't go out and sign 4 free agents. Drafted guys are hit or miss.

I tend to think a Top 10 Tackle should be able to come in and start. Then go Center in Round 2.

[thillan]

(11-09-2017, 02:53 PM)PhilHos Wrote: My concern with Andy is if, somehow we get an improved OL, can he revert back to the 2015 Dalton or will he still be feeling phantom pressure and rushing throws? 

Exactly. I loved 2015 Andy, but it's just not the same guy. It's not all his fault, but some of the blame he gets is deserved IMO.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 02:56 PM)thillan Wrote: Exactly. I loved 2015 Andy, but it's just not the same guy. It's not all his fault, but some of the blame he gets is deserved IMO.

2015 Andy had Jones speed at WR which changed defenses. Sanu as a possession guy. A better line. A better running game.

Everyone wanted to say that Lafell and Boyd replaced Jones and Sanu...and maybe statistically they did. But Jones speed opened the offense up. Lafell doesn't have that speed.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 02:54 PM)thillan Wrote: Yeah I remember the "Cardiac Cats" run, and I loved it, don't get me wrong. But I also think that things are MUCH different when you are going on these drives in the postseason.

True, but I think the issues ar emore a result of Merv's poor coaching than any of the players.

(11-09-2017, 02:56 PM)thillan Wrote: Exactly. I loved 2015 Andy, but it's just not the same guy. It's not all his fault, but some of the blame he gets is deserved IMO.

He definitely shoulders some of the blame, but it's clear that much of the issues with Dalton stem from thigns around him. That said, he still needs to overcome those things that he has control over (i.e. completing deep passes down the sideline).

[XenoMorph]

(11-09-2017, 02:49 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Fair points. We've all seen Andy miss plenty of wide open receivers in big games that had nothing to do with a collapsing Olinr or bad playcalling. Just straight up missed the throw, didn't see them open or panicked and chucked it out of bounds. All before this and last years Oline ruined the offense. Certainly not encouraging to see.

All Qbs miss them wide open throws from time to time...


If a WR is wide open on the left but the qb is being flushed to the right.  that WR is out of play at that point... 

what we do very very poorly ive notice is when the QB has to scramble I hardly see guys making adjustments and trying to get open to help him or give him a target.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-09-2017, 03:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: True, but I think the issues ar emore a result of Merv's poor coaching than any of the players.


He definitely shoulders some of the blame, but it's clear that much of the issues with Dalton stem from thigns around him. That said, he still needs to overcome those things that he has control over (i.e. completing deep passes down the sideline).

How is Marvin responsible for the offensive line?

The line was below average last year and lost it's 2 best players to free agency. What do you expect the offense to be able to do? The running game is pathetic.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-09-2017, 03:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: How is Marvin responsible for the offensive line?

Merv is responsible for putting the best guys out there. Merv is responsible for the draft and he has enough clout to get Brown to go out and get people. It may not be Merv's fault that both Zeitler and Whit signed elsewhere, but I don't see why he didn't get Brown to go out and get guys to replacem them. I firmly believe that Merv thought Og and Fisher would be "good enough".