People keep bashing the offense

[*bengalfan74*]

The whole of the game works in unison, they're not isolated events !

The defense overall has been .....ok, but they're far from faultless. The offense has been putrid overall. But they play off of one another. If the offense could get out of it's own way I'd be willing to bet the D would be playing better.

This doesn't explain our giving up first half points though. I'd bet a lot of that is getting outcoached ! And things like MJ being our primary RDE. The laid back 3rd down soft zone coverage, etc.

[sandwedge]

You almost always see our LBers drop back about 3-5 yds behind the 1st down line and the offense just makes an easy catch for a 1st down. I saw this 3 times in the game against Denver. No you can't place all the blame on our offense.

[bengalsturntup5532]

Well it's a offensive league now,the rules are just set up for offenses to score. Let's go back to the Bengals division game 2005. You would say the Steelers had a good defense wouldn't you? They couldn't stop our offense from scoring. And we couldn't atop them until the 3rd drive

[3wt]

(11-21-2017, 10:55 AM)Wyche Wrote: For the last three weeks (the weeks that have seen the worst T.O.P. numbers), the opposition has had long, run the ball down our throats, opening drives/drives in the first quarter/half.  That has nothing to do with lousy offensive production.  The defense isn't gassed their first trip onto the field. Both units are not very good, is the reality.  The defense CANNOT stop the run, we CANNOT run the ball.  Maybe Minter was a bigger asset than some realize.

This

I'm tired of hearing how our defense is good till it gets gassed.   They are not playing well when they're fresh.  The line gets pushed around and taken out of their gaps and almost no one can tackle.   It's embarrassing to watch.

And I have to agree with Bfine on Mixon.   I think he's way overrated.  He can get around the edge for a big guy, but I think his vision is really poor.  Should have taken Cook... or an offensive lineman.

We don't seem to have a good long range assessment of talent.   There will be a number of good backs in this draft - and folks have been talking about them since game 1.

[THE PISTONS]

We're 28th in completion percentage against on defense. But 2nd in average yards per catch at 6.2 yards. Tied for 4th in sacks.

[3wt]

(11-21-2017, 10:59 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Well ya its a little of both

The Offense 3 and outs aren't helping the defense get any rest and with T.o.P.  the defense is gassed by the end of the game. 

The defense isn't doing themselves any favors with constant penalities and big plays given up on 3rd down to get themselves off the field and the offense more chances.

Their bend don't break philosophy results in our defensive backfield giving too much cushion on 3rd down and then we follow up with school girl tackling.   I mean I understand the logic of the bend don't break, but I think we bend more than we have to.

[*Nately120*]

(11-21-2017, 11:20 AM)Yojimbo Wrote: Scoring offense = 29th

Scoring defense = 22nd

Yup the offense is worse.

Leave it to those negative nancy Bengals fans to find something wrong with a 29th ranked offense.  Sheesh.

(11-21-2017, 03:21 PM)3wt Wrote: And I have to agree with Bfine on Mixon.   I think he's way overrated.  He can get around the edge for a big guy, but I think his vision is really poor.  Should have taken Cook... or an offensive lineman.

I can't speak for Bfine, but I'm not against Mixon so much as I'm against the notion that Hill and Mixon can post lousy numbers and we are concluding Hill stinks and needs to take a hike and Mixon is awesome but he's just severely limited by our line/scheme/etc.   As he pointed out, the more we see Mixon struggle, the more we may have to admit Hill's lousy (but not as lousy as Mixon's) YPC might not be all on him.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-21-2017, 10:55 AM)Wyche Wrote: For the last three weeks (the weeks that have seen the worst T.O.P. numbers), the opposition has had long, run the ball down our throats, opening drives/drives in the first quarter/half.  That has nothing to do with lousy offensive production.  The defense isn't gassed their first trip onto the field. Both units are not very good, is the reality.  The defense CANNOT stop the run, we CANNOT run the ball.  Maybe Minter was a bigger asset than some realize.

100% this. The offense is doing the defense no favors, but the defense can't get off the field (even early in games) and is near bottom in turnovers forced, both of which are causing fewer possessions for the offense. I can't think of the right word, but they're both having a negative affect on each other that has kind of snowballed. 

(11-21-2017, 12:11 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: If we throw out the 31 points scored against Cleveland, the Cincinnati offense is putting up a putrid 13.67 points per game.  I originally thought it was 15.33 points per game until I factored in two touchdowns scored by the defense:  William Jackson III and Carlos Dunlap.

If we throw out the first 2 games under Zampese, we're averaging 18.3 points per game (with the defensive TDs subtracted).

(11-21-2017, 12:38 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I think the defense has been pretty decent overall, but they've given up 114 of their 199 point in the first two quarters.

Maybe they're more worn down in the 1st half. 

It's almost as if the offense isn't completely to blame for the defensive performance. 

(11-21-2017, 03:02 PM)bengalsturntup5532 Wrote: Well it's a offensive league now,the rules are just set up for offenses to score. Let's go back to the Bengals division game 2005. You would say the Steelers had a good defense wouldn't you? They couldn't stop our offense from scoring. And we couldn't atop them until the 3rd drive

We played 2 games against the Steelers. In the other game, they held us to 13 points and Palmer to a 53.8 passer rating. So it's a little inaccurate to say they couldn't stop our offense.

(11-21-2017, 03:21 PM)3wt Wrote: This

I'm tired of hearing how our defense is good till it gets gassed.   They are not playing well when they're fresh.  The line gets pushed around and taken out of their gaps and almost no one can tackle.   It's embarrassing to watch.

And I have to agree with Bfine on Mixon.   I think he's way overrated.  He can get around the edge for a big guy, but I think his vision is really poor.  Should have taken Cook... or an offensive lineman.

We don't seem to have a good long range assessment of talent.   There will be a number of good backs in this draft - and folks have been talking about them since game 1.

Visions of what? Defensive linemen dancing in the backfield?

[bengals67]

the o line is the number one problem with this team with nothing else coming in at a close second.

D on the field way too much.

The club management almost willfully threw away the season by letting Whit and Zeitler walk away from an average to below average o line in 2016 and then not drafting any competition for Bodine or tackles and not signing any free agents.

The results of the season were very predictable back no later then immediately after the 2017 draft.

Bengals management completely wasted a year out of the careers of quality players like Dalton, AJ Green, Mixon, and Gio because of their grossly negligent  building of the 2017 o line.

They also completely wasted the 2017 first round draft pick instead of selecting a quality o lineman or someone else who could have played this year as a difference maker.

[*PhilHos*]

Just goes to show the effect a bad oline can have on an entire team!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-21-2017, 03:21 PM)3wt Wrote: This

I'm tired of hearing how our defense is good till it gets gassed.   They are not playing well when they're fresh.  The line gets pushed around and taken out of their gaps and almost no one can tackle.   It's embarrassing to watch.

And I have to agree with Bfine on Mixon.   I think he's way overrated.  He can get around the edge for a big guy, but I think his vision is really poor.  Should have taken Cook... or an offensive lineman.

We don't seem to have a good long range assessment of talent.   There will be a number of good backs in this draft - and folks have been talking about them since game 1.

This was sure as hell my wishlist.  OL in the first, Cook in the 2nd.  Cook was better behind a shitty line to begin with, and didn't have Perine to take some of the load off him.

As to the rest of the post, spot on.

[kevin]

(11-21-2017, 07:27 AM)Beaker Wrote: People keep bashing the offense for the Bengals problems. And due to problems on the O lone, the offense has definitely not performed up to expectations coming into this season. But to me, the Bengals D is just as culpable for the Bengals current record. We keep hearing about how the Bengals have a top ten D, and that may be the case according to stats.

But our "terrible" offense scored enough points in GB and TEN to win those games. It was our "good" defense that did not finish those games. They gave up 2 last minute game winning drives in those games. If our D had come through in those 2 games the Bengals would be sitting at 6-4 and in the #5 spot for the playoffs right now.

NO, and here is where you are wrong.....The Bengals offensive line has really sucked this year.   Now if you argue that, I'm talking to a wall and wasting my time. ....Bengals do have one of best defenses in NFL over last 2 years, and I'm going on points allowed by D.  Last 2 years you have Pittsburg, Minnesota, New England D is on a roll after bad start and Bengals last 2 years have been a good D in 2016 and 2017. ....You also are forgetting the defense has been scoring touchdowns or setting up points.  If you take away the points Bengals D is scoring or setting up, Bengals are 0-10 like the Browns.  You take the D points away against Denver and you have the TD pass to Green and some field goals and Bengals LOSE.   Same with these other games you mentioned. 

So you want to go pretzel logic and say the defense is the reason we aren't above .500 and marching to play-offs.   You are wrong.  I have to say it, you are dead wrong.  If Bengals beat Browns, the ONLY chance they have of beating Steelers is because of our good defense.  Nobody is going to shut out Steelers, they will get their points.  If our very good defense can keep the points in 20's and not 30's or 40's, and if our offensive line doesn't suck every play.  If we could get enough blocking to put some offensive points on board.   Steelers have great defense and great offense.  You better be glad we do have the good defense because it is Bengals only hope of upsetting Steelers and getting to 6-6. 

I bash the O Line and Mike Brown because the O Line stinks.  I do not bash the defense because we have a very good defense.   Of course, in games where we punt, punt, punt, our D is on the field too much.  The Bengals score almost no second half points all season. You would blame our defense in the second half, but I blame how lousy our offense has been all year in the second half.  The worst second half offense in the NFL, due to no blocking.  What do you expect when Bengals punt all second half all season long and our defense is stuck on the field all second half all season long.  It shows they are a good defense because a lesser defense would be giving up a ton of points, and the Bengals D isn't giving up many points in spite of no help from offense. They have kept the scores low enough to win, but the offense stinks with no blocking.  

[The Caped Crusader]

Ironically, I'd consider blocking and tackling to be fundamentals of Football. Both require technique, patience, and work ethic to become best of the best. You can really see it the most in the team's tackling ability. I was always told trying to tackle with your arms was lazy tackling, and well, because it is. That's also in High School and College...NFL? You have Marshawn Lynch, LeVeon Bell, etc...Work horses, giant men that can shed it.

Next game, perhaps not Cleveland's game (I'm sure they will make me eat my words). Watch the initial attack of Cleveland's run, against our defense and our INABILITY to tackle. Most of the time I will give us credit and say initial hits are at the line of scrimmage, or a yard down. Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. We lack proper form, execution and heart (Football's long, incalculable attribute) to make tackles. It was seen all through the Broncos game, with initial hits in the back field becoming multi-yard gains.


Blocking is a slightly different story. All too often our linemen are confused with stunts, primarily ones that require pressuring gaps. Bodine lacks adjustment, Hopkins and Boling don't see it, and it causes the pocket to absolutely collapse. You  see this in passing downs(third and longs), especially when Dalton is waiting for routes to develop...he simply can't(Broncos game when he misses AJ on that long developing post route).

The same goes with run blocking. Different story, but we still lack awareness when hitting holes. You'll see immediate gap penetration because nobody is picking up their man, or simply getting beat silly. A lot of this can be because A, our scheme is ridiculously SIMPLE (Defenses we have played have stated that they can easily identify what we are doing) and B, we aren't getting push on the line of scrimmage.

And this is why I constantly do everything I can to avoid negativity towards Andy Dalton. The offensive line is the pinnacle to an offense. Remove AJ Green. Remove Mixon/Hill/Bernard. Remove John Ross. None of that matters if you cannot establish the trenches, and we fail to do that week in and week out.

These are the TWO biggest issues with our team.

[The Caped Crusader]

(11-22-2017, 01:45 AM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Ironically, I'd consider blocking and tackling to be fundamentals of Football. Both require technique, patience, and work ethic to become best of the best. You can really see it the most in the team's tackling ability. I was always told trying to tackle with your arms was lazy tackling, and well, because it is. That's also in High School and College...NFL? You have Marshawn Lynch, LeVeon Bell, etc...Work horses, giant men that can shed it.

Next game, perhaps not Cleveland's game (I'm sure they will make me eat my words). Watch the initial attack of Cleveland's run, against our defense and our INABILITY to tackle. Most of the time I will give us credit and say initial hits are at the line of scrimmage, or a yard down. Unfortunately, it doesn't end there. We lack proper form, execution and heart (Football's long, incalculable attribute) to make tackles. It was seen all through the Broncos game, with initial hits in the back field becoming multi-yard gains.


Blocking is a slightly different story. All too often our linemen are confused with stunts, primarily ones that require pressuring gaps. Bodine lacks adjustment, Hopkins and Boling don't see it, and it causes the pocket to absolutely collapse. You  see this in passing downs(third and longs), especially when Dalton is waiting for routes to develop...he simply can't(Broncos game when he misses AJ on that long developing post route).

The same goes with run blocking. Different story, but we still lack awareness when hitting holes. You'll see immediate gap penetration because nobody is picking up their man, or simply getting beat silly. A lot of this can be because A, our scheme is ridiculously SIMPLE (Defenses we have played have stated that they can easily identify what we are doing) and B, we aren't getting push on the line of scrimmage.

And this is why I constantly do everything I can to avoid negativity towards Andy Dalton. The offensive line is the pinnacle to an offense. Remove AJ Green. Remove Mixon/Hill/Bernard. Remove John Ross. None of that matters if you cannot establish the trenches, and we fail to do that week in and week out.

These are the TWO biggest issues with our team.

Updated post for having quite a few errors. I do apologize.

[Utts]

The Offense 29th out of 32 in points per game.

The Offense is 31st out of 32 in time of possesion.

The Defense is 10th out of 32 in points allowed.

Offense bashers, continue bashing.

[Beaker]

I get frustrated watching our D when facing 3rd down and 7 or more yards. That is a situation that should favor the D. But the Bengals will consistently rush four, and drop the LBs back beyond the line to gain for a first down. I am assuming the philosophy is to keep the play in front of you and make the tackle before the 1st down marker. But other teams are eating us up, and all seem to know we do this.

That 10 yard patch of open space between the Lbs and the D line allows teams to throw a 7 yard cross, and then it turns into who closes the 3 yard gap faster....the offensive player or the D. The answer is the offensive player more times than not. They know where they are going the instant they catch the ball. The D player has to determine the direction, and in that millisecond difference, the advantage has gone to the offensive player to make the first down. Combine that with missed tackles and you have other teams converting third and longs on us consistently.

Next game watch how many times the Bengals D plays third and longs this way. You can bet if I notice it, then OCs that face us certainly do also and gameplan for it. Its very frustrating, and contributes heavily, I think, to adding to opposing offense's TOP.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-22-2017, 10:37 AM)Beaker Wrote: I get frustrated watching our D when facing 3rd down and 7 or more yards. That is a situation that should favor the D. But the Bengals will consistently rush four, and drop the LBs back beyond the line to gain for a first down. I am assuming the philosophy is to keep the play in front of you and make the tackle before the 1st down marker. But other teams are eating us up, and all seem to know we do this.

That 10 yard patch of open space between the Lbs and the D line allows teams to throw a 7 yard cross, and then it turns into who closes the 3 yard gap faster....the offensive player or the D. The answer is the offensive player more times than not. They know where they are going the instant they catch the ball. The D player has to determine the direction, and in that millisecond difference, the advantage has gone to the offensive player to make the first down. Combine that with missed tackles and you have other teams converting third and longs on us consistently.

Next game watch how many times the Bengals D plays third and longs this way. You can bet if I notice it, then OCs that face us certainly do also and gameplan for it. Its very frustrating, and contributes heavily, I think, to adding to opposing offense's TOP.

Agreed.....as has been noted numerous times....you can solely blame the offense, IF the defense could get off the field in the first half.  I mean, we're seeing teams with opening drives approaching 10 minutes.  I fail to see how that is on the offense.

As I said earlier in the thread, both units are subpar.

[sonofstat]

(11-21-2017, 11:33 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Man our scoring defense rank has plummeted. We were Top 5 earlier in the year.

Our pts allowed per game is 11th best in the league so its tailed off certainly but still nowhere near scraping the barrel like our scoring/pts on offense.

Agree with many that have posted about the lack of aggression in certain situations and the playing soft in coverage.  

We have some real good pass rushers in rotation now and 4 rd 1 CBs...I think we can afford to take a few more risks on 3rd down with that combination to get off the field

[Millhouse]

If the defense was on the same level of suckyness as the offense, they would be 0-10 right now.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-21-2017, 10:55 AM)Wyche Wrote: For the last three weeks (the weeks that have seen the worst T.O.P. numbers), the opposition has had long, run the ball down our throats, opening drives/drives in the first quarter/half.  That has nothing to do with lousy offensive production.  The defense isn't gassed their first trip onto the field. Both units are not very good, is the reality.  The defense CANNOT stop the run, we CANNOT run the ball.  Maybe Minter was a bigger asset than some realize.

And what does the coaching staff do in response?  Wait!  Too much paperwork to change the approach in the middle of the season!!!  Damnit!  We have to keep rolling MJ out there at RDE and put guys like Willis on the bench.  Willis defiantly blocked a punt, and we will NOT LET HIM MAKE PLAYS AND RUN UP HIS NEXT CONTRACT.  If he keeps it up, we will create an injury to keep his play-making ass off the field.

Don't let Ross get more than one target in his rookie season, or he just might break one and take it to the house!  We have seen what an amazing difference Tyreek Hill made in KC...we simply can't allow that to happen here, especially since our HC wanted the LB from Bama.

The defense CAN stop the run.  The offense CAN run block.  The problem is they don't have the WANT TO in any way, shape or form.  They have zero energy and a horrible scheme that demotivates even the most passionate players.  Back off, don't give up a big play on defense.  Slide blocking schemes that don't have a prayer of creating a crease.

Man up and CONTEST every pass.  Stack the line and play man coverage.  You have four GD first round picks at CB!  Your safeties suck ass in pass defense anyways.  Get them up to the line and start hitting some people.  

On offense, line up and HIT PEOPLE.  They showed they can do that in the shadow of their own end zone against a 10 man front!  Never saw it again, even in short yardage.  

For the love of God, can anyone on this coaching staff grow some F'n balls and play this game like men?