Bengals want miracle man on sidelines- Optimism of candidates belies negativity surro

[THE PISTONS]

2 Counters to that:
1) Had the Steelers let DeCastro get to free agency, he likely gets $12+ million. They extended him 1st. Note an extension is signed BEFORE a guy hits free agency. That seems to be something you're not understanding. The Bengals reportedly offerred Zeitler $5.5 million a year for an extension. Had they offerred $8-9 million maybe he signs? THe $10 million DeCastro got was the ceiling on what an extension would have costed. I doubt that Zeitler had some fantasy to play for the 1-15 Browns.

2) Ok. So Zeitler leaves. What stops the Bengals from signing a free agent Guard? Instead they signed Andre Smith a career RT to play Guard.

Regardless, we have a historically bad offensive line. We're averaging 60-some yards rushing a game. You can defend the Bengals strategy all you want...but it yielded a TERRIBLE offensive line.

It's not like they let Zeitler go and then spend that money on other upgrades.

[t3r3e3]

(11-25-2017, 12:24 PM)Synric Wrote: That's why there is 3 all star games. The Combine, and prodays. Remember every teams sends coaches to not just thr Bengals. Lol the real difference I've seen between large and small departments is how many guys are at each prodays while the Bengals will send 2 other teams will have 4 or 5.

To me it's more important how good your scouts are not how many. Quality over Quantity.

A small scouting dept puts a team at a severe disadvantage over larger groups. It limits the amount of times a team can check on prospects, and limits coverage for any given region. The team can’t compile as much information on prospects as other teams. Also, it limits the coaches from implementing weekly gameplans if they’re also reviewing scouting tape or going to watch prospects. The bottom line is the Bengals put themselves at a significant disadvantage by running a threadbare scouting department. Scouts are relatively cheap. Problem is, MikeBrown is cheaper.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-25-2017, 08:05 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: A small scouting dept puts a team at a severe disadvantage over larger groups.  It limits the amount of times a team can check on prospects, and limits coverage for any given region.  The team can’t compile as much information on prospects as other teams.  Also, it limits the coaches from implementing weekly gameplans if they’re also reviewing scouting tape or going to watch prospects.  The bottom line is the Bengals put themselves at a significant disadvantage by running a threadbare scouting department.  Scouts are relatively cheap.  Problem is, MikeBrown is cheaper.

We all know that. Synric seems to have some sort of agenda to defend Bengals Management.

How anyone could defend the management practices of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years is beyond me.

[*Synric*]

(11-25-2017, 07:47 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: 2 Counters to that:
1) Had the Steelers let DeCastro get to free agency, he likely gets $12+ million.  They extended him 1st. Note an extension is signed BEFORE a guy hits free agency. That seems to be something you're not understanding. The Bengals reportedly offerred Zeitler $5.5 million a year for an extension. Had they offerred $8-9 million maybe he signs? THe $10 million DeCastro got was the ceiling on what an extension would have costed. I doubt that Zeitler had some fantasy to play for the 1-15 Browns.

2) Ok. So Zeitler leaves. What stops the Bengals from signing a free agent Guard? Instead they signed Andre Smith a career RT to play Guard.

Regardless, we have a historically bad offensive line. We're averaging 60-some yards rushing a game. You can defend the Bengals strategy all you want...but it yielded a TERRIBLE offensive line.

It's not like they let Zeitler go and then spend that money on other upgrades.

Guards and tackles which position every week in the NFL its thr most common position change.

I'm not arguing that the line isn't bad it's as you say historically bad but that doesn't change the fact that Zeilter was not worth the Highest Paid Guard In NFL History.


I seriously don't know how to take the Whitworth situation. The Bengals were saying he was gonna resign... Whitworth was saying he was gonna likely resign all the way up until free agency opens then bam he's a Ram. 

What happened there?

 It's my opinion with no proof that Whit screwed them because they drafted two tackles and then only gave him a one year extention shortly after saying these guys are these he future.


As for the reportedly offered 5.5. I read your word for word quote and it. The way it's worded it sounded like Lapham was pulling numbers out of his ass to make a point. I'd say it was closer to 8.5 to 9 Zeilter and his agent was saying hey we can make 11 or 12. 

In the End it's about the offer the Browns gave him. Should the Bengals matched it and made him the highest guard in NFL History. In my humble opinion no. Even with the line as bad as it is still No.

[*Synric*]

(11-25-2017, 08:09 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We all know that. Synric seems to have some sort of agenda to defend Bengals Management.

How anyone could defend the management practices of a team that hasn't won a playoff game in 26+ years is beyond me.

No. 

As I've said alot I think the biggest issue over the last few years is the countless bad picks on the defensive front seven. The awful scouting for the offensive and defensive lines. (New Dline coach helped in this area). Riding Eric Winston and TJ Johnson as thr backups for multiple years instead of bringing in anyone ray COULD develop.

But hey I have original thoughts....not what I can quote from Hobspin and PFF...

[THE PISTONS]

(11-25-2017, 08:10 PM)Synric Wrote: Guards and tackles which position every week in the NFL its thr most common position change.

I'm not arguing that the line isn't bad it's as you say historically bad but that doesn't change the fact that Zeilter was not worth the Highest Paid Guard In NFL History.


I seriously don't know how to take the Whitworth situation. The Bengals were saying he was gonna resign... Whitworth was saying he was gonna likely resign all the way up until free agency opens then bam he's a Ram. 

What happened there?

 It's my opinion with no proof that Whit screwed them because they drafted two tackles and then only gave him a one year extention shortly after saying these guys are these he future.


As for the reportedly offered 5.5. I read your word for word quote and it. The way it's worded it sounded like Lapham was pulling numbers out of his ass to make a point. I'd say it was closer to 8.5 to 9 Zeilter and his agent was saying hey we can make 11 or 12. 

In the End it's about the offer the Browns gave him. Should the Bengals matched it and made him the highest guard in NFL History. In my humble opinion no. Even with the line as bad as it is still No.

You seem locked in on the Browns offer in free agency and won't acknowledge that the Bengals could have worked out an extension BEFORE he hit free agency...like the Steelers did with DeCastro. DeCastro's $10 million would have likely been the ceiling on what he would have wanted.

Had the Steelers allowed DeCastro to get to free agency, don't you think he gets more than $10 million?

When you allow players to hit free agency, all bets are off.

[*Synric*]

(11-25-2017, 08:19 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You seem locked in on the Browns offer in free agency and won't acknowledge that the Bengals could have worked out an extension BEFORE he hit free agency...like the Steelers did with DeCastro. DeCastro's $10 million would have likely been the ceiling on what he would have wanted.

Had the Steelers allowed DeCastro to get to free agency, don't you think he gets more than $10 million?

When you allow players to hit free agency, all bets are off.

 

And I repeat. They probably did offer him around 8.5 to 9. (I know I know 5.5 or he could have made 9 8 7 mil lol. Notice none of those numbers are close to what DeCastro and Osomele are making.)

Zeilter and his agent bet he could make well over 10 mil in free agency and he became the Highest Paid Guard in NFL History...and I don't think he's as good as DeCastro or Osomele.

Osomele? or Osemele?




Edit: As for outside free agents small market teams will always been in the review because of simple things like Endorsments....and Jersey Sales. Did you know Players make 2/3rds of thr money from Jersey sales? THAT'S HUGE!!

[THE PISTONS]

(11-25-2017, 08:26 PM)Synric Wrote:  

And I repeat. They probably did offer him around 8.5 to 9. (I know I know 5.5 or he could have made 9 8 7 mil lol. Notice none of those numbers are close to what DeCastro and Osomele are making.)

Zeilter and his agent bet he could make well over 10 mil in free agency and he became the Highest Paid Guard in NFL History...and I don't think he's as good as DeCastro or Osomele.

Osomele? or Osemele?




Edit: As for outside free agents small market teams will always been in the review because of simple things like Endorsments....and Jersey Sales. Did you know Players make 2/3rds of thr money from Jersey sales? THAT'S HUGE!!

There is absolutely ZERO evidence that the Bengals could have even offered him $8.5 to 9 million. That's a total fabrication by you.

And when the lost Zeitler...why didn't they go sign a free agent Guard with that money?

[*Synric*]

(11-25-2017, 09:42 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There is absolutely ZERO evidence that the Bengals could have even offered him $8.5 to 9 million. That's a total fabrication by you.

And when the lost Zeitler...why didn't they go sign a free agent Guard with that money?

Yea they offered him less money than Clint Boiling... 



Ok then you think they should have signed Zeitler for 10 million and Whitworth for what? 10 million?

That's 7 million over the salary cap.

I'm sure your next argument is that they shouldn't have signed Dre Kirk, but he earned his deal over the last two seasons.

Next you will say they should have cut Pacman and Johnson both who's dead cap would put them over the cap.

They could have had one not both.

 You argue that they shouldn't have spent money on Andre Smith...Where would they be right now...Eric Winston at right tackle.

I've said a couple dozen times I agree they should have made depth moves on the interior line over the last couple seasons and that hurt them.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-25-2017, 10:10 PM)Synric Wrote: Yea they offered him less money than Clint Boiling... 



Ok then you think they should have signed Zeitler for 10 million and Whitworth for what? 10 million?

That's 7 million over the salary cap.

I'm sure your next argument is that they shouldn't have signed Dre Kirk, but he earned his deal over the last two seasons.

Next you will say they should have cut Pacman and Johnson both who's dead cap would put them over the cap.

They could have had one not both.

 You argue that they shouldn't have spent money on Andre Smith...Where would they be right now...Eric Winston at right tackle.

I've said a couple dozen times I agree they should have made depth moves on the interior line over the last couple seasons and that hurt them.

Actually Lapham's quote would be right inline with what Clint Boling makes...

And last time I checked they didn't sign Whitworth.

Signing Zeitler for $10 million wouldn't put us over the cap. We had some $21 million of cap space in free agency at that time. We spent $3 million on Andre Smith.

Even after signing Smith and extending Burfict we had space for Zeitler.

Plus, there were other free agents out there we could have signed.

The Bengals don't need depth moves...they need starters on the offensive line.

[THE PISTONS]

With our epically bad offensive line, it's amazing that you're in the they should have let Zeitler leave camp. Especially after seeing that they didn't spend that money elsewhere.

Some people will defend the Bengals Management no matter what though. Shakes my head.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-25-2017, 11:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: With our epically bad offensive line, it's amazing that you're in the they should have let Zeitler leave camp. Especially after seeing that they didn't spend that money elsewhere.

Some people will defend the Bengals Management no matter what though. Shakes my head.

Unfortunately true — but the Bengals’ offensive line wasn’t so hot with Whitworth and Zeitler in 2016. Mike Brown should know better than to pay “blockers” cheaply.

[yippierb]

(11-26-2017, 12:50 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Unfortunately true — but the Bengals’ offensive line wasn’t so hot with Whitworth and Zeitler in 2016.  Mike Brown should know better than to pay “blockers” cheaply.

The problem for two decades now has (primarily) been the coaching. The entire league now has this problem (except for the Pats). We just led the way.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-25-2017, 01:31 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...the we were bad WITH those guys last year excuse doesn't fly because they were our 2 best lineman. You let them go and you get worse...and 2 quality players more away.

Zeitler may not be great for the Browns...but in our system he was good.

The Steelers paid DeCastro $10 million. They still managed to:

Franchise Bell
Extend Brown
Extend Tuitt
Extennd Villaneuva
Sign Haden

WITH LESS CAP SPACE THAN US.

Paying a Guard $10 million this year is the equivalent of paying them about $7.5 million a year in 2012 as the cap rises by about $10 million a year.

Disagree.  If you start paying average players like Zeitler top tier money, you will not be able to extend the likes of Eifert, Burfict, Green, Dalton, etc.  Zeitler was not a core piece, plain and simple.  And I don't understand why you think the fact that they were bad with him isn't valid?

Don't use the steeler's money as a model.  They will have real issues very shortly with the likes of Shazier and their offensive line.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(11-26-2017, 11:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Disagree.  If you start paying average players like Zeitler top tier money, you will not be able to extend the likes of Eifert, Burfict, Green, Dalton, etc.  Zeitler was not a core piece, plain and simple.  And I don't understand why you think the fact that they were bad with him isn't valid?

Don't use the steeler's money as a model.  They will have real issues very shortly with the likes of Shazier and their offensive line.  

How many times has that been said, only to have it not be an issue when the time comes?

Very annoying. 

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2017, 01:59 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How many times has that been said, only to have it not be an issue when the time comes?

Very annoying. 

Yeah...people have been saying the Steelers would have 'cap issues' for years. It never seems to happen.

Meanwhile, we usually have tens of millions of dollars of cap space and NO PLAYOFF WINS in 26+ years. I believe the Steelers have won something like 19 playoff games since we last won 1.

And in the last 2 years we've lost: Nelson, Jones, Sanu, Whitworth, Hall, Zeitler, Burkhead, Peko, and Dansby in free agency.

Which team really has the cap issues? 

[Beaker]

(11-26-2017, 06:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: And in the last 2 years we've lost: Nelson, Jones, Sanu, Whitworth, Hall, Zeitler, Burkhead, Peko, and Dansby in free agency.

Hall, Peko and Dansby were not losses.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-26-2017, 06:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yeah...people have been saying the Steelers would have 'cap issues' for years. It never seems to happen.

Meanwhile, we usually have tens of millions of dollars of cap space and NO PLAYOFF WINS in 26+ years. I believe the Steelers have won something like 19 playoff games since we last won 1.

And in the last 2 years we've lost: Nelson, Jones, Sanu, Whitworth, Hall, Zeitler, Burkhead, Peko, and Dansby in free agency.

Which team really has the cap issues? 

There are clearly two very distinct camps right now:  Those that believe the roster is more than capable of winning it all but are severely hampered by a pathetic coaching staff, and those that believe the players are the issue.  I am in the former.  

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2017, 11:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Disagree.  If you start paying average players like Zeitler top tier money, you will not be able to extend the likes of Eifert, Burfict, Green, Dalton, etc.  Zeitler was not a core piece, plain and simple.  And I don't understand why you think the fact that they were bad with him isn't valid?

Don't use the steeler's money as a model.  They will have real issues very shortly with the likes of Shazier and their offensive line.  

You're focused on $12 million a year that he got from the Browns. What if we could have extended him for $9-10 million?

Zeitler isn't an average player. He gave up very few sacks here and was a good run blocker.

With the Browns he looks average...but here he was Above Average to Good.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-27-2017, 09:38 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: There are clearly two very distinct camps right now:  Those that believe the roster is more than capable of winning it all but are severely hampered by a pathetic coaching staff, and those that believe the players are the issue.  I am in the former.  

Yeah. Basically.

What if there was a 3rd camp that believes it's a little of both?

Look how many other coaches failed here under the same management structure. Lets face it, this team is tough to win with for a Coach.

How good would we look with a Center like Sullivan that signed for $1 million with the Rams and maybe another capable free agent Guard?