Bengals want miracle man on sidelines- Optimism of candidates belies negativity surro

[*Synric*]

(11-25-2017, 11:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: With our epically bad offensive line, it's amazing that you're in the they should have let Zeitler leave camp. Especially after seeing that they didn't spend that money elsewhere.

Some people will defend the Bengals Management no matter what though. Shakes my head.

Hate to bump an argument but I havent had time to respond properly until now lol

You are mistaken I am not defending the Management I just disagree with the Zeitler extension. 

You are saying you and everyone predicted that the Offensive Line was going to go bad BEFORE the 2016 season and nothing could be further from the truth. I can go back and pull up posts here or google talking head articles that support this...

The Bengals were coming off their best regular season in Bengal History. During that season they had one of the best and deepest offensive lines in the NFL. During the 2016 offseason the Bengals allowed Andre Smith to leave as they had not one but two highly drafted young tackles that had not seen the field. They had a young Center while having a fairly AVERAGE season he improved alot from his rookie year. Clint Boling was under contract and had the LG spot locked down. The Bengals drafted a guard in the 5th round that was considered someone that slid (Westerman) and had a young undrafted free agent they were excited about (Hopkins).

It really looked like the Offensive line had a decent future....BEFORE the 2016 season. At this same time they had Dre Kirk who after starting slow in 2015 really came on, one of the best linebackers in football, and a TE that looked like he was going to become one of the premiere players in the NFL. (Dont jump ahead.) All these guys were in line for HUGE contracts.

At this point Im sure they did try to lowball Zeitler it would have been the smart move. (You are arguing it was 5.5 mil. I saying it was probably closer to 8.5 to 9m either way thats a Lowball considering what he would make in FA.) They were not going to give Zeitler a huge contract at this point because they felt secure with their offensive line....So did everyone else LoL.

What moves do I say the FO did poorly? 

They completely dissed Andrew Whitworth. Whit was the best tackle in football in 2015 he had set a record for most snaps not giving up a sack while moving people in the run game. The Knee injury from a few years back was a complete non factor...Not only was Whit a great tackle he WAS the Cincinnati Bengals. Whit was the leader on and off the field he was a great locker room guy but also let teammates into his home when they needed a place to stay. Whit was the Bengals rep for all the leagues organizations. How could the Bengals FO not offer this man an extension is beyond me...even with 2 tackles waiting in the wings.

As for Zampese while he was a mistake I say it was an honest one. Zamp developed two decent QBs in Carson and Andy. He also studied under 3 completely different OC in Hue, Gruden, and Brat. He was in line for a shot at OC somewhere.

The 2016 season happens... Zampese looks awful, BOTH young tackles play poorly, and Eifert goes through back surgery. Enter the offseason both Whit and Zeilter are hitting FA no matter what. Zeilter gets paid the most of any guard in nfl history. Whit signs a huge contract from the Rams a 3year deal where he gets 1/3rd of it as a bonus and another bonus if he makes it all 3 years...

Now its WHY didnt they attack free agency and get this guy or that guy. For this we have to realize the Bengals are one of the hardest teams to sign free agents to because they are a small market team. It is not an excuse so much extra stuff goes into these us fans never consider. Lets look at Whitworth he signed for the Rams hes also currently heavily involved with Jay Glazers gym and he has a new market for Jersey sales (which a huge chunk goes to the player).

As for why they didnt draft any offensive lineman in 2017 draft. I dont know but I do have to say look at the defensive line talent and how well they are playing across the league. In 2018 the first priority likely wouldnt be a guard or a tackle but rather a center considering Bodine isnt under contract and has dropped off big time since that average 2015 season. 

To Recap Im saying its easy to look back and say we could see the line going bad right here but in truth thats with knowledge after the fact. When Whit and Zeilter were up for extensions prior to the 2016 season the Bengals, the talk heads, us Fans considered the offensive line a deep position.

Journey before Destination.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-21-2017, 02:50 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I know people dislike Marvin, but this is where we came from. Now we're hearing rumblings trickle out from Willie Anderson that coaches may have a lot of Administrative Tasks to do. This article is from 2003.

By Mark Curnutte
The Cincinnati Enquirer
PITTSBURGH - The last three Bengals coaches could not produce one winning record in 12 seasons. That begs the questions: Can the next Bengals coach win? And does it matter who coaches the team as long as he answers to the same front office that is ultimately responsible for a 55-137 record since the start of the 1991 season?

Years of media analysis, both local and national, point to two major obstacles a Bengals coach faces - the league's smallest player personnel department, which forces assistant coaches to scout, and a negative attitude that has grown more oppressive with each passing season.

Several agents and players have said the Bengals do not have the best reputation in the league. Despite paying huge contracts to players such as Corey Dillon, Willie Anderson and Brian Simmons, the Bengals are still considered penny-pinchers by many agents and their clients. As a result, the Bengals have been unable to attract more than one or two A-list free agents (Lorenzo Neal, Tony Williams) the past few years.

What's clear in the week since Dick LeBeau was fired is there is no shortage of coaches who say they can both win and work productively with Mike Brown.
Former Jacksonville coach Tom Coughlin on Friday was the latest candidate to speak optimistically about the Bengals' immediate future.
The Bengals' head-coaching job is different than the other two that opened last week - Coughlin's former position with the Jaguars, and the Dallas Cowboys job that went to Bill Parcells.

Both of those organizations have made experienced NFL coaches their priority this time around. Parcells is a two-time Super Bowl winner, and he's going to work for Jerry Jones, an owner who will spend big to win. The name of former Vikings coach Dennis Green has re-emerged in Jacksonville, where the eight-year-old franchise spent way over the salary cap in a successful effort to win early.

But unless the Bengals hire Coughlin, the team's head-coaching job will go to a man with no previous NFL head-coaching experience for the fourth time in the last five hires. The exception was Bruce Coslet, the former Jets coach, who was promoted to replace the fired Dave Shula in 1996.

The Bengals' job has similarities to other NFL jobs. The trend in the league is away from the combination coach-general manager title. Seattle coach Mike Holmgren lost his general manager responsibilities last week. Jacksonville owner Wayne Weaver wants to hire a general manager and a coach to decentralize power. Coughlin had both titles with the Jaguars before his firing Monday. Even Parcells, a known control freak, did not get the GM title with the Cowboys.

Bengals president Mike Brown, who acts as the team's untitled general manager, said Monday after firing LeBeau that the team would not hire a general manager.
The thinking league-wide now is that coaching is demanding enough and can't be paired with time-consuming GM duties.

Coughlin was the third candidate to talk with the Bengals.

The first was Washington defensive coordinator Marvin Lewis, who interviewed Tuesday. He told people close to him that the Bengals situation is not as bad as advertised. Steelers offensive coordinator Mike Mularkey interviewed Saturday in Pittsburgh.

Lewis' reputation is that players want to work for him. He is considered one of the league's brightest defensive minds, and his hiring might help the Bengals retain free agent linebacker Takeo Spikes.

Mularkey has the same type of reputation as an offensive coach, and his creative use of former college quarterbacks Hines Ward and Antwaan Randle El conjures ideas of what he could do with bench-warming quarterback Akili Smith.

All three coaches are considered strong candidates, but doubt persists nationally that even they could win in Cincinnati.

If the Bengals hire one of the three outside candidates - Lewis, Coughlin or Mularkey - the new coach will have to adjust to a comparatively downsized scouting department.
"The odds are against any coach winning there unless a bigger effort is made in the scouting department," said John Clayton, of ESPN.com and ESPN Magazine. "The Bengals concede five months - August, September, October, November and December - to the rest of the league."

The Bengals do not scout college players as heavily as most other NFL teams. They have just four full-time "scouts" in their personnel department - and two of them are Brown family members who spend much of their time in the office. The fifth person in the department is part-time consultant John Cooper, the former Ohio State coach.

"Other teams hit every school," Clayton said. "The Bengals get the (scouting) reports, but I get the reports, too. It's knowing the background information, the players' personalities, that make the difference in drafting."

The Bengals do visit schools during the season, but their scouts do not see as many games as scouts from other NFL teams.
"You need to make evaluations during games," Clayton said. "You're not scouting guys to workout."

Once the NFL season ends, Bengals assistants do make visits to colleges for player workout days. They also attend the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.
Washington has 13 people in their player personnel department. The Redskins have individual pro- and college-scouting directors, and their college scouts are assigned by region. Before joining the Redskins, Lewis was defensive coordinator in Baltimore, where the Ravens have 11 people in their personnel department.

Lewis was in Pittsburgh as linebackers coach before moving to Baltimore. The Steelers, for whom Mularkey is offensive coordinator, have 10 people in their personnel department - including seven scouts. Before Mularkey joined the Steelers, he was in Tampa Bay. The Buccaneers have 10 people in their player personnel department -- including one scout dedicated to coordinating the club's efforts at the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.

Coughlin comes from Jacksonville, where he helped to build an 11-man personnel department. The Jaguars have six full-time scouts, four supervisors and a scouting assistant.

One of the widely acclaimed scouting and personnel departments belongs to the Tennessee Titans. They have 11 people in scouting and personnel - including Director of Arena League Football Operations Pat Sperduto. Titans owner Bud Adams is owner of an expansion arena team which will start play in Nashville in 2004. It will serve as a farm club of sorts for the Titans.

Brown defends his scouting department and the team's personnel structure.

"We get the information on players. I think the information that we get is as good as every team's got," Brown said. "The record indicates that's the case. We have more players through the draft, more starters than any but one or two teams.

"That is what I call a theme. You guys (in the media) develop themes. They have legs of their own and they run for a while. I don't apologize for our scouting efforts. I think we do well in that department."

True, the Bengals do have a large number of their original draft picks on their current roster - including every first-round pick since 1996. However, since the start of the '96 season, the Bengals have a 34-78 record.

The task, though, is not insurmountable.

"Beyond the tangible problems - like the scouting department - you've got the intangible problems," said Howard Balzer, national NFL columnist for Sports Weekly and the SportsXchange. "You've got pro players who want to avoid the place. You've got college kids talking about wanting to play elsewhere."

It once was believed that no coach could win in Tampa Bay. But coach Tony Dungy and general manager Rich McKay changed the Buccaneers' reputation.
"Dungy gave them a fresh look, a fresh slate," Balzer said. "Somebody could come into Cincinnati and turn it around briefly, even if things (in the front office) don't change."
E-mail mcurnutte@enquirer.com

http://bengals.enquirer.com/2003/01/05/wwwben1a5.html

This excerpt in particular shows how hard it will be for any coach to win here:


If the Bengals hire one of the three outside candidates - Lewis, Coughlin or Mularkey - the new coach will have to adjust to a comparatively downsized scouting department.

"The odds are against any coach winning there unless a bigger effort is made in the scouting department," said John Clayton, of ESPN.com and ESPN Magazine. "The Bengals concede five months - August, September, October, November and December - to the rest of the league."

The Bengals do not scout college players as heavily as most other NFL teams. They have just four full-time "scouts" in their personnel department - and two of them are Brown family members who spend much of their time in the office. The fifth person in the department is part-time consultant John Cooper, the former Ohio State coach.

"Other teams hit every school," Clayton said. "The Bengals get the (scouting) reports, but I get the reports, too. It's knowing the background information, the players' personalities, that make the difference in drafting."

The Bengals do visit schools during the season, but their scouts do not see as many games as scouts from other NFL teams.
"You need to make evaluations during games," Clayton said. "You're not scouting guys to workout."

Once the NFL season ends, Bengals assistants do make visits to colleges for player workout days. They also attend the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.
Washington has 13 people in their player personnel department. The Redskins have individual pro- and college-scouting directors, and their college scouts are assigned by region. Before joining the Redskins, Lewis was defensive coordinator in Baltimore, where the Ravens have 11 people in their personnel department.

Lewis was in Pittsburgh as linebackers coach before moving to Baltimore. The Steelers, for whom Mularkey is offensive coordinator, have 10 people in their personnel department - including seven scouts. Before Mularkey joined the Steelers, he was in Tampa Bay. The Buccaneers have 10 people in their player personnel department -- including one scout dedicated to coordinating the club's efforts at the annual scouting combine in Indianapolis.

Coughlin comes from Jacksonville, where he helped to build an 11-man personnel department. The Jaguars have six full-time scouts, four supervisors and a scouting assistant.

One of the widely acclaimed scouting and personnel departments belongs to the Tennessee Titans. They have 11 people in scouting and personnel - including Director of Arena League Football Operations Pat Sperduto. Titans owner Bud Adams is owner of an expansion arena team which will start play in Nashville in 2004. It will serve as a farm club of sorts for the Titans.

[3wt]

(11-21-2017, 04:08 PM)Benton Wrote: To the bold, I'm probably not going to sway your opinion. So I'll just share others'.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/04/how_each_nfl_team_has_-_or_has.html


It's got a fairly nice listing of last year's draftees/starters versus winning percentage. Bengals have a good number of draftees and were above .500.  I'd put the winning percentage more on bad coaching than the 38 draftees on the roster, but I'm thinking you and I would disagree there.

From 2014:
https://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2014/05/01/which-nfl-teams-have-been-best-draft-lately/H5mBGyXErkXptvVPFzg9TM/story.html

There's other similar links, but the theme pretty much is that Cincinnati is one of the better drafting teams in terms of getting, and playing, draft picks. If you're looking at every draft coming up with 2 Pro Bowlers in the first couple years, you're going to find very, very few teams that measure up. 

I think it's like the Pats or Steelers with championships. We do pretty well at the draft, so when we have a down year (and the last couple have stunk, for sure), it's more noticeable. 


To the rest, no idea on what Willie says. I don't work in an NFL office, and I have no idea how to compare them. And I don't think it would've mattered either, but that's mainly because I've never been a fan of Hue. I think he's good with the players, but that's about it. Never was a fan of his play calling, or his use of talent.

A lot of good stuff here, but I object to the idea of evaluating the quality of a scouting department by the # of players still on the roster.

There are a lot of bad reasons players may still be on the roster, chiefly that there are other players on the roster even worse than them.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-11-2017, 02:34 PM)3wt Wrote: A lot of good stuff here, but I object to the idea of evaluating the quality of a scouting department by the # of players still on the roster.

There are a lot of bad reasons players may still be on the roster, chiefly that there are other players on the roster even worse than them.

Yeah...take for instance guys like Bodine that started since a rookie...but at a Poor level.

Any draft ratings that I've seen that takes into account where drafted and player performance have us ranked low.

[THE PISTONS]

The article in the main post talks about how the Bengals don't really scout heavily. They just get the scouting reports. You have to question if this is part of the issue as the players we draft don't seem to fit.

[THE PISTONS]

These were some blurbs BEFORE Marvin got hired:

"The odds are against any coach winning there unless a bigger effort is made in the scouting department," said John Clayton, of ESPN.com and ESPN Magazine. "The Bengals concede five months - August, September, October, November and December - to the rest of the league."

The Bengals do not scout college players as heavily as most other NFL teams. They have just four full-time "scouts" in their personnel department - and two of them are Brown family members who spend much of their time in the office. The fifth person in the department is part-time consultant John Cooper, the former Ohio State coach.

"Other teams hit every school," Clayton said. "The Bengals get the (scouting) reports, but I get the reports, too. It's knowing the background information, the players' personalities, that make the difference in drafting."

The Bengals do visit schools during the season, but their scouts do not see as many games as scouts from other NFL teams.
"You need to make evaluations during games," Clayton said. "You're not scouting guys to workout."

[fredtoast]

(03-05-2019, 11:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: These were some blurbs BEFORE Marvin got hired:

Damn.  I thought going back to 2017 so often was getting creepy.

Now you're taking it up another notch.

[THE PISTONS]

Well you know...articles from the 90's are still relevant as it's largely the same management team.

[THE PISTONS]

This is just as relevant today as it was years ago. Coughlin didn't know if he could win here without a gm.

Now that we break the bank on Bobby Hart...can Taylor win here?