New model - Jacksonville?

[*ochocincos*]

There's been a lot of doom and gloom on these boards for at least the past month or so, and I wanted to change the focus to something that might be more hopeful.

The purpose of this thread is to see if perhaps trying to imitate the Patriots and Steelers isn't the best option and instead maybe the Bengals should look at a more similar team who has gone from zero to hero - the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Jacksonville, like Cincinnati, doesn't have an elite QB. Most would say Bortles is actually worse than Dalton.
Their LT, like Cincinnati, has been terrible. Actually, Cam Robinson has been worse than Ogbuehi according to PFF (39.3 vs 40.3 rating).
They even lost their prized WR Allen Robinson to injury in the first game of the year.

Yet the Jags sit at 9-4 with a nice win over the beloved Seahawks.
How did they do it? The rushing attack and an aggressive, smothering defense.
They drafted an elite RB talent in Leonard Fournette. They have a highly rated Center and RT.
They have solid to dominant defensive players at nearly every spot. Most were drafted by Jacksonville but they brought in a few key FAs that really elevated them.
Calais Campbell, AJ Bouye, Barry Church all this year. Malik Jackson in 2016. And they traded for Marcell Dareus this year in the middle of the season.

This is the type of team the Bengals should look to mimic if they can't get an elite QB.
The Bengals have the running backs already in Mixon and Gio.
They have a dominant 3T with Atkins, and two good edge rushers in Dunlap and Lawson.
They look to have a budding star in William Jackson III. The light might finally be coming on for Darqueze Dennard too. Iloka and Williams are both solid, but both IMO are SS.
Burfict is a monster at LB when he's able to play.

So what do the Bengals need?
1) A head coach that emphasizes aggressiveness and attacking the LOS.
2) An offensive coordinator that makes this offense prioritize the rushing attack.
3) At least two dominant OL. Guards and Centers look to be strong in this upcoming draft. There are also a handful of OTs that could be good LTs but potentially elite RTs.
4) A 3-down LB. I believe this can come from FA in the form of Zach Brown or Preston Brown. There are also some quality players in the draft like Josey Jewell.
5) A true FS that is instinctual and can cause turnovers. The Bengals DBs don't cause enough of them. I believe this draft class has some good safety candidates.
6) 1-2 pass rushing threats, preferably a DT. The draft looks to have good pass-rushing DTs at the top of the draft, but not many mid-to-late round prospects to groom. If the Bengals go DT in the draft, they probably should do so on Day 1 or Day 2.

I believe that if done properly, all of the above can be accomplished within this coming offseason and the Bengals can compete again. Even moreso if McCarron and/or Dalton could be moved for additional early-round draft picks. However, at least one of the above needs will likely have to be acquired in FA because the Bengals only have so many early-round picks (expected four in Rds 1-3 unless trades happen).

Note - I did not list WR because I believe with LaFell gone and a staff that can properly assess and utilize John Ross, the Bengals receiving game will be improved. I also did not list TE because I believe the Bengals have adequate TE options for a run-focused offense much like the Jags.

What are your thoughts on this approach? Do you think the Bengals could morph into a run-first team and get back to competing once again?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-12-2017, 01:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: There's been a lot of doom and gloom on these boards for at least the past month or so, and I wanted to change the focus to something that might be more hopeful.

The purpose of this thread is to see if perhaps trying to imitate the Patriots and Steelers isn't the best option and instead maybe the Bengals should look at a more similar team who has gone from zero to hero - the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Jacksonville, like Cincinnati, doesn't have an elite QB. Most would say Bortles is actually worse than Dalton.
Their LT, like Cincinnati, has been terrible. Actually, Cam Robinson has been worse than Ogbuehi according to PFF (39.3 vs 40.3 rating).
They even lost their prized WR Allen Robinson to injury in the first game of the year.

Yet the Jags sit at 9-4 with a nice win over the beloved Seahawks.
How did they do it? The rushing attack and an aggressive, smothering defense.
They drafted an elite RB talent in Leonard Fournette. They have a highly rated Center and RT.
They have solid to dominant defensive players at nearly every spot. Most were drafted by Jacksonville but they brought in a few key FAs that really elevated them.
Calais Campbell, AJ Bouye, Barry Church all this year. Malik Jackson in 2016. And they traded for Marcell Dareus this year in the middle of the season.

This is the type of team the Bengals should look to mimic if they can't get an elite QB.
The Bengals have the running backs already in Mixon and Gio.
They have a dominant 3T with Atkins, and two good edge rushers in Dunlap and Lawson.
They look to have a budding star in William Jackson III. The light might finally be coming on for Darqueze Dennard too. Iloka and Williams are both solid, but both IMO are SS.
Burfict is a monster at LB when he's able to play.

So what do the Bengals need?
1) A head coach that emphasizes aggressiveness and attacking the LOS.
2) An offensive coordinator that makes this offense prioritize the rushing attack.
3) At least two dominant OL. Guards and Centers look to be strong in this upcoming draft. There are also a handful of OTs that could be good LTs but potentially elite RTs.
4) A 3-down LB. I believe this can come from FA in the form of Zach Brown or Preston Brown. There are also some quality players in the draft like Josey Jewell.
5) A true FS that is instinctual and can cause turnovers. The Bengals DBs don't cause enough of them. I believe this draft class has some good safety candidates.
6) 1-2 pass rushing threats, preferably a DT. The draft looks to have good pass-rushing DTs at the top of the draft, but not many mid-to-late round prospects to groom. If the Bengals go DT in the draft, they probably should do so on Day 1 or Day 2.

I believe that if done properly, all of the above can be accomplished within this coming offseason and the Bengals can compete again. Even moreso if McCarron and/or Dalton could be moved for additional early-round draft picks. However, at least one of the above needs will likely have to be acquired in FA because the Bengals only have so many early-round picks (expected four in Rds 1-3 unless trades happen).

Note - I did not list WR because I believe with LaFell gone and a staff that can properly assess and utilize John Ross, the Bengals receiving game will be improved. I also did not list TE because I believe the Bengals have adequate TE options for a run-focused offense much like the Jags.

What are your thoughts on this approach? Do you think the Bengals could morph into a run-first team and get back to competing once again?

Sounds good to me, but you forgot the necessary axing of Piano Man.

[corpjet]

I mentioned Doug Marrone as a HC a couple of years back and was laughed at.

You have to give a lot of credit to him and Tom Coughlin

Marrone was the non playing calling OC when the Saints won the Super Bowl, he then took over a Syracuse football team that was at a 50 year low and led them to a bowl win, he then took Buffalo from losing seasons back to .500.....Doug Marrone is a HUGE part of that turn around

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2017, 01:19 PM)Wyche Wrote: Sounds good to me, but you forgot the necessary axing of Piano Man.

I thought that was assumed with the "aggressiveness" part lol.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2017, 01:20 PM)corpjet Wrote: I mentioned Doug Marrone as a HC a couple of years back and was laughed at.

You have to give a lot of credit to him and Tom Coughlin

Marrone was the non playing calling OC when the Saints won the Super Bowl, he then took over a Syracuse football team that was at a 50 year low and led them to a bowl win, he then took Buffalo from losing seasons back to .500.....Doug Marrone is a HUGE part of that turn around

Absolutely Doug Marrone should be given credit. I should have mentioned his name explicitly in my original post but only did so indirectly with the mention of their philosophy changing.
Same with Coughlin.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-12-2017, 01:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I thought that was assumed with the "aggressiveness" part lol.

Ha ha ha.......my apologies good sir.

In all seriousness, there are some good ideas there.  We GOTTA address the C position.  The draft will not cure all that ails us.  We MUST be a serious player in FA if we wish to right the ship in one offseason.  If not, this will take a total rebuild.

They need to draft for needs after addressing the holes they can with FA.  I haven't looked at who's available where, but LB, FS, and at least 3 oline positions are a definite need.

[BenZoo2]

The problem with using the jags as a model is just look at their free agent signings the last two years. IF the bengals would do that THEN the jags would be a great model to use.

We let our guys go so we can accrue comp picks and keep 17 million in reserve for injuries. The bengals broke the mold on ineptitude when I️t comes to what not to model a franchise on.

I won’t even mention bringing in a gm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2017, 01:24 PM)Wyche Wrote: Ha ha ha.......my apologies good sir.

In all seriousness, there are some good ideas there.  We GOTTA address the C position.  The draft will not cure all that ails us.  We MUST be a serious player in FA if we wish to right the ship in one offseason.  If not, this will take a total rebuild.

They need to draft for needs after addressing the holes they can with FA.  I haven't looked at who's available where, but LB, FS, and at least 3 oline positions are a definite need.

At least three OL positions are a need, but what I was trying to convey with this thread was that you can have a bad LT and still win. The Jags are winning games with just two good OL. Linder and Parnell. The Bengals already have one good OL with Boling. Getting just two more really good OL should be a realistic goal and I don't think it HAS to be LT this year, but there has to be someone in mind to target in the following year or two in that case. I do think Center must absolutely be addressed this year. I think bringing back Andre Smith will help in the short term too.

[sandwedge]

Reps to you Ocho! You hit the nail on the head, be aggressive!! It pains me to no end watching us play this damn "zone" defense and rush 4 every play and LBers dropping 15 yds! It has to be obvious to this staff... Man up, blitz a DB or LBer once in awhile, stop this being afraid to get beat by the big play syndrome!! On offense take a chance, our 1st drive last Sunday we punt on 4th and half a football!!

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2017, 02:12 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: The problem with using the jags as a model is just look at their free agent signings the last two years.  IF the bengals would do that THEN the jags would be a great model to use.

We let our guys go so we can accrue comp picks and keep 17 million in reserve for injuries.  The bengals broke the mold on ineptitude when I️t comes to what not to model a franchise on.

I won’t even mention bringing in a gm


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, that was mentioned in the OP. The Bengals will need to add at least one key FA to get back to being competitive again quickly. Otherwise we'll see the aging talent sign elsewhere and the Bengals constantly roll into the draft with an abundance of picks, hoping to strike gold with at least a couple every year.

The way things are going, they are looking to more closely imitate the Browns.

[BenZoo2]

(12-12-2017, 02:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, that was mentioned in the OP. The Bengals will need to add at least one key FA to get back to being competitive again quickly. Otherwise we'll see the aging talent sign elsewhere and the Bengals constantly roll into the draft with an abundance of picks, hoping to strike gold with at least a couple every year.

The way things are going, they are looking to more closely imitate the Browns.

They’re imitating something brown alright!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-12-2017, 01:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: There's been a lot of doom and gloom on these boards for at least the past month or so, and I wanted to change the focus to something that might be more hopeful.

The purpose of this thread is to see if perhaps trying to imitate the Patriots and Steelers isn't the best option and instead maybe the Bengals should look at a more similar team who has gone from zero to hero - the Jacksonville Jaguars.

Jacksonville, like Cincinnati, doesn't have an elite QB. Most would say Bortles is actually worse than Dalton.
Their LT, like Cincinnati, has been terrible. Actually, Cam Robinson has been worse than Ogbuehi according to PFF (39.3 vs 40.3 rating).
They even lost their prized WR Allen Robinson to injury in the first game of the year.

Yet the Jags sit at 9-4 with a nice win over the beloved Seahawks.
How did they do it? The rushing attack and an aggressive, smothering defense.
They drafted an elite RB talent in Leonard Fournette. They have a highly rated Center and RT.
They have solid to dominant defensive players at nearly every spot. Most were drafted by Jacksonville but they brought in a few key FAs that really elevated them.
Calais Campbell, AJ Bouye, Barry Church all this year. Malik Jackson in 2016. And they traded for Marcell Dareus this year in the middle of the season.

This is the type of team the Bengals should look to mimic if they can't get an elite QB.
The Bengals have the running backs already in Mixon and Gio.
They have a dominant 3T with Atkins, and two good edge rushers in Dunlap and Lawson.
They look to have a budding star in William Jackson III. The light might finally be coming on for Darqueze Dennard too. Iloka and Williams are both solid, but both IMO are SS.
Burfict is a monster at LB when he's able to play.

So what do the Bengals need?
1) A head coach that emphasizes aggressiveness and attacking the LOS.
2) An offensive coordinator that makes this offense prioritize the rushing attack.
3) At least two dominant OL. Guards and Centers look to be strong in this upcoming draft. There are also a handful of OTs that could be good LTs but potentially elite RTs.
4) A 3-down LB. I believe this can come from FA in the form of Zach Brown or Preston Brown. There are also some quality players in the draft like Josey Jewell.
5) A true FS that is instinctual and can cause turnovers. The Bengals DBs don't cause enough of them. I believe this draft class has some good safety candidates.
6) 1-2 pass rushing threats, preferably a DT. The draft looks to have good pass-rushing DTs at the top of the draft, but not many mid-to-late round prospects to groom. If the Bengals go DT in the draft, they probably should do so on Day 1 or Day 2.

I believe that if done properly, all of the above can be accomplished within this coming offseason and the Bengals can compete again. Even moreso if McCarron and/or Dalton could be moved for additional early-round draft picks. However, at least one of the above needs will likely have to be acquired in FA because the Bengals only have so many early-round picks (expected four in Rds 1-3 unless trades happen).

Note - I did not list WR because I believe with LaFell gone and a staff that can properly assess and utilize John Ross, the Bengals receiving game will be improved. I also did not list TE because I believe the Bengals have adequate TE options for a run-focused offense much like the Jags.

What are your thoughts on this approach? Do you think the Bengals could morph into a run-first team and get back to competing once again?

Ocho, great thread with some originality, major reps.

Yes, i think this is the way to go. With a new HC like Russ Grimm who knows how to fix the O-line and adjust i could
see this happening. Get Norwell the Panthers Guard in FA, draft Billy Price the Center and this is well on its way.

Like you said we have lots of the proper players already in place for this to become reality.

I think aggressive is the main word here that you mention. No more of this conservative approach.

[THE PISTONS]

I'll be rooting for Jacksonville in the playoffs. I love how their team is built.

They have a really young and aggressive defense. A bruising running game.

Jacksonville has A LOT of young talent though. They're basically us 5-6 years ago.

[bengalguy71]

(12-12-2017, 02:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'll be rooting for Jacksonville in the playoffs. I love how their team is built.

They have a really young and aggressive defense. A bruising running game.

Jacksonville has A LOT of young talent though. They're basically us 5-6 years ago.

Ditto!  Won't watch but will be rooting and it's a Florida team.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2017, 02:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'll be rooting for Jacksonville in the playoffs. I love how their team is built.

They have a really young and aggressive defense. A bruising running game.

Jacksonville has A LOT of young talent though. They're basically us 5-6 years ago.

Bingo.

Jalen Ramsey, Leonard Fournette, Yannick Ngakoue, Dante Fowler, Telvin Smith, Marqise Lee, Allen Hurns, Allen Robinson, Brandon Linder, TJ Yeldon, Myles Jack are all young players that JAX drafted and getting at least solid production from them.

But they recognized you can't do everything with the draft and were aggressive in FA for some remaining spots when they realized they had a window of opportunity with all these pretty solid young draft picks on their rookie contracts. They weren't going to just sit back with what they had and hope everything would just magically manifest into a contender.

That's how they've been able to build such a strong team.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2017, 02:42 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bingo.

Jalen Ramsey, Leonard Fournette, Yannick Ngakoue, Dante Fowler, Telvin Smith, Marqise Lee, Allen Hurns, Allen Robinson, Brandon Linder, TJ Yeldon, Myles Jack are all young players that JAX drafted and getting at least solid production from them.

But they recognized you can't do everything with the draft and were aggressive in FA for some remaining spots when they realized they had a window of opportunity with all these pretty solid young draft picks on their rookie contracts. They weren't going to just sit back with what they had and hope everything would just magically manifest into a contender.

That's how they've been able to build such a strong team.

Yep...just imagine if we added a Calais Campbell to our team 5 years ago? Or a Dareus?

Or an Alex Mack at Center? Oh my...would our line have been great! Whitworth/Zeitler/Mack/Boling/Smith back then? Wow!

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2017, 02:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep...just imagine if we added a Calais Campbell to our team 5 years ago? Or a Dareus?

Or an Alex Mack at Center? Oh my...would our line have been great! Whitworth/Zeitler/Mack/Boling/Smith back then? Wow!

I think part of that is that Marvin is absolutely clueless about OL, same with Mike Brown, and that's why they put their full faith in Alexander.
Bill Lazor, Ken Zampese, Hue Jackson, and Jay Gruden were all from the skill position side of offensive coaching as well.

Bring in a HC and/or OC with some experience working with OL and I think we'll see a different (better) approach toward OL in FA and/or the draft.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-12-2017, 02:46 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Yep...just imagine if we added a Calais Campbell to our team 5 years ago? Or a Dareus?

Or an Alex Mack at Center? Oh my...would our line have been great! Whitworth/Zeitler/Mack/Boling/Smith back then? Wow!

Remembering back, there were many of us that were on the draft Alex Mack bandwagon.  Just about as many that were on the draft Pat Elfine bandwagon.  

And still, the highest drafted Center of the Mike Brown era?  Jonathan Luigs 3rd round, played 0 downs for the Bengals.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-12-2017, 04:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Remembering back, there were many of us that were on the draft Alex Mack bandwagon.  Just about as many that were on the draft Pat Elfine bandwagon.  

And still, the highest drafted Center of the Mike Brown era?  Jonathan Luigs 3rd round, played 0 downs for the Bengals.

Luigs was 4th round, pick 106.
Then Russell Bodine - 4th round, pick 111.
Then Eric Ghiaciuc - 4th round, pick 119.
Then JJ Dielman - 5th round, pick 176.
TJ Johnson and Reggie Stephens were 7th rounders.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-12-2017, 04:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Luigs was 4th round, pick 106.
Then Russell Bodine - 4th round, pick 111.
Then Eric Ghiaciuc - 4th round, pick 119.
Then JJ Dielman - 5th round, pick 176.
TJ Johnson and Reggie Stephens were 7th rounders.

Ok, my memory was a little fuzzy.  However, my assertion still stands.  

Do you see any bad mofos on that list?  Me neither.

It's time for this team to break the cycle, and draft a damn Center that will be the rock of the line for the next 10-12 years.