Since Vikings 11 & 3 with same Def System - Can someone provide their Cap $ versus Us

[depthchart]

I'm at work with little time.

Can some of you Compare & Contrast the Vikings with the Bengals ?  (in part, since they have the same Defensive System as we do)

What is their Cap number versus ours ?

I hear they spent more in Free Agency ?  How much more ?

Are they Spending a lot more Money Overall ?

Is it that they are just Drafting better ? 

Are things somewhat equal in the "Overall Spending" area but the Coaching is the difference ?  Or do they spend significantly more ?

Are their Coordinators & Assistants really better paid ?  If so, by how much ?

Etc...

Did we PEAK out at a competitive Spending number in 2015 and then backed it down a lot relative to the 2017 team & the 2017 Cap ?

In other words, are we Spending money "Competitively" when compared to the Vikings ?

Or is it more about them having better Football minds making their decisions ?  or a combination of both ?

Compare & Contrast the 2017 Vikings versus the 2017 Bengals (with an eye on our 2015 team as our recent Peak Roster under Mike Brown) to gauge our chances going forward.

I have a feeling it may be less about spending Money and more about having solid NFL people making the decisions.

If we won't spend competitively AND won't get Top Notch NFL people to make the decisions then we are Double screwed going forward.

[Joelist]

Actually they don't have the exact same system - Guenther plays a lot of soft zone and Zimmer detests soft zone.

[THE PISTONS]

Well they had a bad offensive line last year. This offseason they signed:

Riley Reiff: 5 years $58.75 million
Mike Remmers: 5 yars $30 million
Latavious Murray: 3 years $15 million
Also Case Keenum: 1 year $2 million
Michael Floyd

People always say the Rams are a good example of just changing coaches. Well, they also added talent:
Robert Woods: 5 years $34 million
Whitworth: 3 years $35.75 million
Kayvoon Webster: 2 years $7.75 million
Connor Barwin: 1 year $3.5 million
John Sullivan: 1 year $1 million (GREAT value for a Center)

And they traded for Sammy Watkins!

[THE PISTONS]

We:

Signed Minter: 1 year $4.25 million
Andre Smith: 1 year $3.25 million

Lost Whitworth, Zeitler, Peko, Burkhead, Hunt, Maualuga, Dansby, and Clarke.

[THE PISTONS]

2016 We Lost: Jones, Sanu, Nelson, Lamur, Andre Smith, Hall, Hawk, and Tate

We added: Lafell, Dansby, Taylor Mays, Jimmy Wilson

[depthchart]

(12-18-2017, 02:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually they don't have the exact same system - Guenther plays a lot of soft zone and Zimmer detests soft zone.

Thinking more of the 4 - 3 System here plus the ties we have with Zimmer.

Also more Big picture Spending comparisons with the Vikings.

Can we find some Hope in a Spending comparison with the Vikings that it would be close enough for us to Compete in that area at least in the future ?

Or do we really have one hand tied behind our backs in the Spending area as compared to this year's Vikings team ?

[McC]

(12-18-2017, 02:52 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually they don't have the exact same system - Guenther plays a lot of soft zone and Zimmer detests soft zone.

Zimmer also doesn't have Marv's chicken shit hands all over his defense either like Paulie does.

[depthchart]

(12-18-2017, 02:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well they had a bad offensive line last year. This offseason they signed:

Riley Reiff: 5 years $58.75 million
Mike Remmers: 5 yars $30 million
Latavious Murray: 3 years $15 million
Also Case Keenum: 1 year $2 million
Michael Floyd

People always say the Rams are a good example of just changing coaches. Well, they also added talent:
Robert Woods: 5 years $34 million
Whitworth: 3 years $35.75 million
Kayvoon Webster: 2 years $7.75 million
Connor Barwin: 1 year $3.5 million
John Sullivan: 1 year $1 million (GREAT value for a Center)

And they traded for Sammy Watkins!

How does all of that Translate into Actual 2017 Cap spending ?

I know in Baseball you can see VAST differences between teams in Cap Spending.

What are the overall Team Hard Numbers for the Bengals versus the Vikings in 2017 ?

Do we spend 80% of what they do, or 90% or 95% team wide overall ?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-18-2017, 02:48 PM)depthchart Wrote: I'm at work with little time.

Can some of you Compare & Contrast the Vikings with the Bengals ?  (in part, since they have the same Defensive System as we do)

What is their Cap number versus ours ?

I hear they spent more in Free Agency ?  How much more ?

Are they Spending a lot more Money Overall ?

Is it that they are just Drafting better ? 

Are things somewhat equal in the "Overall Spending" area but the Coaching is the difference ?  Or do they spend significantly more ?

Are their Coordinators & Assistants really better paid ?  If so, by how much ?

Etc...

Did we PEAK out at a competitive Spending number in 2015 and then backed it down a lot relative to the 2017 team & the 2017 Cap ?

In other words, are we Spending money "Competitively" when compared to the Vikings ?

Or is it more about them having better Football minds making their decisions ?  or a combination of both ?

Compare & Contrast the 2017 Vikings versus the 2017 Bengals (with an eye on our 2015 team as our recent Peak Roster under Mike Brown) to gauge our chances going forward.

I have a feeling it may be less about spending Money and more about having solid NFL people making the decisions.

If we won't spend competitively AND won't get Top Notch NFL people to make the decisions then we are Double screwed going forward.

To answer your questions, we've lost A LOT of talent in free agency and our drafts haven't replaced most of the losses adequately.

So yes, if we had better scouts and personnel people we'd be better off today.

That said, we've had a hole at Center for over a decade. Would it hurt to sign a free agent at a position of need?

The Vikings and Rams knew they had issues. They went out and tried to address them in free agency. The Vikings also drafted a Center.

[Millhouse]

(12-18-2017, 02:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well they had a bad offensive line last year. This offseason they signed:

Riley Reiff: 5 years $58.75 million
Mike Remmers: 5 yars $30 million
Latavious Murray: 3 years $15 million
Also Case Keenum: 1 year $2 million
Michael Floyd

People always say the Rams are a good example of just changing coaches. Well, they also added talent:
Robert Woods: 5 years $34 million
Whitworth: 3 years $35.75 million
Kayvoon Webster: 2 years $7.75 million
Connor Barwin: 1 year $3.5 million
John Sullivan: 1 year $1 million (GREAT value for a Center)

And they traded for Sammy Watkins!

Yup. Both teams front offices basically said they want to win first and foremost. Then they made changes at positions they thought was best regardless of contracts and loyalties and whatnot. And it has paid off for them because they took a chance in making changes. Bengals made little changes and lost talent in the process, and 5-11 is looking like the final record due to the front office sucking a bag of suckable things.

I know in another thread I made a reply saying 'And the Rams' in response to changing the coach. But it does go deeper than just the head coach. The new head coach will be part of a turnaround, but it equally if not more so will be because the front office makes changes in bringing in better players through free agency while hiring new people to run the draft or work with the coach for the draft.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-18-2017, 03:03 PM)depthchart Wrote: How does all of that Translate into Actual 2017 Cap spending ?

I know in Baseball you can see VAST differences between teams in Cap Spending.

What are the overall Team Hard Numbers for the Bengals versus the Vikings in 2017 ?

In the NFL it's more subtle. When we lost Whitworth and BEFORE we signed Smith we had $21 million in cap space.

Currently, the Bengals and Vikings have nearly identical cap numbers after the Burfict extension.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

IF you can get young talent, on rookie deals playing well...you are in great shape. How many good young players have we drafted over the past 5 years?

[depthchart]

(12-18-2017, 03:08 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In the NFL it's more subtle. When we lost Whitworth and BEFORE we signed Smith we had $21 million in cap space.

Currently, the Bengals and Vikings have nearly identical cap numbers after the Burfict extension.

http://thebengalsboard.com/newreply.php?tid=14018&replyto=488226

IF you can get young talent, on rookie deals playing well...you are in great shape. How many good young players have we drafted over the past 5 years?

So in essence, the Vikings had to sign a number of Free Agents to Boost their Cap number up to match the Bengals Cap number ?

If this is correct, then the Bengals not Spending enough Money isn't really our problem.

We are Spending at a Competitive Rate but it is not being Targeted properly ?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-18-2017, 03:07 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Yup. Both teams front offices basically said they want to win first and foremost. Then they made changes at positions they thought was best regardless of contracts and loyalties and whatnot. And it has paid off for them because they took a chance in making changes. Bengals made little changes and lost talent in the process, and 5-11 is looking like the final record due to the front office sucking a bag of suckable things.

I know in another thread I made a reply saying 'And the Rams' in response to changing the coach. But it does go deeper than just the head coach. The new head coach will be part of a turnaround, but it equally if not more so will be because the front office makes changes in bringing in better players through free agency while hiring new people to run the draft or work with the coach for the draft.

Yeah to truly turn things around we need to start getting more impact players through the draft and getting them on the field earlier.

Now that our roster is in shambles it should be easier...but we don't just need a starter...we need a quality starter.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-18-2017, 03:14 PM)depthchart Wrote: So in essence, the Vikings had to sign a number of Free Agents to Boost their Cap number up to match the Bengals Cap number ?

If this is correct, then the Bengals not Spending enough Money isn't really our problem.

We are Spending at a Competitive Rate but it is not being Targeted properly ?

I'd say our problems are:

1) Poor drafting over the past 5 years coupled with losing quality players in free agency.
2) Coaching/player development
3) Not embracing free agency to sign players at positions of need.

Had we signed a Center like John Sullivan. Or a free agent Guard...we might have started the year winning more and not ended up in this train wreck of a spot.

[depthchart]

(12-18-2017, 03:17 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'd say our problems are:

1) Poor drafting over the past 5 years coupled with losing quality players in free agency.
2) Coaching/player development
3) Not embracing free agency to sign players at positions of need.

Had we signed a Center like John Sullivan. Or a free agent Guard...we might have started the year winning more and not ended up in this train wreck of a spot.

John Ross is an example.

He gets #9 overall pick Money but is unable to get on the field.

If we are spending about the same as the Vikings, then it comes down to how Effective their decision makers are versus ours with who they target to spend money on.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-18-2017, 03:28 PM)depthchart Wrote: John Ross is an example.

He gets #9 overall pick Money but is unable to get on the field.

If we are spending about the same as the Vikings, then it comes down to how Effective their decision makers are versus ours with who they target to spend money on.

Look at the chart- I'd say about 75% of NFL teams spend within $10-15 million of each other.

The thing is...we have a woefully small scouting staff. People on this board argue that it doesn't matter the size.

That would imply that the Bengals are 3 times smarter than all the Steelers and Patriots scouts as we need that much less.

[depthchart]

(12-18-2017, 03:08 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: In the NFL it's more subtle. When we lost Whitworth and BEFORE we signed Smith we had $21 million in cap space.

Currently, the Bengals and Vikings have nearly identical cap numbers after the Burfict extension.

http://thebengalsboard.com/newreply.php?tid=14018&replyto=488226

IF you can get young talent, on rookie deals playing well...you are in great shape. How many good young players have we drafted over the past 5 years?

This does give me some Hope for the future.

Enough money is being spent to Win, however, it will take better Football minds going forward to make sure those dollars are allocated more efficiently.

Still need those better Football minds to appear, however, which may or may not happen.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-18-2017, 03:33 PM)depthchart Wrote: This does give me some Hope for the future.

Enough money is being spent to Win, however, it will take better Football minds going forward to make sure those dollars are allocated more efficiently.

Still need those better Football minds to appear, however, which may or may not happen.

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

[bengalhoel]

(12-18-2017, 03:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Look at the chart- I'd say about 75% of NFL teams spend within $10-15 million of each other.

The thing is...we have a woefully small scouting staff. People on this board argue that it doesn't matter the size.

That would imply that the Bengals are 3 times smarter than all the Steelers and Patriots scouts as we need that much less.

How do we know that if the coaching is this bad though? Maybe if we didnt have PA fighting for Bodine when most people know he is a piece of garbage this line wouldnt suck so bad.  Maybe we wouldnt have drafted Ogbuehi and Fischer. Maybe these guys are really good but they need a new coach to teach them. Maybe a new coach would not have drafted John Ross , or if he did make sure his coaches can learn to use him. 

These coaches that know they can do anything they want and cannot be fired  are the problem. Most coaching staffs in the NFL do not get to stay around this. Some fresh blood is what we need. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-18-2017, 03:33 PM)depthchart Wrote: This does give me some Hope for the future.

Enough money is being spent to Win, however, it will take better Football minds going forward to make sure those dollars are allocated more efficiently.

Still need those better Football minds to appear, however, which may or may not happen.

Yeah, while enough is being spent to win...they detest signing external free agents to address positions of need.