Leadership is earned, not appointed.

[Interceptor]

I'm positive Dalton hasn't earned the leadership this team really needs. See? Not negative - positive!

[Devils Advocate]

In the NFL leadership is, in fact, appointed. Every single team attempts to make their QB the leader, whether the guy has it in him or not.

Jordan Palmer had plenty of leadership, but it got him nowhere as an NFL player.

Trying to dissect the virtues of leadership from the outside looking in, is a fallacy; a delusion.

Andy has the confidence of his coaches in the leadership role. That's all you need to know ... that's all we'll ever know, about his ability to be the team's leader. They say he's filled it. If they're satisfied, then that's the bottom line.

[Devils Advocate]

You's guys don't even know.

Andy told the entire team to get on his back, that he'd lead them to victory. Unfortunately the TB defense took his word literal.

[Shake n Blake]

I didn't vote. While I don't think Dalton is a leader, I don't think he's a "try-hard" or a fake, either. He's just doing what the coaches are telling him to do. It's not his fault that Marv always tries to develop leaders when leaders aren't developed just by telling them to be leaders.

This team has always had a leadership problem and it's goes way farther back than when Dalton got here. They've never been good at finding good leaders in the draft, and any natural leaders we may stumble upon are discouraged from displaying that fire on the field or in interviews.

Of course, when (if) this team starts winning playoff games, we might start to see some of these players show more leadership qualities. Rah-rah speeches can come off as corny when you've never won anything in January.

[McC]

(08-25-2015, 07:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If leadership is defined on how the team performs then we have different leaders every year.  Some seasons guys are good leaders then next year they are not.

Doesn't seem like a great way to define leadership to me.

It looks like Boomer was only a good leader for one season in his entire 14 year career.  Other than the '88 season Boomer was 68-89 as a starter.  And of the 11 other years where he started more than 5 games he only had 2 winning seasons.

If you're too stupid to know how leadership is defined, I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you.  You wanna hate on Boomer, hate on.  I couldn't care less.  Go argue with yourself, for all I care.

[McC]

(08-25-2015, 08:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I didn't vote. While I don't think Dalton is a leader, I don't think he's a "try-hard" or a fake, either. He's just doing what the coaches are telling him to do. It's not his fault that Marv always tries to develop leaders when leaders aren't developed just by telling them to be leaders.

This team has always had a leadership problem and it's goes way farther back than when Dalton got here. They've never been good at finding good leaders in the draft, and any natural leaders we may stumble upon are discouraged from displaying that fire on the field or in interviews.

Of course, when (if) this team starts winning playoff games, we might start to see some of these players show more leadership qualities. Rah-rah speeches can come off as corny when you've never won anything in January.

This is it in a nutshell. 

It's not Andy's fault he's not a leader.  It's the coaches' fault for telling him to be one.  They will not stop meddling with him until they break him and, imo. he is creeping closer and closer to the breaking point.

[fredtoast]

(08-25-2015, 09:32 PM)McC Wrote: If you're too stupid to know how leadership is defined, I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you.  You wanna hate on Boomer, hate on.  I couldn't care less.  Go argue with yourself, for all I care.

You already gave your definition of what makes leader, and it does not apply to Boomer.  

If "no one dared to let him down", or if "he made everyone around him better" then he would not have had such a dismal losing record over the course of his career.

[yellowxdiscipline]

12 people voted no and my guess have never lead anyone in their entire lives, and probably know absolute dick about leading people.

[GarbageDisposal]

(08-25-2015, 09:41 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: 12 people voted no and my guess have never lead anyone in there entire lives, and probably know absolute dick about leading people.

You mean to tell me you can make assessments of us based on the fact that we're not fooled by Andy's "Let's have some fun and play together!" summer camp counselor pep speeches?

"C'mon, man" - fall guy advocate Cris Carter

[*Nately120*]

This whole leadership BS is so subjective.

Dalton was supposedly the leader Palmer never was as soon as Dalton hit the field in 2011, now we are saying Dalton is no leader and some schlub with a bad arm and even worse tattoos is a better leader while the guy we decided was a way worse leader than Dalton is now considered a top-notch leader for a different team.

Leader this, leader that. I think "leader" and "upside" are the two biggest bs terms fans throw around. It means "I have no empirical evidence, so I'm going to start using terms that are ill-defined, if not outright pretend to make my point."

If someone wants to start a QB with a god awful statline and no resume you'd better believe he's going to mention the guy's LEADERSHIP and/or UPSIDE!!!!

[*jason*]

(08-25-2015, 09:43 PM)GarbageDisposal Wrote: You mean to tell me you can make assessments of us based on the fact that we're not fooled by Andy's "Let's have some fun and play together!" summer camp counselor pep speeches?

"C'mon, man" - fall guy advocate Cris Carter

Lord have mercy....  Maybe you and whoever else keeps going back to that need a rah rah motivational speech to do your job, but these are grown ass professionals.


#whattimeisit
#anydogsinthehouse
#whoride?weride

[Interceptor]

(08-25-2015, 09:41 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: 12 people voted no and my guess have never lead anyone in their entire lives, and probably know absolute dick about leading people.

Or the balls not to be a kiss-ass homer about it.

[WhoDeyWho]

(08-25-2015, 10:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This whole leadership BS is so subjective.

Dalton was supposedly the leader Palmer never was as soon as Dalton hit the field in 2011, now we are saying Dalton is no leader and some schlub with a bad arm and even worse tattoos is a better leader while the guy we decided was a way worse leader than Dalton is now considered a top-notch leader for a different team.

Leader this, leader that.  I think "leader" and "upside" are the two biggest bs terms fans throw around.  It means "I have no empirical evidence, so I'm going to start using terms that are ill-defined, if not outright pretend to make my point."

If someone wants to start a QB with a god awful statline and no resume you'd better believe he's going to mention the guy's LEADERSHIP and/or UPSIDE!!!!

Pretty much.  It is a stupid argument.  

[J24]

Hes won 40 games in 4 years. That's 10 wins a year. You can't do that unless you have some leadership qualities at QB right? You can't win 10 games per a season and have a shity QB can you? Daltons better than what people think.

[*Nately120*]

(08-25-2015, 11:10 PM)J24 Wrote: Hes won 40 games in 4 years. That's 10 wins a year. You can't do that unless you have some leadership qualities at QB right? You can't win 10 games per a season and have a shity QB can you? Daltons better than what people think.

So winning 10  football games makes a QB a leader?  Or are you saying only a QB who is a leader could manage to win 10 games?  This is my point; leadership is undefined and deductive.

[Brownshoe]

(08-25-2015, 11:10 PM)J24 Wrote: Hes won 40 games in 4 years. That's 10 wins a year. You can't do that unless you have some leadership qualities at QB right? You can't win 10 games per a season and have a shity QB can you? Daltons better than what people think.

The Bengals lost their top 2 receivers before Daltons first year too. It's not like he was drafted into a loaded team either.

[*Nately120*]

(08-25-2015, 11:49 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: The Bengals lost their top 2 receivers before Daltons first year too. It's not like he was drafted into a loaded team either.

Good ol' Dalton homers; bring up anything and watch regular season wins become the high-watermark by which anything is measured.

40 wins?  He's a leader.  We may as well appoint him a 4-star general in the US Army the way people follow him!  40 wins is leadership!  Leadership is 40 wins!  If Dalton goes 8-8 this year it means he simply has 20% less leadership!

[fredtoast]

(08-26-2015, 12:05 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Good ol' Dalton homers; bring up anything and watch regular season wins become the high-watermark by which anything is measured.

40 wins?  He's a leader.  We may as well appoint him a 4-star general in the US Army the way people follow him!  40 wins is leadership!  Leadership is 40 wins!  If Dalton goes 8-8 this year it means he simply has 20% less leadership!

I am not saying that Dalton is a great leader, but this claim in support of Dalton makes just as much sense as any claim against him being a good leader.

Then whole argument is silly because nonoe of us are on the team or have any way of telling who are good leaders and who are not (other than what other coaches and players have said about Whit and Peko)

[CornerBlitz]

Anybody that thinks Dalton has leadership qualities is absolutely kidding themselves. The guy is a joke.

[*Nately120*]

(08-26-2015, 12:17 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not saying that Dalton is a great leader, but this claim in support of Dalton makes just as much sense as any claim against him being a good leader.

Then whole argument is silly because nonoe of us are on the team or have any way of telling who are good leaders and who are not (other than what other coaches and players have said about Whit and Peko)

I'm all about pointing out that people throw the "leader" term around willy-nilly.  I'm surprised no one has said "Oh yea, well Hitler was a good leader, so you're saying Dalton is Hitler?!?!?!??!" yet.