'It’s time for the Bengals to alter their offseason mindset.'

[bengalsturntup926]

Since we are talking about Free agents,I agree the Bengals need to be unbengal like ,like he said. I took a look at our last Superbowl roster, and I wanted to see how many free agents did the Bengals have. I think the number of players not drafted by the Bengals were like 2 guys. This makes all the sense in the world,Mike learned from his dad paul,this was before free agency era . Mike has never been good in free agency since taking over. Hmm does that ring a bell in your head? The free agents the Bengals did try was few and far between and very bad luck on them like Antonio Bryant. Or Odom who looked promising till he was injured,imagine if we had him for the playoffs that year. Mike needs to wake the hell up and try for 1 or two good players that will open up the draft for us. Not bottom barrel guys like bjge and Brandon labum.

[grampahol]

Not one cent is my money so I don't particularly care how they spend it. The day they come to me and say 'We need your social security check to get new free agents' is the day I start really caring and of course the answer would be to take a hike.. 

[fredtoast]

(01-16-2018, 08:12 PM)McC Wrote: The writer never said a word bout signing expensive or big name free agents.  

Then what is his point?  The bengals sign multiple free agents every year.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-17-2018, 01:12 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, splurging on a free agent like Whitworth would have really put a dent in that $11 million in unused cap space.

Sadly we knew money would be reserved to roll over to 2018 because of the impending contract expiration for both Dunlap and Atkins next offseason.
Hobson admitted as much in his latest article when stating retaining both of those guys was going to be a top priority.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-17-2018, 10:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then what is his point?  The bengals sign multiple free agents every year.

True, they definitely do. But the difference (as you know) is the Bengals sign lower-tier FAs whereas the Jags went out and signed multiple impactful FAs.

Kevin Minter is a great example. I'm sure the Bengals thought he'd be a great addition to their team. But he ended up playing poor in 2017. Whether that's on him, the coaches, or a mix of both, it doesn't matter. The point is they missed on signing an impactful FA. Meanwhile, Washington signed Zach Brown for less than the Bengals signed Minter and Brown was solid for them. He was a quality FA signing (at least compared to Minter).

I can understand the statement of a team doesn't "know" if a player will be good on their team before signing them, but that's the point of having scouts and coaches that can better assess player talent. More successful organizations are able to more often sign players they "know" will improve their team or make them stay at the top.

[fredtoast]

(01-17-2018, 10:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Sadly we knew money would be reserved to roll over to 2018 because of the impending contract expiration for both Dunlap and Atkins next offseason.
Hobson admitted as much in his latest article when stating retaining both of those guys was going to be a top priority.

And at that time we also thought we would have to pay a lot to re-sign Eifert.

Zeitler was very good, but like Eric Steinbach years ago he was not worth the money the Browns were willing to pay him.  The big mistake was letting whit walk, but again this is what good teams do.  They let older players walk a year too early instead of a year too late.  Our problem was that the young guy we had drafted as a replacement was a complete flop.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-17-2018, 11:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And at that time we also thought we would have to pay a lot to re-sign Eifert.

Zeitler was very good, but like Eric Steinbach years ago he was not worth the money the Browns were willing to pay him.  The big mistake was letting whit walk, but again this is what good teams do.  They let older players walk a year too early instead of a year too late.  Our problem was that the young guy we had drafted as a replacement was a complete flop.

Correct. Money was saved for Eifert.

I agree with everything you said here. The problem was not with letting aging players walk as much as not drafting/developing young players to replace.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-16-2018, 03:52 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: That's sort of the quandry though. How are you going to know how much an upper tier, higher paid free agent may impact/improve your team if you never roll the dice to find out? 

I do think you have to be smart about it as well, taking into account how big the need is at the position, how well the player fits  your scheme, whether the player was productive over a period of time and not just a contract year, injury history and other factors.

Free agency is always a gamble to a certain extent, but after 27 years without a single playoff win, I think it's about time they took that gamble. 

I think the big decisions on the coaching staff is a gamble.  They haven't made such a house cleaning in a long time.  I wish Marv had gone with them, but regardless, it was a bit of a gamble to start over on the offensive line, and most of the defense.  

I think going after a big FA might be more a move of desperation then execution of improving the roster.  We saw massive improvements in the rushing attack and offensive line play the last two games when Redmond and Westerman were given (FINALLY!) an opportunity.  Why not keep Boling at LT and have Westerman be LG and Redmond be RG?  Then all they really need is a center and RT which could be filled with a combination of FA and the draft.

The horrid performance of the offensive line was probably 75% of this team's problems this past season.  If you improve the line, the run game improves, which improves the pass game, which improves time of possession, which improves the defense....blah, blah, blah.

The other major gap in ability is in the LB corps.  Depth was paper thin.  There should be one or even two FA acquisitions plus a draft pick to up the play of the middle of the defense.  
 
Most of Cincinnati realizes the importance of an offensive line.  If you want to improve the team, sign Ryan Jensen.  He is a massive upgrade, and he would hurt a division rival by taking him.  Dalton has not had protection right up the middle since he has been a Bengal.  I think most of the rest could be addressed with the draft.  That would be big enough splash for me, and I think it would provide flexibility in the draft as well. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-16-2018, 04:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I would like to add that Bengals should not be afraid of cutting underperforming vets, especially those who are in the final year of their contracts with no dead cap if cut. That would help open funds to address actual needs and therefore open the draft too.

Who is on your list?  I would cut MJ but the team won't.  Ditto Shawn Williams, although I am willing to give both a bit of a pass and hope the new coach puts MJ as a rotational DT (where he was surprisingly decent) and uses Williams more up at the LOS to stuff the rushing attack and easy check-downs.

I hate salary-cap discussions but if you think of players they will likely not be re-signing that are internal FA (Eifert, Adam Jones) there should be some money freed up right there.  I know they have to sign Dunlap and Atkins, but the increases of their contracts could easily be from not re-signing Jones and Eifert.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-17-2018, 10:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then what is his point?  The bengals sign multiple free agents every year.

I took his point as this tiger needs to change his stripes.  Being loyal and paying decent players because they are under contract is not how the rest of the league operates.  I disagree with his feelings towards Dalton, but he is saying they need to start making changes to players under contracts and be willing to replace players with potentially better talent.  

I actually admire the Bengals for being one of the only teams that truly honors a contract that they sign a player to in 99% of the cases, but the reality is that if you are the only one that does this and no one seems to be wanting to join your club because of this honorable practice you are playing at a disadvantage. 

[*ochocincos*]

(01-17-2018, 12:04 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Who is on your list?  I would cut MJ but the team won't.  Ditto Shawn Williams, although I am willing to give both a bit of a pass and hope the new coach puts MJ as a rotational DT (where he was surprisingly decent) and uses Williams more up at the LOS to stuff the rushing attack and easy check-downs.

I hate salary-cap discussions but if you think of players they will likely not be re-signing that are internal FA (Eifert, Adam Jones) there should be some money freed up right there.  I know they have to sign Dunlap and Atkins, but the increases of their contracts could easily be from not re-signing Jones and Eifert.  

I'd consider cutting all of the following:
Michael Johnson ($5 mill saved)
Adam Jones ($6 mill saved)
Brandon LaFell ($4 mill saved)

That would be a savings of $15 mill. Combine that with the expected savings of $39 mill and you're talking $54 mill in cap.
Plenty to bring in a good LB, WR, and/or OL while still having enough to extend Atkins and Dunlap and re-sign a few Bengals hitting FA that are worth keeping.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-17-2018, 11:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And at that time we also thought we would have to pay a lot to re-sign Eifert.

Zeitler was very good, but like Eric Steinbach years ago he was not worth the money the Browns were willing to pay him.  The big mistake was letting whit walk, but again this is what good teams do.  They let older players walk a year too early instead of a year too late.  Our problem was that the young guy we had drafted as a replacement was a complete flop.

Although I agree that letting Whit walk was a mistake, I can't help but think the team has zero more wins with him in 2017.  Why?  Because the inside of the line still sucked.  The personnel decisions all over team team were moronic.  Alexander was still the offensive line coach.

So, in order to improve this team, I am finally able to say that I am ok with the fact that Whit wasn't re-signed.  Like so many said about Palmer quitting (which I friggin HATE HIM FOR...big difference when you are under contract), changes were made in wake of him leaving.  

Here's to hoping that those changes lead the Bengals to the promise land....but no one should hold their breath. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-17-2018, 12:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd consider cutting all of the following:
Michael Johnson ($5 mill saved)
Adam Jones ($6 mill saved)
Brandon LaFell ($4 mill saved)

That would be a savings of $15 mill. Combine that with the expected savings of $39 mill and you're talking $54 mill in cap.
Plenty to bring in a good LB, WR, and/or OL while still having enough to extend Atkins and Dunlap and re-sign a few Bengals hitting FA that are worth keeping.

I though Lafell's contract was up this year?  Damn!  Another year of hearing what a pro he is....despite getting zero separation in single coverage afforded by AJ Green.  And likely another year of Ross and Core not getting the opportunity.  

[SunsetBengal]

(01-17-2018, 12:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd consider cutting all of the following:
Michael Johnson ($5 mill saved)
Adam Jones ($6 mill saved)
Brandon LaFell ($4 mill saved)

That would be a savings of $15 mill. Combine that with the expected savings of $39 mill and you're talking $54 mill in cap.
Plenty to bring in a good LB, WR, and/or OL while still having enough to extend Atkins and Dunlap and re-sign a few Bengals hitting FA that are worth keeping.

Why stop there?  As long as we're getting rid of mediocre players from the payroll, let's clean the house!

To your list, add:

Shawn Williams (not that great, injury prone)
Dre K  (wasted money)
Kevin Minter (we can do better)
Nick Vigil (face it, he's not developing into a star)
Hardy Nickerson (can't live off of Dad's name alone)
Cedric Ogbuehi (no explanation needed)
Fisher  (see above)
Alex Ericson (he blows as return man)
Pat Sims (we can do better)
Trey Hopkins (he sucked, even before he was injured)

*This is already assuming that we are allowing A. Smith, J. Hill, R. Bodine to all walk in FA

*ALSO*  Shit or get off the pot, when it comes to McCarron.  Trade the man, get something of value!

[*ochocincos*]

(01-17-2018, 12:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Why stop there?  As long as we're getting rid of mediocre players from the payroll, let's clean the house!

To your list, add:

Shawn Williams (not that great, injury prone)
Dre K  (wasted money)
Kevin Minter (we can do better)
Nick Vigil (face it, he's not developing into a star)
Hardy Nickerson (can't live off of Dad's name alone)
Cedric Ogbuehi (no explanation needed)
Fisher  (see above)
Alex Ericson (he blows as return man)
Pat Sims (we can do better)
Trey Hopkins (he sucked, even before he was injured)

*This is already assuming that we are allowing A. Smith, J. Hill, R. Bodine to all walk in FA

*ALSO*  Shit or get off the pot, when it comes to McCarron.  Trade the man, get something of value!

Pat Sims and Kevin Minter don't need cut. They are set to hit FA in March.
DK has too much dead cap that the team would be willing to absorb, at least for the next couple seasons. He should be considered in 2020 though if he hasn't improved his game.
Nick Vigil, Ogbuehi, Nickerson, Ericson, and Hopkins are all on rookie contracts. It's not very expensive to keep them, but none of them should be starters for 2018 IMO. And for Ogbuehi especially, it's put up or shut up time in 2018 because if he sucks again, no reason to pick up his 5th year option and let him go elsewhere in 2019.

I think people are too hard on Shawn Williams because they want someone who is better in coverage and causing turnovers. He's still a solid safety, but the Bengals would be wise to find someone better in pass coverage than Williams. He's an in-the-box safety who should rotate in and out as needed. I'd also like to see him get some snaps as a nickel LB.

[*PhilHos*]

(01-17-2018, 12:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Why stop there?  As long as we're getting rid of mediocre players from the payroll, let's clean the house!

To your list, add:

Shawn Williams (not that great, injury prone)
Dre K  (wasted money)
Kevin Minter (we can do better)
Nick Vigil (face it, he's not developing into a star)
Hardy Nickerson (can't live off of Dad's name alone)
Cedric Ogbuehi (no explanation needed)
Fisher  (see above)
Alex Ericson (he blows as return man)
Pat Sims (we can do better)
Trey Hopkins (he sucked, even before he was injured)

*This is already assuming that we are allowing A. Smith, J. Hill, R. Bodine to all walk in FA

*ALSO*  Shit or get off the pot, when it comes to McCarron.  Trade the man, get something of value!

Here's the thing (and anothe rissue with the Bengals' approach to free agency): these players know our "system". Ergo, they - according to the Bengals' way of thinking - are better than any player that is not clearly heads-and-shoulders better just because they are already familiar with our playbook and the way we do things.

It doesn't matter if a player who is comparable could actually do better in our system, it only matters that he doesn't KNOW our system and he's not a clearly better player. Of course, this just brings us back to the scouting/coaching thing again and we know where that will get us. 

[SunsetBengal]

(01-17-2018, 12:44 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Pat Sims and Kevin Minter don't need cut. They are set to hit FA in March.
DK has too much dead cap that the team would be willing to absorb, at least for the next couple seasons. He should be considered in 2020 though if he hasn't improved his game.
Nick Vigil, Ogbuehi, Nickerson, Ericson, and Hopkins are all on rookie contracts. It's not very expensive to keep them, but none of them should be starters for 2018 IMO. And for Ogbuehi especially, it's put up or shut up time in 2018 because if he sucks again, no reason to pick up his 5th year option and let him go elsewhere in 2019.

I think people are too hard on Shawn Williams because they want someone who is better in coverage and causing turnovers. He's still a solid safety, but the Bengals would be wise to find someone better in pass coverage than Williams. He's an in-the-box safety who should rotate in and out as needed. I'd also like to see him get some snaps as a nickel LB.

Williams has been a Bengal for 5 seasons.  He has failed to develop into anything more than average, when he's healthy.  This is what people are talking about, when they complain about the Bengals putting too much value into players simply because they drafted them.

You are proposing that Vigil, Ogbuehi, Nickerson, Ericson, and Hopkins should all be allowed to take up a roster spot simply because they are cheap?  That is still feeding into the existing offseason mentality that many of us would like to see change.  By that logic, the Bengals should just as easily roll the dice with some new stock, those spots can just as easily be filled by other late round picks and UDFAs.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-17-2018, 12:46 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's the thing (and anothe rissue with the Bengals' approach to free agency): these players know our "system". Ergo, they - according to the Bengals' way of thinking - are better than any player that is not clearly heads-and-shoulders better just because they are already familiar with our playbook and the way we do things.

It doesn't matter if a player who is comparable could actually do better in our system, it only matters that he doesn't KNOW our system and he's not a clearly better player. Of course, this just brings us back to the scouting/coaching thing again and we know where that will get us. 

No player on the roster "knew" the Bengals system, before they were on the team either. 

In line with the thinking that "The Bengals need to alter their offseason approach", blowing it up is altering the way they do things! 

[*ochocincos*]

(01-17-2018, 12:53 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Williams has been a Bengal for 5 seasons.  He has failed to develop into anything more than average, when he's healthy.  This is what people are talking about, when they complain about the Bengals putting too much value into players simply because they drafted them.

You are proposing that Vigil, Ogbuehi, Nickerson, Ericson, and Hopkins should all be allowed to take up a roster spot simply because they are cheap?  That is still feeding into the existing offseason mentality that many of us would like to see change.  By that logic, the Bengals should just as easily roll the dice with some new stock, those spots can just as easily be filled by other late round picks and UDFAs.

If MJ, Hopkins, Williams, LaFell, Jones, Vigil, Ogbuehi, Ericson, and Nickerson are all cut, that's nine spots the Bengals would have to replace. Add in Minter, Sims, Bodine, Hill, Winston, Huber, Eifert, Andre, and Chris Smith, and you're talking about nine more. That totals 18 players.
At best, you'll see the Bengals get 10 draft picks (unless they trade back to acquire more).
Say all 10 make the roster, that's still eight spots available.
The Bengals will not sign eight new FAs, let alone all of them being better than what they have.

I don't mind guys like Hopkins and Vigil being depth. They just are poor starters. The big thing (for me anyway) is freeing up the cap hogs who are underperformers like the three I mentioned. You can't replace everyone in one offseason, so you have to identify a select few to start with and add new faces over a few years.

[fredtoast]

(01-17-2018, 12:53 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You are proposing that Vigil, Ogbuehi, Nickerson, Ericson, and Hopkins should all be allowed to take up a roster spot simply because they are cheap?  That is still feeding into the existing offseason mentality that many of us would like to see change.  By that logic, the Bengals should just as easily roll the dice with some new stock, those spots can just as easily be filled by other late round picks and UDFAs.

I think the point is that when you start looking at replacing these guys with other guys the same price you can't find anything better.

It is harder than many people think to roll over half of the roster every single year.  Teams benefit from cohesion.