Chris Smith enigma

[BoomerFan]

Should be a reasonably priced DE to re-sign. We have needs to draft for elsewhere so this guy seems like a smart move to keep. I do agree that he impressed more in the early going though as others have pointed out we started using him differently.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-18-2018, 12:15 AM)CincyKid Wrote: sounds like Paul G was just trying to get all of his best rushers on the field regardless of position

Then what the $*@)@ was MJ doing at RDE....ever??????

MJ actually did ok at DT in a rotational basis, but he played more and more at RDE and Willis only got his real shot against the Ravens and I think he had three TFL.  Lawson is a true third down rush end that had a limited repertoire of pass rush moves and once the league saw him a few times, they knew better how to slow him down.

Willis and Smith could rotate very well at LDE, but they still had Dunlap out there for what seemed like 95% of snaps (again).  It isn't that Dunlap isn't talented, but he might be more effective with a few snaps off here and there and be more fresh down the stretch.  

Playing the incredibly ineffective MJ at RDE despite having Willis (who blocked a punt, so don't give me any crap about having to earn it on special teams), Lawson, and Smith for that spot was classic, stupid Marv.   

[impactplaya]

He was OK as a situational pass rusher. He lacked the upper body strength to simply bull.rush from.the inside and disrupt the pocket .
Has some decent bend and can flatten out getting to the qb.
He will.be in a training camp.battle this season. Not a lock especially if the Bengals pursue another FA DE

[fredtoast]

(01-20-2018, 08:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Then what the $*@)@ was MJ doing at RDE....ever??????

Because MJ was much more productive than Willis.  Smith hit the QB more often than MJ, but it looks like MJ was better against the run with more TFL and tackles.

Snaps played per.......sack.....tkl.......QB hit....TFL
Johnson.....................137.....14.0......97.9.....57.1
Willis.........................360.....14.4.....180.0....72.0
Smith........................134.....15.4.......44.6....80.0

D-line is a position where it is hard to valeu the worth in just stats when you go beyond just rushing the passer.  There are no real stats for setting the edge, turning plays back to the inside, or eating up blockers to keep the LBs clean.

Also can't find the numbers on "QB hurries" for 2017.  The link I used to use still just has 2016.  Looking for another.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-21-2018, 12:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because he was a better player than Willis

Snaps played per.......sack.....tkl.......QB hit....TFL
Johnson.....................137.....14.0......97.9.....57.1
Willis.........................360.....14.4.....180.0....72.0

Should have known you would chime in to cover for MJ.  Sorry, these numbers don't mean crap.  Johnson played at tackle, also, and he simply doesn't generate the pressure of Willis.  Willis had a sack taken away from a penalty and that alone, with his limited snaps, would have greatly changed his "impact per snap"...and what of your "hurries", etc?

Willis can also rush from the LDE or RDE spot.  Johnson was a complete waste of space lined up at RDE.  He is nowhere near the player of Willis.  He might have been in his prime, but he is a slow, plodding, one-move player now and a complete waste.  Great guy, dud of a RDE.  

Watch the Baltimore game.  You just got a small taste of what Willis could have been doing all season.  

[fredtoast]

(01-21-2018, 12:36 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Watch the Baltimore game.  You just got a small taste of what Willis could have been doing all season.  

WTF are you talking about?  Willis played 25 snaps that game.  He played a lot more snaps against Texans (45), Bears (33), and Vikings (31).  He played at least 20 defensive snaps in 11 of the 16 games.

So what was stopping him from being so great in all those other games where he got asmuch playing time?

(01-21-2018, 12:36 PM)SHRacerX Wrote:   Johnson was a complete waste of space lined up at RDE.  He is nowhere near the player of Willis.  He might have been in his prime, but he is a slow, plodding, one-move player now and a complete waste. 

He outproduced Willis.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-22-2018, 02:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: WTF are you talking about?  Willis played 25 snaps that game.  He played a lot more snaps against Texans (45), Bears (33), and Vikings (31).  He played at least 20 defensive snaps in 11 of the 16 games.

So what was stopping him from being so great in all those other games where he got asmuch playing time?



He outproduced Willis.

25 snaps and he had three TFLs?  And are you counting special teams snaps in those other games?  Because that is not the comparison.

And MJ had 59 snaps that last game and got one whopping tackle.  Yeah, he really outproduced Willis.     

[BengalFanInNJ]

(01-22-2018, 02:03 AM)fredtoast Wrote: WTF are you talking about?  Willis played 25 snaps that game.  He played a lot more snaps against Texans (45), Bears (33), and Vikings (31).  He played at least 20 defensive snaps in 11 of the 16 games.

So what was stopping him from being so great in all those other games where he got asmuch playing time?



He outproduced Willis.

After several years of watching MJ, you know what you are going to get. Willis is a rookie and he should get better with more playing time. Perhaps giving Willis more playing time will allow him to surpass the production of MJ. Granted, maybe he doesn't progress but you never know. I'm ok with MJ getting more time than Willis this past year, but next year, Willis should see more. 

[fredtoast]

(01-22-2018, 09:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: 25 snaps and he had three TFLs?  And are you counting special teams snaps in those other games?  Because that is not the comparison.

And MJ had 59 snaps that last game and got one whopping tackle.  Yeah, he really outproduced Willis.     

I only counted defensive snaps according to profootballrefrence.com.

MJ outproduced Willis per snap over the entire year.  You can't judge an entire season based on just one game.

[Socal Bengals fan]

MJ is the DE version of John Thornton..should have been released years ago and definitely not worth his salary

[fredtoast]

(01-22-2018, 03:20 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: MJ is the DE version of John Thornton..should have been released years ago and definitely not worth his salary

MJ is the DE version of Domata Pego.  Fans hate on him for no good reason.

[Shake n Blake]

(01-22-2018, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: MJ is the DE version of Domata Pego.  Fans hate on him for no good reason.

I don't hate him and I rarely say anything at all about the guy, but he hasn't lived up to his last contract. We could do better.

He's outright invisible. A lot. Considering that he has the 30th highest average salary at his position, that's bad. He's being paid like a DE1 and he's producing like a poor DE2.

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-22-2018, 01:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I only counted defensive snaps according to profootballrefrence.com.

MJ outproduced Willis per snap over the entire year.  You can't judge an entire season based on just one game.

I can when that game gave him his greatest opportunity, and although you can look at stats and try to show MJ is anything other than a waste of space my eyes showed a horribly ineffective RDE that is 30 years old and releasing his salary could be used on better talent.  

There was one sack where MJ was doing his "same ol, same ol" super-wide outside rush and the tackle just rode him 10 yards upfield, about 5 yards past the QB and the QB held the ball a long time and when Dunlap and Geno pressured him, he ran directly in to Johnson's not-even-remotely-in-the-play path for a sack.  The tackle looked at his QB like "you kidding me" and MJ got up and celebrated the gift.  It was hilarious. I even said to myself "Fred just got one for the stat books".

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-22-2018, 09:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: 25 snaps and he had three TFLs?  And are you counting special teams snaps in those other games?  Because that is not the comparison.

And MJ had 59 snaps that last game and got one whopping tackle.  Yeah, he really outproduced Willis.     

Fred does this a lot. Uses stats to try and prove a player is better than what they truly are.

Watching both MJ and Willis, Willis is clearly more talented. Just like Dunlap was when MJ went to Tampa.

I like to use the eye test with players, stats do not tell the whole story.

[*bfine32*]

(01-22-2018, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: MJ is the DE version of Domata Pego.  Fans hate on him for no good reason.

Man I loved Pego

As to the side discussion that has become about MJ. I love the dude; he's had the best ability that a player can have while in stripes. Availability, he's played in 126 of 128 regular season games in his 2 stints on the roster.

I do wonder why we never switched sides with Dunlap and him. I would love to see what Dunlap can do/could have done from the weak side

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2018, 09:48 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I can when that game gave him his greatest opportunity, and although you can look at stats and try to show MJ is anything other than a waste of space my eyes showed a horribly ineffective RDE that is 30 years old and releasing his salary could be used on better talent. 

Well here is the problem with dpending on your eyes.

(01-20-2018, 08:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:  Willis only got his real shot against the Ravens

You end up making claims that are 100% wrong.  Willis played 25 snaps in that Ravens game, and he played as many, and sometimes more, in five other games.

When you say you depend on your eyes what you really mean is "I see what I want to see and ignore the rest".  You hated MJ before the season even started so you just told yourself that your eyes saw something that they did not.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(01-23-2018, 05:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Man I loved Pego

As to the side discussion that has become about MJ. I love the dude; he's had the best ability that a player can have while in stripes. Availability, he's played in 126 of 128 regular season games in his 2 stints on the roster.

I do wonder why we never switched sides with Dunlap and him. I would love to see what Dunlap can do/could have done from the weak side

Yeah, that Pego guy was something else.

But good point about MJ staying healthy, he was really only hurt the one year in Tampa.

Always wondered what Dunlap could do on the blindside of the QB. Don't understand why they never switch it up either.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(01-23-2018, 06:48 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, that Pego guy was something else.

But good point about MJ staying healthy, he was really only hurt the one year in Tampa.

Always wondered what Dunlap could do on the blindside of the QB. Don't understand why they never switch it up either.

They have the last couple of years; his sack of Austin Davis was definitely off the blindside; I could have sworn that I've seen the highlight but can't find it anywhere

[*SHRacerX*]

(01-23-2018, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well here is the problem with dpending on your eyes.


You end up making claims that are 100% wrong.  Willis played 25 snaps in that Ravens game, and he played as many, and sometimes more, in five other games.

When you say you depend on your eyes what you really mean is "I see what I want to see and ignore the rest".  You hated MJ before the season even started so you just told yourself that your eyes saw something that they did not.

Ok, then if you are going to claim that I don't know what I'm watching please break down the pass-rushing opportunities the two had.  Was Willis in to stuff the run on first and second down?  Was he given the same number of pass rushing opps?  Again, I said TFLs, which imply they aren't on the QB, but a RB or receiver (in this case, they were RB).  

And I have never hated MJ.  I just don't think he has the ability to be a presence off the edge whatsoever.  One move, no speed, etc.  He DID, however, seem to do pretty well in his limited snaps at pass-rushing DT on third downs.  In typical Bengal fashion, they put him right back at RDE.  Where he did next to nothing.  

[fredtoast]

(01-24-2018, 10:49 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Ok, then if you are going to claim that I don't know what I'm watching please break down the pass-rushing opportunities the two had. 

I have already proven you are wrong with your claim that the Ravens game was the "only chance he had".  I have also shown that MJ was more productive on a "per-snap" basis than Willis.

If you want to re-establish your credibility then the burden is on you.  I have no reason to do any more analysis.