Bodine = Dalton???

[Tiger Teeth]

(02-05-2018, 05:37 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Middle of the pack QUALITY player.

Bodine and "quality" don't belong in the same sentence.  I think there's no sense in debating him any further, you'd be wasting your time.  

[fredtoast]

(02-03-2018, 02:07 AM)PDub80 Wrote:  He’s a middle of the pack, to back of the pack quality player

There are 35 active QBs who have at least 1000 pass attempts since Dalton entered the league in 2011.  Among those 35 Dalton ranks

2nd in rushing tds
3rd in "4th quarter comebacks" (per Profootballreference.com)
4th in "4th quarter game winning drives" (per Profootballreference.com)
5th in lowest fumble rate
6th in wins
9th in passing tds
10th in passing yards
14th in passer rating

and most important.....FIRST in receiving tds.

[*bfine32*]

Bodine does not equal Dalton and the difference is obvious,,,,,

Bodine is responsible for his bad play, Dalton is not

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2018, 07:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Bodine is responsible for his bad play, Dalton is not

Exactly.  You can't blame Dalton for Bodine's poor play.

[*bfine32*]

(02-07-2018, 07:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Exactly.  You can't blame Dalton for Bodine's poor play.

Or the simpleton could read the quote as saying Bodine is responsible for Andy's bad play, but most understand what was stated. 

[PDub80]

(02-05-2018, 05:37 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Middle of the pack QUALITY player.

(02-05-2018, 05:42 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: Bodine and "quality" don't belong in the same sentence.  I think there's no sense in debating him any further, you'd be wasting your time.  

Look, uh, guys, I'm not a grammar Nazi by any means, but you should learn the difference between...

What you think you read: "Middle of the pack, quality player"

&

What I wrote: "Middle of the pack quality player".

^ Those two sentences don't mean the same thing due to the "," in one and lack of "," in the other.

Now, usually I wouldn't care except that you're trying to poke fun at my idea/post and, well, you know...... 

[PDub80]

(02-05-2018, 04:26 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I show you how his stats were consistent during his 4 best seasons and you come back with THIS nonsense?

I guess it's my fault for giving your intelligence too much credit. My bad. Won't happen again. 

Dude, you gave me statistics that I've looked up and gone over 100 times. I'm a Bengals superfan and you're throwing basic Andy Dalton facts at me that show, what? That he's an 80-something rated career passer who had one miraculous 1/2 to 3/4 season out of 7 where he was a 25% better player?

1 of his 4 best seasons you brought up.... He has 7 by the way.... is grossly disproportionate to his typical performances. That 1.... 1 blip on the radar shouldn't be clinged to as if it is coming back around again. It could, yes, but Bodine could also just as easily step up and have 1 great season with a decent coach.

^ My suggestion/hope makes just as much sense as the people thinking Dalton is going to reproduce his miraculous (at this point, that's what it is... miraculous) season. If Bodine plays 25% better, he's in the probowls, too!

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2018, 07:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Or the simpleton could read the quote as saying Bodine is responsible for Andy's bad play, but most understand what was stated. 

So why are we discussing who is to blame for the bad play?

The point is that Bodine plays much worse than Dalton.  Don't see what the blame has to do with anything.

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2018, 08:18 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Dude, you gave me statistics that I've looked up and gone over 100 times. I'm a Bengals superfan and you're throwing basic Andy Dalton facts at me that show, what? That he's an 80-something rated career passer who had one miraculous 1/2 to 3/4 season out of 7 where he was a 25% better player?

1 of his 4 best seasons you brought up.... He has 7 by the way.... is grossly disproportionate to his typical performances. That 1.... 1 blip on the radar shouldn't be clinged to as if it is coming back around again. It could, yes, but Bodine could also just as easily step up and have 1 great season with a decent coach.

^ My suggestion/hope makes just as much sense as the people thinking Dalton is going to reproduce his miraculous (at this point, that's what it is... miraculous) season. If Bodine plays 25% better, he's in the probowls, too!

Wow, it really kills you that Dalton played so well in 2015.

But a player who has played at an elite level before is much more likely to play at an elite level again than a player who has never been elite.  The fact that you can not admit that is sad.

[PDub80]

(02-07-2018, 11:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So why are we discussing who is to blame for the bad play?

The point is that Bodine plays much worse than Dalton.  Don't see what the blame has to do with anything.

I made a strong case that they play kind of similarly over an entire season on average. The Bengals perhaps agree. I see better than I hear (thanks for that, Marvin) so we'll have to wait until FA period starts for that to be affirmed or not.

[PDub80]

(02-07-2018, 11:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wow, it really kills you that Dalton played so well in 2015.

But a player who has played at an elite level before is much more likely to play at an elite level again than a player who has never been elite.  The fact that you can not admit that is sad.

- It doesn't kill me at all! I want Andy Dalton to play great and am happy for him when he does! I have every interest in him playing at a high level. Rooting against Andy Dalton would put me  in the same category of people who are wanting Trump to fail. If Andy does well, it suits my interests as a Bengals fan. Not only that, but especially because he's a great person. An A+ person, in fact. There isn't a finer human being who's ever been associated with the Bengals organization, IMO. I have an Andy Dalton shirt that I wear to games or on game days sometimes. I WANT him to succeed!!!

But that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore reality, which is that so far in his career Andy Dalton has under-performed to his potential with the exception of 2015. I think a case can be made for Bodine as well - who has had a sketchy coach his entire career where as Dalton has had strong ones. They have under-performed in incredibly similar fashion.

- I also disagree in your steps of logic in coming up with "a player who has played... elite level... more likely..." etc. That's not true. I think that throughout the history of sports we can find more guys who were flashes in the pan and petered out more than we do guys who flashed and then flashed again after a few seasons. Athletes careers are not like weather patterns and I see very little correlation between he did it once, so he can do it again actually happening vs not.

^ The above might be a really fun thread idea, BTW. Athletes who had spikes in performance, fell down and then got up... or never got up.


- I also hold fast to my original point...

If people wanted Jeremy Hill gone after a really strong rookie year followed by 2 bad ones, why is Andy Dalton immune from that criticism?

Why is Tyler Eifert hated on after an outstanding season? Because he was hurt for two years? He isn't hurting himself on purpose. Yet, people want him removed from the team. At least Eifert isn't on the field sucking and causing them to lose.


Michael Johnson had some outstanding years as a Bengal... Yet, people want him cut two years after?

Bradon LaFell has also had very strong seasons. But, he gets crapped on after a rough one. His position is one where he is depending on the QB to not be so erratic, BTW. And people KNOW this and instead of looking at the crappy QB play, they blame the WR and excuse the QB.

Russel Bodine has had one of the worst O-Line coaches in the league his entire career in Cincy. His coach CLEARLY was to blame for scheme and protection plan issues. Yet, people think Bodine has no potential to get better? Andy Dalton had a 2015 that was basically 25% better than his other 6 seasons average. Russell Bodine can't be 25% better and play outstanding?

Want me to keep going with the hypocrisy?

My point is simple: The QB is a great person, had 1 great year, and 6 average to below average ones, while blowing big time in prime time, playoff, or meaningful games. He can beat the tar out of San Diego in the regular season, but fills his pants in the playoffs two weeks later against them and people don't get on him the way they do others =... even though his position determines the outcome of the game more than any other on the team. He gets creamed by the Steelers or Patriots, but destroys crappy Browns and Rams teams? Yet fans seem to want him to stay while other players have similar seasons/performances and people are up in arms as to why they are still in Cincinnati. It makes no sense to me.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 01:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I made a strong case that they play kind of similarly over an entire season on average.

No you didn't.  Andy Dalton has gone to multiple Pro Bowls and his stats place him top ten in production among active QBs since he entered the league.

Bodine has never come close to anything like that.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 02:25 PM)PDub80 Wrote: But that doesn't mean I'm going to ignore reality, which is that so far in his career Andy Dalton has under-performed to his potential with the exception of 2015.

Your opinion is not reality.  Dalton has gone to three Pro Bowls and 2015 was not one of them ('11, '14, '16).  He has finished in the top 10 in passing tds 3 times and 2015 was not one of them ('12, '13, '17).  So in his six seasons OTHER THAN 2015 he has either gone to the pro Bowl or finished top 10 in td passes EVERY SINGLE YEAR.

(02-07-2018, 07:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There are 35 active QBs who have at least 1000 pass attempts since Dalton entered the league in 2011.  Among those 35 Dalton ranks

2nd in rushing tds
3rd in "4th quarter comebacks" (per Profootballreference.com)
4th in "4th quarter game winning drives" (per Profootballreference.com)
5th in lowest fumble rate
6th in wins
9th in passing tds
10th in passing yards
14th in passer rating

Those are not "one year" numbers.  Those are "seven year" numbers.  If you remove his 2015 numbers (which makes no sense) his stats would drop, but so would the stats of every other QB in the league if you pretended his best season never happened.

If you think Bodine's career performance ranks him this high among his peers then you are either a troll or completely clueless.

[BenZoo2]

(02-08-2018, 02:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No you didn't.  Andy Dalton has gone to multiple Pro Bowls and his stats place him top ten in production among active QBs since he entered the league.

Bodine has never come close to anything like that.

Pro bowls don’t mean much these days. The super bowl qb that year doesn’t play and others typically sit out. Take out alternate selections and how many does he have?


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[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 02:25 PM)PDub80 Wrote: At least Eifert isn't on the field sucking and causing them to lose.

Don't even try to claim you are a Dalton fan after making a comment like this.

Dalton's ranking among current active QBs since he entered the league in 2011

6th in total wins
3rd in 4th quarter comebacks
4th in 4th quarter game winning drives.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 02:56 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Pro bowls don’t mean much these days.  The super bowl qb that year doesn’t play and others typically sit out.  Take out alternate selections and how many does he have?


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How many has Bodine been selected to INCLUDING as an alternate.

Even taking out the 2 Super Bowl QBs and a few more for injury and the Pro Bowl QBs are still in the top 10-15 in the league.

Dalton did not go to the Pro Bowl in his best season (2015) so he has made the Pro Bowl in half of his other 6 seasons.

C'mon trolls.  Let me see one of you claim that Bodine can match this.

[BenZoo2]

(02-08-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How many has Bodine been selected to INCLUDING as an alternate.

That’s not my point fred and you know it. Pro bowl selections mean less these days.

I don’t think blodine has been to any though


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[*bfine32*]

(02-07-2018, 11:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So why are we discussing who is to blame for the bad play?

The point is that Bodine plays much worse than Dalton.  Don't see what the blame has to do with anything.

So in Fred Logic, no one is to blame (assign responsibility for a fault)  for bad play? 

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 09:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So in Fred Logic, no one is to blame (assign responsibility for a fault)  for bad play? 

Not sure what you are trying to say.  Maybe you can clear it up for me.

First of all I feel that Dalton has much more good play than Bodine and much less bad play.  Before we go any further do you agree with this?

Who do you feel deserves the credit for Daltons good play and the blame for his bad play?

Who do you feel deserves the credit for Bodines good play and the blame for his bad play?

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2018, 03:11 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: That’s not my point fred and you know it.  Pro bowl selections mean less these days.

My point is that even if they mean less they mean less for both QBs and centers.  So it is still valid to compare the number of Pro Bowl appearances.