MNQB article on Dalton and the Bengals

[Shake n Blake]

(08-27-2015, 11:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: I don't think he played that badly at Indy.....especially considering the supporting cast.  The first two and the 2nd half of SD....absolutely agree.l

Andy didn't throw any INT's and did a decent job managing the game against the Colts. The results were the same. Hill & Bernard combined for 53 yards (3.3 YPC), the o-line didn't block well and the defense gave up a season high in pass yardage (our CB's looked like scrubs) while allowing Dan Herron to have a career day.

People say all the time that the rest of the team is stacked and only Andy holds them back. If that were the case, the game Dalton had against the Colts should've been good enough. He wasn't good, but did he hold Hill/Gio back? Did he make the defense collapse?

Instead, the run game and defense (that are normally excellent) were AWOL as usual.

[Ricky Spanish]

(08-27-2015, 02:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even if we win the Super Bowl some people willinsist that it was because Andy had the best roster in the league to carry him there.  And we would win "in spite of Dalton".

They have been winning in spite of Dalton since he got here

[CornerBlitz]

(08-27-2015, 11:43 PM)Wyche Wrote: I don't think he played that badly at Indy.....especially considering the supporting cast.  The first two and the 2nd half of SD....absolutely agree.l

Indy might have been his best playoff performance. You want to know how he did?

18-35 for 155 yards with a fumble and no TDs QB rating of 63 and a QBR of 20. 

In 4 playoff games that is his best playoff performance...just goes to show you he's played like a complete and utter bum in the playoffs. We all know his cumulative stats in the playoffs so no point to reiterate that. Everyone knows that he has been by far the worst player on the field in the playoffs during this 4 years. Not sure why the Dalton lovers have a tough time admitting this.

Dalton is arguably the worst starting QB in playoff history. Much easier to admit this and argue about other points regarding Dalton than his playoff woes.

[Sweetness]

(08-28-2015, 01:41 AM)Ricky Spanish Wrote: They have been winning in spite of Dalton since he got here

I'll give you Dalton hasn't played great in the playoffs/prime time games. But to say they've made the playoffs and had 10+ wins for 4 years in spite of him is just kinda of silly.

[CornerBlitz]

(08-28-2015, 01:52 AM)Sweetness Wrote: I'll give you Dalton hasn't played great in the playoffs/prime time games. But to say they've made the playoffs and had 10+ wins for 4 years in spite of him is just kinda of silly.

Put it this way. If you look at our roster over the past 4 years and you name weak links, QB would have to be right up there. Most of our other position groups are above average or very good. QB is average at best and last year was below average so to say we won in spite of Dalton isn't that far off.

[CornerBlitz]

(08-28-2015, 12:58 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: People say all the time that the rest of the team is stacked and only Andy holds them back. If that were the case, the game Dalton had against the Colts should've been good enough.

First off he had a pretty lousy game against the Colts, but it was better than his other games playoff games i suppose. 

Here is a better way to answer this question about Dalton holding the team back. Rank the other position groups especially on offense.

RBs- I'd honestly say top 5. Hill and Bernard are awesome
WRs- probably top 5 or 6 as well. 
O-Line- PFF continue to rank this unit very high and as we all know the line is full of high draft picks that have played well. I'd say over the last 5 years you could definitely make the case that we have had a top 10 offensive line if not top 5.
TE- Average is probably on point here...I think with Eifert healthy this could become above average as well.

So in general our offense is highly talented....you could make the case that besides QB we have one of the top 5 talented offenses in the NFL. 

So to use your words "people say this team is stacked and dalton is holding them back"....well based upon the roster analysis it seems pretty damn accurate to me. Wouldn't you agree? I already know you won't because you will make some random excuses to give dalton a pass.

[Sweetness]

(08-28-2015, 01:59 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Put it this way. If you look at our roster over the past 4 years and you name weak links, QB would have to be right up there. Most of our other position groups are above average or very good. QB is average at best and last year was below average so to say we won in spite of Dalton isn't that far off.

Last year, I'll completely give you Dalton didn't appear to be an abovery average quarterback. But to say he hasn't been above average (based on stats) over his first 3 years is simply just false. Im not a Dalton believer at all, but to say for all 4 years we have won in spite of him seems to be way far off and untrue given actual stats. And outside of OL and our RB last year, I don't really think "most" of our position groups were very good. I haven't looked at any stats to back that part up though.

[Fresno B]

(08-27-2015, 02:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even if we win the Super Bowl some people willinsist that it was because Andy had the best roster in the league to carry him there.  And we would win "in spite of Dalton".

Do you think Dalton resembles anything above average in the playoffs?

This is why people say "in spite".

[*PhilHos*]

(08-27-2015, 10:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: In any given year you have 20-32 starting QBs that are better than Trent Dilfer and/or Brad Johnson...so every year for the past 15 years we've lived in a reality where almost every team "could win the Super Bowl" each year.

Meh.  Mikey and Marvin have had the relative luxury of 2 decent and reliable QBs and instead of having 12 Super Bowl rings (because Palmer and Dalton never finished below Dilfer/Johnson standards....er, save 2008) they have zero.  Amazing how that works.

But seriously folks, when is this argument going to end?  How many teams this year have starting QBs that you are SURE are worse than Dilfer/Johnson?  Let's see...who are the worst I can think of....

YES...WORSE
Browns
Redskins

MAYBE WORSE
Bills
Jets
Texans

Ok, so 2 NFL teams are starting worse QBs than Dilfer/Johnson and there are 3 in the maybe pile (by my eye) so we should have 27 NFL teams all talking about how they can win the Super Bowl this year because 2 crappy QBs won it 15 years ago.  How about we think of the worst QBs to make a Super Bowl?  Rex Grossman made the Super Bowl in 2006 so if you have a QB that can throw less than 5 INTs per half then there is no reason you CAN'T at least be conference champs, right?

Just goes to show that you winning a super bowl requires a TEAM not a QB.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-28-2015, 02:06 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: First off he had a pretty lousy game against the Colts, but it was better than his other games playoff games i suppose. 

Here is a better way to answer this question about Dalton holding the team back. Rank the other position groups especially on offense.

RBs- I'd honestly say top 5. Hill and Bernard are awesome
WRs- probably top 5 or 6 as well. 
O-Line- PFF continue to rank this unit very high and as we all know the line is full of high draft picks that have played well. I'd say over the last 5 years you could definitely make the case that we have had a top 10 offensive line if not top 5.
TE- Average is probably on point here...I think with Eifert healthy this could become above average as well.

So in general our offense is highly talented....you could make the case that besides QB we have one of the top 5 talented offenses in the NFL. 

So to use your words "people say this team is stacked and dalton is holding them back"....well based upon the roster analysis it seems pretty damn accurate to me. Wouldn't you agree? I already know you won't because you will make some random excuses to give dalton a pass.

And yet, these areas that you rate higher than Dalton have failed just as much, if not worse, in the playoffs, but you seem to give them a break. Why is that? I would think that the players and areas that are better should be held to a HIGHER standard, not lower.

(08-28-2015, 03:01 AM)Fresno B Wrote: Do you think Dalton resembles anything above average in the playoffs?

This is why people say "in spite".

Except we haven't won in the playoffs. You can't say we have won "in spite of Dalton" but then claim you are talking about the playoffs. You obviously don't understand what the phrase "in spite of" means.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-28-2015, 02:06 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: First off he had a pretty lousy game against the Colts, but it was better than his other games playoff games i suppose. 

Here is a better way to answer this question about Dalton holding the team back. Rank the other position groups especially on offense.

RBs- I'd honestly say top 5. Hill and Bernard are awesome
WRs- probably top 5 or 6 as well. 
O-Line- PFF continue to rank this unit very high and as we all know the line is full of high draft picks that have played well. I'd say over the last 5 years you could definitely make the case that we have had a top 10 offensive line if not top 5.
TE- Average is probably on point here...I think with Eifert healthy this could become above average as well.

So in general our offense is highly talented....you could make the case that besides QB we have one of the top 5 talented offenses in the NFL. 

So to use your words "people say this team is stacked and dalton is holding them back"....well based upon the roster analysis it seems pretty damn accurate to me. Wouldn't you agree? I already know you won't because you will make some random excuses to give dalton a pass.

Why don't you try quoting my entire post and telling me how the rest of these top 5 positions fared in the playoff game last year?

After all, it's the playoffs we're talking about, not regular season performance.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-28-2015, 02:11 AM)Sweetness Wrote: Last year, I'll completely give you Dalton didn't appear to be an abovery average quarterback.  But to say he hasn't been above average (based on stats) over his first 3 years is simply just false. Im not a Dalton believer at all, but to say for all 4 years we have won in spite of him seems to be way far off and untrue given actual stats. And outside of OL and our RB last year, I don't really think "most" of our position groups were very good. I haven't looked at any stats to back that part up though.

Dalton ranked 13th and 15th in passer rating in '12 and '13. That's above average most definitely. Especially considering that 40+ QB's qualify for that category every year, not just 32.

Dalton has choked in the playoffs, just as the rest of the team has. Some just can't come to grips with that. The average QB is somehow held to a higher standard than his elite (until playoffs) teammates. 

[fredtoast]

The Bengals almost never win "in spite of" Dalton. They are only 8-16 when he has a passer rating under 70. However they are elite (22-4-1) when he plays well (passer rating over 90) and about average (9-7) when he plays average (passer rating in 70's or 80's).

Also Dalton is above average (13th) in games with a passer rating of 90+ since he came into the league.

[djs7685]

(08-31-2015, 12:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals almost never win "in spite of" Dalton.  They are only 8-16 when he has a passer rating under 70.  However they are elite (22-4-1) when he plays well (passer rating over 90) and about average (9-7) when he plays average (passer rating in 70's or 80's).

Also Dalton is above average (13th) in games with a passer rating of 90+ since he came into the league.

Agree with the first part, that's why I'm always saying that if Andy happens to be the only guy on the team to improve just a little bit, we're in much better shape than any other single player improving. We almost never lose whenever he plays at a high level, and that's a very good thing. When Andy is on, it seems as though the rest of the team rarely folds. The only thing that's slightly worrisome about that statistic is that 2 of those 4 losses and the 1 tie all happened this most recent year. Hopefully that isn't something that happens more this season.

The second part is misleading. How many other QBs have had 64 chances starting to amass that many games of 90+ passer rating? I'm assuming there are a few young guys that regularly hit 90+ more frequently but haven't been in the league as long.

[fredtoast]

(08-31-2015, 12:40 PM)djs7685 Wrote: The second part is misleading. How many other QBs have had 64 chances starting to amass that many games of 90+ passer rating? I'm assuming there are a few young guys that regularly hit 90+ more frequently but haven't been in the league as long.

Among the guys who started more than a handful of games Kaepernick and Luck are the only ones behind him who are putting up 90+ games at a higher rate.

[djs7685]

(08-31-2015, 12:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Among the guys who started more than a handful of games Kaepernick and Luck are the only ones behind him who are putting up 90+ games at a higher rate.

Did you go through pro football reference and count every single QB that has played over the last 4 years, or do you have a chart of this somewhere?

You saying he's "above average" in 90+ passer rating games is highly misleading. 13th out of how many guys that have started most games in 4 years? You can't just count every single player that has started a game and act like it's fair to throw out a volume number like "games over 90+ passer rating" without it being very misleading. Andy has had 64 chances, how many guys on your list behind him have had even close to that number?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-28-2015, 01:44 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Indy might have been his best playoff performance. You want to know how he did?

18-35 for 155 yards with a fumble and no TDs QB rating of 63 and a QBR of 20. 

In 4 playoff games that is his best playoff performance...just goes to show you he's played like a complete and utter bum in the playoffs. We all know his cumulative stats in the playoffs so no point to reiterate that. Everyone knows that he has been by far the worst player on the field in the playoffs during this 4 years. Not sure why the Dalton lovers have a tough time admitting this.

Dalton is arguably the worst starting QB in playoff history. Much easier to admit this and argue about other points regarding Dalton than his playoff woes.

Yeah.....I even said, aside from the first half of the SD game, he has been awful in the postseason.  That said, so has the rest of the team.....it's a Mediocre Marv hallmark.  I'm not making excuses, Andy is more than culpable here, but to act like Rey Maualuga didn't get OWNED by Owen Daniels, costing us dearly.....or to act like avoiding our best playmaker for a half was some sort of brilliant coaching move.....or to act like the case of the dropsies Gresh got helped us......or to act like the decision to park Green-Ellis after a measly 5.3 YPC avg was a good move......you get the gist....is being disingenuous at best.

On a side note, what about your boy CK putting up a whopping ZERO yards passing in the first half last night....

[Luvnit2]

(08-28-2015, 01:59 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Put it this way. If you look at our roster over the past 4 years and you name weak links, QB would have to be right up there. Most of our other position groups are above average or very good. QB is average at best and last year was below average so to say we won in spite of Dalton isn't that far off.

Our defense was putrid in 2014 and ranked in bottom 3rd of the league.

[Luvnit2]

(08-28-2015, 02:06 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: First off he had a pretty lousy game against the Colts, but it was better than his other games playoff games i suppose. 

Here is a better way to answer this question about Dalton holding the team back. Rank the other position groups especially on offense.

RBs- I'd honestly say top 5. Hill and Bernard are awesome
WRs- probably top 5 or 6 as well. 
O-Line- PFF continue to rank this unit very high and as we all know the line is full of high draft picks that have played well. I'd say over the last 5 years you could definitely make the case that we have had a top 10 offensive line if not top 5.
TE- Average is probably on point here...I think with Eifert healthy this could become above average as well.

So in general our offense is highly talented....you could make the case that besides QB we have one of the top 5 talented offenses in the NFL. 

So to use your words "people say this team is stacked and dalton is holding them back"....well based upon the roster analysis it seems pretty damn accurate to me. Wouldn't you agree? I already know you won't because you will make some random excuses to give dalton a pass.

Are you purposely ignoring the facts in the 2014 playoff game which is what you referenced in this post?

Indy game - No Aj Green, No M. Jones, no Eifert, No Gresham, no Wright, no Sanz and even our 3rd string TE Smith was hurt earlier in the year

Our OL did not pass protect well in the playoff game either

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-31-2015, 01:20 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Our defense was putrid in 2014 and ranked in bottom 3rd of the league.

.....figment of your imagination.....