Are Schools Too Protective Of Kids?

[BFritz21]

(02-17-2018, 01:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: If you don't know how many autistic students were in attendance then there is no way you can claim they are all treated the same.

Because I've been in other schools and I've also talked to school emloyees.

And I have a friend who's son is autistic and she's part of the problem because she has been way too overprotective.

(02-17-2018, 01:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: And how was he treating the student? Overprotective?

I didn't see him interact with her, but he probably would be overprotective because that's how they're trained and instructed.

[fredtoast]

Brad.

How do you know how teachers are trained?

How do you know how they are treated in schools compared to other children?

Do you have any training at all in childhood development?

How do you know how many 504 plans are followed. How do you know the one for this child was not being followed?

Do you have any idea what limits are needed for children with autism? Or are you saying that children with autism need NO special treatment at all?

Seems to me that you interacted for 10 minutes with an autistic child and now believe that you know more about autism than people who have been studying it as part of their professional career. Like I said before. you are like some guy who plays catch with a terminally ill child for ten minutes and then claim that the doctors are all stupid because you can tell there is nothing wrong with the child.

You have never raised a child with autism and you have no training or education regarding how to deal with children with autism. You have no clue what you are talking about.

[grampahol]

I grew up in a time when there were two types of kids period, The 'normal kid's' and the kids who rode the small bus. I really struggled as a kid with math and reading, but back then if you struggled with certain subjects and fell behind the rest of the class you were simply labeled as lazy with no excuses.. Today's world is quite different with a heavy emphasis on mental health or lack thereof. Kids still get lumped into these groups and for many kids it's nearly impossible to escape a label slapped on them early on.
When my son was in school he got slapped with the dreaded learning disability label and set up for years of scholastic failure so much that as far as I'm concerned the school taught him little to nothing to prepare him for the real world. By the time he dropped out of school in 9th grade he couldn't write much more than his own name, but he's persevereand and can now read and write well enough to earn a living, but the school completely failed him.
He dropped out for the same reason I did. The school was completely wasting his time.
Looking back at high school myself I dropped out because my last year of school I was stuck in one remedial math class with an old woman who had given up on the idea of actually teaching and the rest of my entire school day consisted of study hall, period, end of story. Had I stuck around to get all the required credits for graduation I'd still be in 10th grade at 58.. Instead I dropped out and attended night school and scored in the top .03 percent on the GED test in the state of Ohio because I found a wonderful teacher who knew how to teach and who cared enough about his students to take the time to get us caught up with the subjects.
As it currently stands we have more than enough people who think that every problem every kid ever has can be fixed or solved with some kind of psychotropic medication and even more adults buying into the same nonsense.
I have ZERO faith in the approach of handing out psychotropic medication for anyone who ever thinks that they are depressed about just about anything..
I used to buy into that kind of thinking, but after years of abusive people in positions of authority, especially in the field of psychology I wouldn't trust those hacks and charlitains any more than I'd trust a bank robber to look after my financial affairs and I DEFINITELY wouldn't trust an underpaid teacher to evaluate my kids mental health.

I think you did the right thing Brad when you gave a kid the chance to prove herself every bit as valuable as every other kid in the class.
As far as over protected, if anything they're underprotected from hacks and charlitains pretending to know didly squat about mental health.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2018, 02:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Brad.  

How do you know how teachers are trained?

How do you know how they are treated in schools compared to other children?

Do you have any training at all in childhood development?

How do you know how many 504 plans are followed. How do you know the one for this child was not being followed?

Do you have any idea what limits are needed for children with autism?  Or are you saying that children with autism need NO special treatment at all?

Seems to me that you interacted for 10 minutes with an autistic child and now believe that you know more about autism than people who have been studying it as part of their professional career.  Like I said before.  you are like some guy who plays catch with a terminally ill child for ten minutes and then claim that the doctors are all stupid because you can tell there is nothing wrong with the child.  

You have never raised a child with autism and you have no training or education regarding how to deal with children with autism.  You have no clue what you are talking about.

Fred,

    I know that they're all trained a certain way and it's to protect kids and to protect them, which is good but sometimes it prevents kids from reaching their full potential, as was obvious in this case.

    Because I have been in many schools and seen it, as I saw in this case.  I also have a good friend that I dated as recently as this year that has a son with autism.  She babies him too much, also, as I have pointed out to her, to the point where he gets upset and cries at anything.  Case-in-point: I was in the back of my crippled van and he was in the front.  You need to open the ramp door with a button, otherwise the entire thing gets screwed up, so when he got out of the front to open the door, I started freaking out and yelling not to (not in a mean way, just urgent), and he pulled it open and saw me yelling and started crying.  He was in 8th grade.  However, I also kept building his confidence and trying to get him to play football, which he did and now he has friends that he sits with at lunch.  Point is that she's exactly like these teachers I was mentioning (and she also worked in schools with children with special needs), and was too overprotective.

   Nope, but I do have common sense and I am able to see problems and evaluate situations.

    The 504 plan might be being followed, but my point is that they're all written to protect children and to just "let them get by," rather than enabling them to succeed.  They're all too protective, as grampahol points out below.  

   Do you know that every child with autisms is different and some can do loads more than others?  That's my point in that you, like teachers, are lumping them all together.  I have seen this video on YouTube of a dad talking with a son with autism and some of the things he says make absolutely no sense, whereas you could talk with my friend's son that I mentioned and you might not know that he has anything wrong with him, which I wouldn't have but she told me about it early on and I saw how she babies him, and I could see slight signs, and then there's this girl from the other day who was just labeled like that but didn't need it.  You're proving my point.

   Like I said, I've been to many schools and talked with many children who are labeled a certain way, many with autism.  The teacher said that this student couldn't perform the tasks that I did and I saw that she could, which she did better than perfectly, so, like I said, they are trained wrong if the training tells them that all students with autism can't do that,

   You're labeling them all, just as teachers do, so I'm right and I appreciate you pointing it out.

    

    

(02-19-2018, 02:42 PM)grampahol Wrote: I grew up in a time when there were two types of kids period, The 'normal kid's' and the kids who rode the small bus. I really struggled as a kid with math and reading, but back then if you struggled with certain subjects and fell behind the rest of the class you were simply labeled as lazy with no excuses.. Today's world is quite different with a heavy emphasis on mental health or lack thereof. Kids still get lumped into these groups and for many kids it's nearly impossible to escape a label slapped on them early on.
When my son was in school he got slapped with the dreaded learning disability label and set up for years of scholastic failure so much that as far as I'm concerned the school taught him little to nothing to prepare him for the real world. By the time he dropped out of school in 9th grade he couldn't write much more than his own name,  but he's persevereand and can now read and write well enough to earn a living,  but the school completely failed him.
He dropped out for the same reason I did. The school was completely wasting his time.
Looking back at high school myself I dropped out because my last year of school I was stuck in one remedial math class with an old woman who had given up on the idea of actually teaching and the rest of my entire school day consisted of study hall, period, end of story. Had I stuck around to get all the required credits for graduation I'd still be in 10th grade at 58..  Instead I dropped out and attended night school and scored in the top .03 percent on the GED test in the state of Ohio because I found a wonderful teacher who knew how to teach and who cared enough about his students to take the time to get us caught up with the subjects.
As it currently stands we have more than enough people who think that every problem every kid ever has can be fixed or solved with some kind of psychotropic medication and even more adults buying into the same nonsense.
I have ZERO faith in the approach of handing out psychotropic medication for anyone who ever thinks that they are depressed about just about anything..
I used to buy into that kind of thinking, but after years of abusive people in positions of authority, especially in the field of psychology I wouldn't trust those hacks and charlitains any more than I'd trust a bank robber to look after my financial affairs and I DEFINITELY wouldn't trust an underpaid teacher to evaluate my kids mental health.

I think you did the right thing Brad when you gave a kid the chance to prove herself every bit as valuable as every other kid in the class.
As far as over protected, if anything they're underprotected from hacks and charlitains pretending to know didly squat about mental health.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

These teachers come in and think they know everything because they've been trained, but they just label kids and put them all in one category which holds them back from reaching their full potential, but people like Fred think they have the answers to it all when, in actuality, you need to give kids the tools they need and let them succeed and flourish.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 04:42 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Fred,

    I know that they're all trained a certain way and it's to protect kids and to protect them, which is good but sometimes it prevents kids from reaching their full potential, as was obvious in this case.

   

You have no idea how teachers are trained to deal with autistic children.  HBow could you possibly know this?

(02-19-2018, 04:42 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because I have been in many schools and seen it, as I saw in this case. 

   

What exactly did you see in this case?  You saw how one teacher advised you about one student.  When you are in aschool you don't observe them in classrooms.  You can't tell which children are autistic and which ones are not.  You did not even know what a 504 plan was before this thread.

(02-19-2018, 04:42 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I started freaking out and yelling not to (not in a mean way, just urgent), and he pulled it open and saw me yelling and started crying.  He was in 8th grade.

   

And this could have been exactly what the teacher was trying to protect this girl from.  Maybe the teacher was familiar with your high failure rate with picking assistants and advisiing them on how to help you.

(02-19-2018, 04:42 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:     The 504 plan might be being followed, but my point is that they're all written to protect children and to just "let them get by," rather than enabling them to succeed.  They're all too protective,

Except they are not.  This is a complete lie.  Each plan is different based on the individual child.  And they try to challenge the students while taking into account their disabilities.  You are just making stuff up out of thin air.  You don't have any clue what you are talking about.

If every 504 plan was exactly the same then why would they work with each individual child to come up with a specific plan?  If they were going to lump them all together and treat them all the same then they would have no use for 504 plans.

(02-19-2018, 04:42 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:    Do you know that every child with autisms is different and some can do loads more than others?  That's my point in that you, like teachers, are lumping them all together.

   

Yes I know this.  And anyone who has ever been trained in childhood development knows this also.  That is why they have individual 504 plans.

The fact that you keep accusing me of lumping them all together proves that you have no clue what you are talking about.  I understand that they are all individuals with different levels of disability.  How can you accuse me of something when I repeatly explain how I am in favor of treating them all as individuals?

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2018, 05:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have no idea how teachers are trained to deal with autistic children.  HBow could you possibly know this?

I'm pretty sure I just told you that my friend has an autistic child and she also worked in Special Ed classes and things like that at his school.

(02-19-2018, 05:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What exactly did you see in this case?  You saw how one teacher advised you about one student.  When you are in aschool you don't observe them in classrooms.  You can't tell which children are autistic and which ones are not.  You did not even know what a 504 plan was before this thread.

How can you even pretend like people take you seriously when you just assume things and post flat-out lies?

First off, I interacted with the child, saw how one teacher told me that she wouldn't be able to accomplish the task, and then another teacher agreed with me about the babying.

I knew what a 504 plan was before this thread.

Like I said, how can you even pretend to be taken seriously when you just post lies and constant garbage to fit your agenda?

(02-19-2018, 05:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And this could have been exactly what the teacher was trying to protect this girl from.  Maybe the teacher was familiar with your high failure rate with picking assistants and advisiing them on how to help you.

How would she have known that?  It's also not a failure rate because it's just the one slide that gives kids problems (if they click while it's paused on the first one then they don't do it on the second), and a lot of times teachers pick the kids and they still have just as many time.  So how could I suck at picking them (as you said) if the teachers pick just as many kids that mess it up? 

(02-19-2018, 05:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have no idea how teachers are trained to deal with autistic children.  HBow could you possibly know this?



Except they are not.  This is a complete lie.  Each plan is different based on the individual child.  And they try to challenge the students while taking into account their disabilities.  You are just making stuff up out of thin air.  You don't have any clue what you are talking about.

If every 504 plan was exactly the same then why would they work with each individual child to come up with a specific plan?  If they were going to lump them all together and treat them all the same then they would have no use for 504 plans.

You just make things up out of thin air and expect everyone to buy into it, even when you're completely wrong.

How would you know in depth how much time is put into plans and things like that, especially since they all have to be different?

I'm not saying that they're all exactly the same and I know they take into account their disabilities, but my point is that they're too cautious when considering those disabilities.

Grampahol's post is very relevant to that, which you completely ignored because you can't just pretend like you know more than him about this, like you're doing with me.  You just post things and expect everyone to buy it because you're a talented writer.  It's usually just empty rhetoric, though.

(02-19-2018, 05:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes I know this.  And anyone who has ever been trained in childhood development knows this also.  That is why they have individual 504 plans.

The fact that you keep accusing me of lumping them all together proves that you have no clue what you are talking about.  I understand that they are all individuals with different levels of disability.  How can you accuse me of something when I repeatly explain how I am in favor of treating them all as individuals?

They are all lumped together in the fact that they're all treated too cautiously, which is what I meant.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-17-2018, 04:53 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because I've been in other schools and I've also talked to school emloyees.

And I have a friend who's son is autistic and she's part of the problem because she has been way too overprotective.

So you don't even know how many kids in the audience may have disabilities, but you know all the teachers treat them the same?

Quote:I didn't see him interact with her, but he probably would be overprotective because that's how they're trained and instructed.

He wasn't interacting with her thus he wasn't being over protective. But, you know if he did interact with her he would be over protective if he wasn't already too busy not being over protective.

I don't feel like quoting what you wrote about 504 plans being over protective or holding kids back from success, but my personal experience as a parent and 504 plans are the exact opposite.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 10:54 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm not saying that they're all exactly the same and I know they take into account their disabilities, but my point is that they're too cautious when considering those disabilities.

Okay then.  Give me some specifics.  What are autistic children barred from doing that they can actually do?

And I am not talking about one random child who did a task for you.  I am talking about ALL children with disabilities.  That is the claim you made, so back it up with some specifics.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2018, 10:54 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: How would you know in depth how much time is put into plans and things like that, especially since they all have to be different?

Because gifted children have 504 plans just like children with disabilities and both of my daughters are gifted students.  So I have actually attended 504 plan meetings for my daughters.

[BFritz21]

(02-21-2018, 04:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So you don't even know how many kids in the audience may have disabilities, but you know all the teachers treat them the same?

I don't know that they treat them all the same, but they're overprotective of a lot of them just because they're labeled with things like Autism.

(02-21-2018, 04:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I don't feel like quoting what you wrote about 504 plans being over protective or holding kids back from success, but my personal experience as a parent and 504 plans are the exact opposite.

I was just texting my friend with the autistic son and she said there are times where the plans are on point, and other times where they're too difficult or too hard, which goes back to the point about me saying that they're lumped in and overprotective.

(02-21-2018, 04:39 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: He wasn't interacting with her thus he wasn't being over protective. But, you know if he did interact with her he would be over protective if he wasn't already too busy not being over protective. 

He wasn't and I'm not saying he would have been, but he even said that teachers are that way to a lot of kids and seemed disgusted by it, either because they have no choice or because they're not trained properly.

(02-21-2018, 06:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then.  Give me some specifics.  What are autistic children barred from doing that they can actually do?

And I am not talking about one random child who did a task for you.  I am talking about ALL children with disabilities.  That is the claim you made, so back it up with some specifics.

I'm not saying they're all banned from doing certain things, so that's not a claim I made, which is just another load of bullshit you throw out.

I am saying that a child might be labeled with something like autism and automatically treated differently because of that label.

My friend's son is prove and she also worked with kids with special needs and said that it happens often.  She said that often times 

(02-21-2018, 06:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because gifted children have 504 plans just like children with disabilities and both of my daughters are gifted students.  So I have actually attended 504 plan meetings for my daughters.

So how much time do they put into 504 plans of children with special needs?

[fredtoast]

(02-17-2018, 04:53 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: And I have a friend who's son is autistic and she's part of the problem

(02-21-2018, 11:45 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: My friend's son is prove and she also worked with kids with special needs and said that it happens often.  She said that often times 

[fredtoast]

(02-21-2018, 11:45 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I'm not saying they're all banned from doing certain things, so that's not a claim I made, which is just another load of bullshit you throw out.

Okay then, what exactly did you mean by "overprotective"?

It seemed to me you were implying that they were being kept from trying certain things.

[BFritz21]

(02-22-2018, 01:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then, what exactly did you mean by "overprotective"?

It seemed to me you were implying that they were being kept from trying certain things.

I did claim that some were, which is exactly the example in my original post, but you said that I claim that "all kids" are, which now you're trying to change it again.

Just more and more of your empty rhetoric, like always.  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-21-2018, 11:45 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I don't know that they treat them all the same, but they're overprotective of a lot of them just because they're labeled with things like Autism.

I was just texting my friend with the autistic son and she said there are times where the plans are on point, and other times where they're too difficult or too hard, which goes back to the point about me saying that they're lumped in and overprotective.

He wasn't and I'm not saying he would have been, but he even said that teachers are that way to a lot of kids and seemed disgusted by it, either because they have no choice or because they're not trained properly.



I'm not saying they're all banned from doing certain things, so that's not a claim I made, which is just another load of bullshit you throw out.

I am saying that a child might be labeled with something like autism and automatically treated differently because of that label.

My friend's son is prove and she also worked with kids with special needs and said that it happens often.  She said that often times 

So how much time do they put into 504 plans of children with special needs?

This is from your first post, "Are some kids unable to reach their full potential because they're labeled with Autism or anything else so they're all treated one way instead of looking at the individual child?

And as your friend told you, the plans vary which means they aren't lumped in and treated the same.

And you literally wrote the teacher probably would have been overprotective; so, yes, you are saying he probably would have been overprotective despite now claiming you're not claiming that.

[BFritz21]

(02-23-2018, 12:51 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: This is from your first post, "Are some kids unable to reach their full potential because they're labeled with Autism or anything else so they're all treated one way instead of looking at the individual child?

And as your friend told you, the plans vary which means they aren't lumped in and treated the same.

And you literally wrote the teacher probably would have been overprotective; so, yes, you are saying he probably would have been overprotective despite now claiming you're not claiming that.

What I meant, and I believe that I've made it clear, is that they're labeled with something like Autism and then treated the same as in being overprotected and not given the chance to reach their full potential.  Teachers treat the label more than the individual child.

I didn't make a definite statement in either case, but, if he would have been, it would have been because he was afraid of the repercussions of treating the child in a unique manner.  Teachers are most likely told to follow the 504 reports to a T with little-to-no wiggle room.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-23-2018, 02:17 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: What I meant, and I believe that I've made it clear, is that they're labeled with something like Autism and then treated the same as in being overprotected and not given the chance to reach their full potential.  Teachers treat the label more than the individual child.

Yet, you yourself stated your friend told you the plans vary. Therefore, they aren't treated the same.

Quote:I didn't make a definite statement in either case, but, if he would have been, it would have been because he was afraid of the repercussions of treating the child in a unique manner.  Teachers are most likely told to follow the 504 reports to a T with little-to-no wiggle room.

Earlier you stated the plans weren't always followed. In the above paragraph you claimed the teachers treat the label not the individual. Now you're claiming the plans are followed to the T. How can they follow varying plans to the T and yet treat the label instead of the individual?

[BFritz21]

(02-23-2018, 02:28 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yet, you yourself stated your friend told you the plans vary. Therefore, they aren't treated the same.

Once again, I said that plans very, but they're made more to the label than the individual.

(02-23-2018, 02:28 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Earlier you stated the plans weren't always followed. In the above paragraph you claimed the teachers treat the label not the individual. Now you're claiming the plans are followed to the T. How can they follow varying plans to the T and yet treat the label instead of the individual?

If the plans are followed to the T, then they're flawed, as I've been saying.

The plans are written specifically for individuals, but the individuals are labeled a certain way, so their plans aren't specific enough to help that student succeed.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-23-2018, 02:47 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Once again, I said that plans very, but they're made more to the label than the individual.


If the plans are followed to the T, then they're flawed, as I've been saying.

The plans are written specifically for individuals, but the individuals are labeled a certain way, so their plans aren't specific enough to help that student succeed.

As a parent who has helped developed an individualized plan for my daughter in conjunction with her teachers and administrators . . . and witnessed the results, I can tell you your assumptions are false.

My daughter has had some wonderful teachers. You do all of them a disservice with your stereotypes that teachers teach to labels, not individuals.

[*Go Cards*]

Never expected this thread to be so lengthy in debate.

[fredtoast]

(02-23-2018, 02:47 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: The plans are written specifically for individuals, but the individuals are labeled a certain way, so their plans aren't specific enough to help that student succeed.

This just is not true.

Both of my daughters are labled as "gifted" but their plans are different.  I am sure they do the same with different children labeled as autistic.  if they had one set plan for each labeled then they would not have had us come in as parents and develop a plan for each child separately.  Instead they would have just said "Here is the plan for every child labeled as gifted"

You really have no idea what you are talking about.  They do not have just one plan for every child labeled as autistic.  All experts agree that there is a HUGE range of autism.  There is no way possible they could have just one plan they use for every autistic child.