Did Andy have the worst offensive supporting cast?

[fredtoast]

(02-23-2018, 01:15 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Maybe this season you can find the time to watch the games.

Nearly 25% of his TD total (6) came against the Browns. The worst team in the league the past however many seasons back. Feel free to check out his passer ratings against teams that weren't in the toilet this season.

http://www.nfl.com/player/andydalton/2495143/gamelogs

Other than 1 half against the Packers (he stunk in the 2nd half and couldn't generate any offense) and a good game against the Titans, Dalton beat up on the worst teams in the league and got shut down by the better ones. He had 10 games.... 10.... with under 225 yards passing. Impressive??? In 2017's NFL?!?! Are you kidding me!? Eli Manning had a way worse O-Line and way worse talent around him. Hell, he didn't even play in a game and EVEN COUNTING THE GAME HE SAT OUT only had 8. Andy Dalton was.... HORRIBLE.

1.  Second half and overtime against the Packers dalton had an 84.2 passer rating.  Not great but not "stunk"

2.  Andy had a 96.3 passer rating in the second game against the Steelers.

3.  On average every NFL QB plays half of his games against teams in the bottom half of the league.  And pretty much every QB struggles against tough defenses and flourishes against weak defenses.  If you took every QB in the league and said all of his games against weak teams don't count then EVERY QBs number are going to look a lot worse.  This type of analysis is ridiculous.

[J24]

(02-23-2018, 01:15 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Maybe this season you can find the time to watch the games.

Nearly 25% of his TD total (6) came against the Browns. The worst team in the league the past however many seasons back. Feel free to check out his passer ratings against teams that weren't in the toilet this season.

http://www.nfl.com/player/andydalton/2495143/gamelogs

Other than 1 half against the Packers (he stunk in the 2nd half and couldn't generate any offense) and a good game against the Titans, Dalton beat up on the worst teams in the league and got shut down by the better ones. He had 10 games.... 10.... with under 225 yards passing. Impressive??? In 2017's NFL?!?! Are you kidding me!? Eli Manning had a way worse O-Line and way worse talent around him. Hell, he didn't even play in a game and EVEN COUNTING THE GAME HE SAT OUT only had 8. Andy Dalton was.... HORRIBLE.

Way worse offensive line? Andy had the quickest release in the sport and yet he was still sacked nearly 40 times.  Also he had 6 TDs to zero interceptions against the Broncos and Ravens in the second Half of the season and both of those teams were top 10 in pass Defense.

[*bfine32*]

Where would we rate the QB that our supporting cast had?

[*bfine32*]

(02-24-2018, 12:39 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Way worse offensive line? Andy had the quickest release in the sport and yet he was still sacked nearly 40 times.  Also he had 6 TDs to zero interceptions against the Broncos and Ravens in the second Half of the season and both of those teams were top 10 in pass Defense.

The "quickest release" alibi could be the worst one ever perpetrated in the forum. Not counting the QB's propensity to get rid of the ball quickly instead of standing tall in the pocket; let's do an experiment:

Hold your breath for 2.01 seconds and then hold your breath for 2.99 seconds. Was there a difference?

[PDub80]

(02-24-2018, 12:39 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Way worse offensive line? Andy had the quickest release in the sport and yet he was still sacked nearly 40 times.  Also he had 6 TDs to zero interceptions against the Broncos and Ravens in the second Half of the season and both of those teams were top 10 in pass Defense.

(02-24-2018, 02:12 AM)bfine32 Wrote: The "quickest release" alibi could be the worst one ever perpetrated in the forum. Not counting the QB's propensity to get rid of the ball quickly instead of standing tall in the pocket; let's do an experiment:

Hold your breath for 2.01 seconds and then hold your breath for 2.99 seconds. Was there a difference?

I thought that not too long ago Andy Dalton's "quick release" was being touted as one of his strengths? Now it's due to bad line play and causing him to miss deep throws or throw the ball away on 4th down and give up? 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-24-2018, 02:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Where would we rate the QB that our supporting cast had?

Where would we rate the HC that our whole team is saddled with?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-25-2018, 12:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I thought that not too long ago Andy Dalton's "quick release" was being touted as one of his strengths? Now it's due to bad line play and causing him to miss deep throws or throw the ball away on 4th down and give up? 

Nah....it's really pretty simple.  The offense is predicated on getting the ball out quickly because the line cannot hold blocks.  Between PAs anemic scheme, and then shitty players to boot later on, plays often don't have time to develop against good defenses.  Dalton's release has served him well, but the OCs are to get most of the credit.  They are the guys that could mask the deficient line (until it came to the run game) with misdirection and quick hits.  Then came Zampese.  People forget that the year before Gruden came here, this team was CONSTANTLY being forced to run an unbalanced set just have a semblance of a run game, with a fullback.  That wasn't Cedric Benson's fault.  

The offensive line came together rather well in 2015....Boling was maturing into a very nice guard, Zeitler was coming into his own, Big Dre had a nice year, and Whitworth was hitting his peak.  The only weak link was Blodine, but the unit had gelled well by this point.  Hue Jackson was able to use the strengths to his advantage, and scheme around Blodine as the lone weak link on the ENTIRE offense.  We roll into 2016 with no Sanu or Marvin Jones, the Trainwreck Twins at RT, and a guy that couldn't call plays on Tecmo Bowl at OC.

[fredtoast]

(02-25-2018, 12:17 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I thought that not too long ago Andy Dalton's "quick release" was being touted as one of his strengths? Now it's due to bad line play and causing him to miss deep throws or throw the ball away on 4th down and give up? 

Don't even know what you are trying to say.

Can't you see how it is possible for a qb to have quick release (good thing) and still be handicapped by a poor o-line?

And why do you always make up strawmen instead of addressing what people actually say? 

[*bfine32*]

(02-26-2018, 10:59 AM)Wyche Wrote: Where would we rate the HC that our whole team is saddled with?

About 20th in the NFL

[bengals67]

(02-21-2018, 09:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not good, but I don't think it was the worst.

except for the last two games, easily bottom 3 and maybe lower

Og and Bodine were completely awful. Certainly close to the worst players if not the worst at their positions in Bengal history.

I have no idea how or why they would re-sign Bodine except it is the cheap thing to do.

[PDub80]

(02-23-2018, 06:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Second half and overtime against the Packers dalton had an 84.2 passer rating.  Not great but not "stunk"

2.  Andy had a 96.3 passer rating in the second game against the Steelers.

3.  On average every NFL QB plays half of his games against teams in the bottom half of the league.  And pretty much every QB struggles against tough defenses and flourishes against weak defenses.  If you took every QB in the league and said all of his games against weak teams don't count then EVERY QBs number are going to look a lot worse.  This type of analysis is ridiculous.

To address your points....

1: Andy Dalton was AWFUL the 2nd half of the Packers game. Clearly you didn't watch it. If you did, you wouldn't be vomiting up his passer rating. Since you fail to actually research the BS you spew forth into the internet, I'll do it for you. I research this stuff before I type it out, which is why I'm a lot smarter than you. You simply have opinions, while I actually take the time to form mine....

- Only led the team to only 3 points in the 2nd half.

- Terrible on 3rd down. The team went 4/12 on 3rd down. I'll put some of that on the O line as well. That wasn't ALL bad QB play. 

- I went ahead and looked through the 2nd half play by play of the Packers game. Andy Dalton went 7 of 12 and missed on key plays the Bengals needed. Breaking THAT down for you...
 
- 1 in particular was due to Andy (once again) being fixated on AJ Green and not progressing to his other reads. He also missed other wide open WRs. Video found down the page in this link under "The Bad". I know you want watch it, Fred, but others reading and interested in, you know... learning something about that game/loss might be interested: https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/9/27/16370986/nfl-week-3-bengals-packers-the-good-bad-and-the-ugly

- AD also had an intentional grounding call in the 2nd half.

- They also missed a 48 yard field goal, as well. However, THAT was after being given the ball at the GB 47 yard line and AD couldn't move the chains. AD took a -8 yard sack on 3rd down on that drive to lead to the longer attempt.

- In OT Andy Dalton did complete 2 passes, for a whopping 7 yards. The last one being for 1 yard on a 3rd and 6 play.

The quarter backing in the 2nd half of that game SUCKED. And, before anyone gets too wild and wacky hyping up the 1st half performance, Andy only led the team to 17 of those points. WJ3 had a pick 6. The entire team was doing great, AD included. And then, the 2nd half happened and the QB checked down into nothing and missed open throws. Andy had 212 passing yards for the game. That's not anything to be excited about. Especially when he had over time to work in as well.

Even though it may sound like it, I'm not completely blaming Andy Dalton for the loss. The defense was bad the 2nd half - although they didn't have help with field position, the line was inconsistent, the missed FG, and the Packers played very well. AD just didn't help at all in the 2nd half and when the other team's QB becomes a factor and the yours wilts.... Well, that's the difference between an avg to below avg QB and a great one.

2: Funny you bring up only the 2nd Steelers game, right? I'll break that down for you as well, but first, lets look at Dalton's train wreck 1st Steelers game...

- Passer rating of 63.2
- 140 yards
- 4.7 yards a throw (pitiful)
- 2 TDs, 2 INTs

Andy played well, not great, but well the 2nd Steelers game. I think for Andy Dalton you could say he played great. He didn't lose the game, would be my summarizing of how he played. Not something we can say for much of Andy's 2017. His poor play cost the Bengals the season more than any other single player.


3: It's not a ridiculous analysis to bring up which opponents a QB torched and which ones he didn't when discussing statistics. Andy Dalton beat up the Browns, who are by far the worst team in the NFL TWICE, badly. To then look at his season as a whole is fine, but to ignore that he gets the Browns twice is asinine. To think that that doesn't inflate his overall performance MORE than QBs who don't play the Browns twice EVERY SEASON, is asinine. I'm not saying to discredit his season performances, but if we're talking about if a QB is good or not, I'm more interested in how he performs against the better teams because in the playoffs, that is who he will be seeing. How he does against garbage isn't as relevant to me. Other guys like Ben, Tom Brady, Breese, etc. get a pass because they have performed well enough against good teams for long enough into their careers.

Andy Dalton has played 7 seasons and has a poor record and has mostly poor performances against top competition, playoffs, etc. So, it's relevant to see who he plays well against when looking at career numbers. If you want to show me successful post season QBs who struggle the same as Andy against top teams and for this long, please do. But to say it doesn't matter? That's a loser mentality.

[fredtoast]

(02-28-2018, 12:16 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Andy Dalton has played 7 seasons and has a poor record and has mostly poor performances against topo competition, playoffs, etc. So, it's relevant to see who he plays well against when looking at career numbers.

I am unable to break down the numbers by individual QB, but since Dalton has started pretty much every game for the Bengals over the last 7 years I think this is a fairly accurate analysis.

Since 2011 Bengal QBs rank 10th in passer rating (85.7) in games where the opposing teams made the playoffs.  They also rank 12th in both wins (14) and winning percentage (.337) against teams that made the playoffs.

These numbers are not great.  They need to improve, but they are better than most other teams in the league.  They are far from "poor".


FYI McCarron started two games against playoff teams and lost both.  His combined passer rating for those two games was 89.1.

[PDub80]

(02-28-2018, 12:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am unable to break down the numbers by individual QB, but since Dalton has started pretty much every game for the Bengals over the last 7 years I think this is a fairly accurate analysis.

Since 2011 Bengal QBs rank 10th in passer rating (85.7) in games where the opposing teams made the playoffs.  They also rank 12th in both wins (14) and winning percentage (.337) against teams that made the playoffs.

These numbers are not great.  They need to improve, but they are better than most other teams in the league.  They are far from "poor".


FYI McCarron started two games against playoff teams and lost both.  His combined passer rating for those two games was 89.1.

THIS ^ is fair and good information to further the discussion. I will cross check this as I would like to see some of these breakdown a little further.

[PDub80]

(02-26-2018, 11:12 AM)Wyche Wrote: Nah....it's really pretty simple.  The offense is predicated on getting the ball out quickly because the line cannot hold blocks.  Between PAs anemic scheme, and then shitty players to boot later on, plays often don't have time to develop against good defenses.  Dalton's release has served him well, but the OCs are to get most of the credit.  They are the guys that could mask the deficient line (until it came to the run game) with misdirection and quick hits.  Then came Zampese.  People forget that the year before Gruden came here, this team was CONSTANTLY being forced to run an unbalanced set just have a semblance of a run game, with a fullback.  That wasn't Cedric Benson's fault.  

The offensive line came together rather well in 2015....Boling was maturing into a very nice guard, Zeitler was coming into his own, Big Dre had a nice year, and Whitworth was hitting his peak.  The only weak link was Blodine, but the unit had gelled well by this point.  Hue Jackson was able to use the strengths to his advantage, and scheme around Blodine as the lone weak link on the ENTIRE offense.  We roll into 2016 with no Sanu or Marvin Jones, the Trainwreck Twins at RT, and a guy that couldn't call plays on Tecmo Bowl at OC.

(02-26-2018, 12:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't even know what you are trying to say.

Can't you see how it is possible for a qb to have quick release (good thing) and still be handicapped by a poor o-line?

And why do you always make up strawmen instead of addressing what people actually say? 

Having a quick release IS a good thing. No question.

To say that it's because the line is bad isn't reasonable. The line was bad in 2017. It hasn't been THAT bad every season Andy's been in the league. I think it's fair to start looking at Andy's body of work as a whole past one good or bad season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-28-2018, 12:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Having a quick release IS a good thing. No question.

To say that it's because the line is bad isn't reasonable. The line was bad in 2017. It hasn't been THAT bad every season Andy's been in the league. I think it's fair to start looking at Andy's body of work as a whole past one good or bad season.

I hear ya......I'm just not sold on Marvin Lewis.  Palmer went on to have quite a resurgence under a good HC in Bruce Arians at like 35 or 36 years old with two bum knees and nerve damage in his throwing shoulder.  Looking at Marv's record, as a whole, in 2nd halves has not been very good.  I believe Andy is a little better than you do, but yeah....not a world beater to say the least, lol.

[J24]

(02-28-2018, 12:49 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Having a quick release IS a good thing. No question.

To say that it's because the line is bad isn't reasonable. The line was bad in 2017. It hasn't been THAT bad every season Andy's been in the league. I think it's fair to start looking at Andy's body of work as a whole past one good or bad season.

Two 4,000 yard season (Should be three if not for injury in 2015)
1 30 TD(again should be two if not for injury in 2015)
4 seasons with at least 25 TDs
5 straight playoff appearances (it might go against your point so you will try and dismiss it)
2 division titles
4 seasons of at least 10 wins.



Two things that Andy has had a problem with one he was inconsistent early in his career and two lack of post season success. Besides that the guy has proven to be a franchise caliber QB. 

[PDub80]

(02-28-2018, 03:38 PM)Wyche Wrote: I hear ya......I'm just not sold on Marvin Lewis.  Palmer went on to have quite a resurgence under a good HC in Bruce Arians at like 35 or 36 years old with two bum knees and nerve damage in his throwing shoulder.  Looking at Marv's record, as a whole, in 2nd halves has not been very good.  I believe Andy is a little better than you do, but yeah....not a world beater to say the least, lol.

I am 100% behind the idea that Marvin gets the largest portion of blame. Absolutely NO QUESTION. But, I also believe that it's the players whose job is to play. Because that's their job, they get blame as well. On any football team, the QB, to me, deserves a lot of blame for a team's struggle. There are circumstances, of course, that need to be reviewed on a game by game, season by season basis, but the QB is the most unique position in terms of influence and control over the game. So, when the team fails, I look at the QB play 1st.

For the overall team performances regular season and playoffs, I would say Marvin gets 50% of the blame from me overall. Then, I would put Andy Dalton at 30% with the rest of the team getting 20%. But, keep in mind... Andy Dalton is ONE player where the rest of the team is spread out over many players. So, I look at him and think he needs to get 10% to 15% of that blame out of his game. That would have the Bengals playing much better.

The QB play dictates so much. Not just offense, but field position and, thus, defense as well. Like, if he only had 2 turnovers against the Ravens in the first game of the season and was on for a drive or two, that game is won by the Bengals. If he finds a way to scramble on a broken play here or there they beat the Packers and they beat the Steelers that 2nd game and are in the playoffs. Same thing with the close games in 2016. If Dalton finds a rhythm for ONE drive in some 4th quarters they win 4 more games at least! The Bengals are super talented all over. They really are. But that one position kills them more than any other if he has a horrible day.

People are talking about Andy's supporting cast and I'm like, put Ben on the Bengals and Andy on the Steelers and, other than date rape statistics, the Bengals are way better. They crush the Steelers. CRUSH THEM. The Bengals need great QB play. Not average. Average gets you out of the 1st round or missing the playoffs. Andy's been average with the exception of 1 season. The head coach is below average, but they've been in position to win if the QB had made a play. He has to make a play first. The Bengals stink on broken plays where other teams do well. Even if the coaches haven't instituted it, 7 seasons in and he hasn't said or just gathered the skill guys up and said "Here's the plan on a broken play."? I mean... get with it, AD. Own the position.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(03-02-2018, 02:28 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I am 100% behind the idea that Marvin gets the largest portion of blame. Absolutely NO QUESTION. But, I also believe that it's the players whose job is to play. Because that's their job, they get blame as well. On any football team, the QB, to me, deserves a lot of blame for a team's struggle. There are circumstances, of course, that need to be reviewed on a game by game, season by season basis, but the QB is the most unique position in terms of influence and control over the game. So, when the team fails, I look at the QB play 1st.

For the overall team performances regular season and playoffs, I would say Marvin gets 50% of the blame from me overall. Then, I would put Andy Dalton at 30% with the rest of the team getting 20%. But, keep in mind... Andy Dalton is ONE player where the rest of the team is spread out over many players. So, I look at him and think he needs to get 10% to 15% of that blame out of his game. That would have the Bengals playing much better.

The QB play dictates so much. Not just offense, but field position and, thus, defense as well. Like, if he only had 2 turnovers against the Ravens in the first game of the season and was on for a drive or two, that game is won by the Bengals. If he finds a way to scramble on a broken play here or there they beat the Packers and they beat the Steelers that 2nd game and are in the playoffs. Same thing with the close games in 2016. If Dalton finds a rhythm for ONE drive in some 4th quarters they win 4 more games at least! The Bengals are super talented all over. They really are. But that one position kills them more than any other if he has a horrible day.

People are talking about Andy's supporting cast and I'm like, put Ben on the Bengals and Andy on the Steelers and, other than date rape statistics, the Bengals are way better. They crush the Steelers. CRUSH THEM. The Bengals need great QB play. Not average. Average gets you out of the 1st round or missing the playoffs. Andy's been average with the exception of 1 season. The head coach is below average, but they've been in position to win if the QB had made a play. He has to make a play first. The BEngals stink on broken plays where other teams do well. Even if the coaches haven't instituted it, 7 seasons in and he hasn't said or just gathered the skill guys up and said "Here's the plan on a broken play."? I mean... get with it, AD. Own the position.

I can get on board with a whole lot of this.  As to the broken plays.....a lot of that is on 14, but what is really maddening is I rarely see our WRs breaking back the LOS on a busted play.  WTF is up with that?  Have you noticed that, or is it just me?

[PDub80]

(03-01-2018, 07:26 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Two 4,000 yard season (Should be three if not for injury in 2015)
1 30 TD(again should be two if not for injury in 2015)
4 seasons with at least 25 TDs
5 straight playoff appearances (it might go against your point so you will try and dismiss it)
2 division titles
4 seasons of at least 10 wins.



Two things that Andy has had a problem with one he was inconsistent early in his career and two lack of post season success. Besides that the guy has proven to be a franchise caliber QB. 

So, listen, I know I come across as a super A-Hole in my writing. I know I do. I often times reread what I write and go back and edit it because I realize it comes off as shitty. But, I'm not meaning it that way. I write how I speak and if you heard the inflection in my voice you would get that my tone isn't actually dickish or being seriously nasty to people. I look at the forum as if we're sitting at a huge table at a sports bar and just all talking Bengals. So, if I have come across to you as being shitty, in person, it wouldn't come off that way. Sometimes I snark at people when they're being obtuse, purposefully misleading, or arguing just to argue, but ultimately we're all Bengals fans and I love everyone.... even the members I hate . 

So, I don't want to come across as crappy when I address your statistics. I actually have no problem counting Andy's 2015 in the sense of projecting it over the games he couldn't play (I'm not in love with his 2015 like everyone else, but it was a promising season - followed by two not so promising). I don't count the Colts playoff loss on him, either. I might have my own opinion on interpreting his play, but I also don't want to be unfair to the guy. My mind is open to changing. Anyway, to address your stats, in order...

1: 4,000 yards hasn't been a benchmark stat for a long time. In the modern NFL (I count this as post Irsay PA/Holding rules) 4000 yard passers are super common there are 8-12 or more 4000 yard passers every season. In the 2015 season you mentioned there were 12 guys with over 4,000 yards and 3 more in the 3,900s: http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/passing/sort/passingYards/year/2015

So, I don't see Andy getting to 4000 yards to be any kind of major accomplishment. The fact that, counting 2015, he's only done it 3 times out of 7 seasons is not soul stirring to me. He's ranked 7th and 11th in passing yards as career high finishes. It's basically slightly above average, but below average for that tier of QB (4000 yard guys). He could have hit 5,000 in 2015, but we'll never know.

2: He was 3rd in TD's way back in 2013 and would have definitely been up there in 2015. 30 TDs is really good. But, 2 out of 7 seasons shouldn't wow anyone. He's been in the league 7 seasons. Also, following up his 2015 with only 18 TDs in 2016 is upsetting to see as a fan. Andy's had one of the best WRs in the NFL in AJ Green his entire career. He SHOULD be throwing a ton of TDs.

3: 4 seasons with 25 TDs is middle of the road and bottom end of the better QBs. Andy Dalton doesn't suck over all, but he isn't consistently good or better than good. He's avg. to below avg. some games on a roster of above average talent (subject of the thread)... more on that later.

4: I would never dismiss Andy leading the team to the playoffs. He's played horribly in 3 of his 4 playoff games. I'll throw out the Colts game and he didn't play in 2015's. The missed throw to Green probably cost them the Texans game, and he totally crapped himself that Chargers playoff game. His 4th year in the league, there's no excuse for that. To his credit, he's never... ever... ever made any.

5: 2 division titles in 7 tries with superior to = talent of his opponent is not something anyone should be beating their chest over. Disappointing to me, honestly.

6: That's a good stat and it's tough to bang on him there. 10 wins is hard to do. But, we all know it has to be followed up on with post season success. If he's good enough in the regular season, he should be able to perform in the post season. He has the ability to be better THAT'S what frustrates me. If he was John Kitna I wouldn't care. I'd be like.. Oh, yeah, he's the QB. No way, with Andy. Andy needs to figure himself out.

I've hit him on post season success enough and, as I discussed with Wyche, the coach has been an issue as well, IMO. Andy has been wildly inconsistent his entire career. He goes from on point to WTF on a game by game basis. THAT is what's killing the Bengals. How do they game plan around that a guy who throws 17 TDs in 2014, then on target to throw for 35 TDs in 2015, and then 18 TDs the next in 2016? How do you build around that?

[PDub80]

(03-02-2018, 02:36 PM)Wyche Wrote: I can get on board with a whole lot of this.  As to the broken plays.....a lot of that is on 14, but what is really maddening is I rarely see our WRs breaking back the LOS on a busted play.  WTF is up with that?  Have you noticed that, or is it just me?

Oh, man, YES!!!! That's what I'm saying. Broken plays happen, right? I mean, no matter how good a line is, they happen. Like, if the coaches aren't putting in a plan for busted plays (especially when they knew the line was struggling), why isn't Andy leading that conversation/initiative???? How hard is it for him to go to the skill guys and be like, "This is what we're doing on scrambles."? Like, is that a season 8 thing? Holy shit!