2/5 of our O-line still concerns me & could prevent us having a Top 10 or better line

[sonofstat]

(04-30-2018, 04:59 PM)depthchart Wrote: Not on any Ledge yet, just not convinced that all is fine at RG and RT.

I wanted and expected Pollack to get to draft say a 3rd or even 4th round Guard or Tackle prospect to infuse this roster with more talent. It could turn out to be a mistake that they didn't or all is fine.

One can merely look at a team with a Top O-line, like say Dallas, to get an idea of how one is built & stays built.

While being considered to have one of the Top O-lines right now, Dallas still made an investment of this year's 2nd round pick by taking Connor Williams 50th overall.

Dallas invested 1st round picks in Travis Frederick, Zach Martin and Tyron Smith & turned out to be the team that took the risk of signing La'el Collins (a 1st round talent) who went undrafted due to legal issues.

Dallas doesn't wait and hope for Great offensive line performance, they pursue & invest in it. They make having a Great O-line a priority.

While I am happy that the Bengals finally did some very unusual things like trading down for LT Cordy Glenn and finally taking a top Center in Billy Price, I am not so happy that they took their foot off of the gas pedal during the mid rounds of the draft. Say rounds 3 through 4.

This may all work out and Pollack may turn Alexander's guys into solid starters. Hope he does. He has to or 2018 could fizzle and discussions can begin again before the 2019 Draft on the need to fix RG and RT. We can again wonder if the Bengals will invest early to mid round resources to fix it and maybe again be told to believe in what we already have on the roster one more time for 2019.

A Great O-line has to be consistently pursued and consistently maintained with Free Agent signings or trades or draft capital. The Bengals use Free Agency sparingly, making Drafts a Key way to infuse talent.

Is taking a DE, LB and RB in rounds 3 and 4 really better than getting 2 of those 3 and an Offensive line prospect to develop ?

Until all 5 positions on the O-line are set in stone solid, I think not. Especially when a starting offensive lineman will play all 3 downs and the DE, LB and 3rd RB may end up being rotational players that don't play all 3 downs.

The mid round offensive lineman we take may not end up a starter or he may end up being a starter. Similarly, the DE, LB or RB may or may not become consistently effective. Risk either direction we take.

Given the recent O-line problems that have hamstrung the Bengals in recent years, I would lean in the direction of consistently keeping our foot on the gas pedal until the O-line is fixed. I had hoped the Front Office felt the same but they stopped short after good moves with Cordy and Billy.

The right side may have to implode before they infuse serious competition there or they just get serviceable production from Westerman and Fisher and they become satisfied with serviceable.

To me this is not the way to get to an Elite status.

The Bengals took a big step off the BOTTOM O-line status level by obtaining Cordy and Billy but that may just get them say inside the top 20 offensive lines or maybe middle of the pack.

Say all is fine and they get to middle of the pack when it come to NFL O-lines.

Will they keep pushing for more, to be Elite on the O-line or do they stop short going forward ?

My guess is they would be happy with and settle for middle of the pack. Fans may too. It would be an improvement but is it the right mindset for a Front Office to have.

I say consistently pursue Greatness for the O-line. It is a Process and a mindset that requires investment & risk. Not convinced this Front Office will. I see them settling with a middle of the pack O-line and being happy with it longer term. Essentially limiting how successful Pollack could be even if he is only a player or two away from Elite or Top 5 status say in 2019.

Depthchart...I would have liked a RT high in the draft too - but if they were simply not rated high enough choosing them just for the sake of it is not the way forward.

I would challenge that the FO have 'settled' and are happy long term...the moves this season on the OL have been hugely significant.

they backed lazor up with getting rid of PA, they then let Pollack drive the glenn trade and take the #1 pick - that's progress.

this whole off season has shown to me what a crying shame & missed opportunity it has been that PA held sway for so long .

I backed him more than most but its interesting now Pollack has come in how much every player interview and bengals.com piece seems to reference his attitude already...just wonder what Pollack would have done with the top 2 ot draft choices PA had...oh well!!!

[depthchart]

(04-30-2018, 05:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe you can call the Jacksonville Jaguars and ask if they would trade '14 third round pick OG Brandon Thomas for Johnson or Hopkins.

You might find their answer quite amazing.  Thomas never played a single NFL game, and despite being healthy enough to make practice squads he has not made an active NFL roster since 2014.

Once players are in the NFL no one cares where they were drafted, and third round picks are not guaranteed to be better than some of the players we already have on our roster.

3 time Pro Bowler Trai Turner was from the 2014 third round along with Brandon Thomas.

You have been the one limiting a player's potential by what round they are picked. I want high, mid and late picks used until this O-line is fixed. That would have been using just 3 picks this draft on o-line. We did high and late only.

You said that TJ Johnson and Trey Hopkins would "provide as much competition for the starting spots as any of the third round picks in 2018".

You made an all inclusive statement that none of the 2018 third rounders of Brandon Parker, Geron Christian, Martinas Rankin, Orlando Brown Jr, Joseph Noteboom, Chukwuma Okorafor, Alex Cappa or Mason Cole could provide more competition that TJ or Trey.

Why don't you work the phones and offer the Steelers TJ Johnson for Chukwuma Okorafor and then call the Ravens offering Trey Hopkins for Orlando Brown Jr ?

Be sure to bring up Brandon Thomas from the 2014 draft 3rd round and use your Gem of selective logic to seal the deal with the Steelers and Ravens for Okorafor and Brown Jr. Explain to them that neither Orkorafor or Brown Jr could out compete TJ and Trey. None of the 2018 third rounders could according to you.

Post a thread once they turn you down.

You could ultimately end up being right that TJ and Trey are as good or better than any 3rd round O-lineman taken in 2018. I would have simply used 1 pick on the chance and possible likelihood that one of those 3rd rounders can outperform TJ, Trey and possibly Westerman.

Infuse competition and assume the risk to improve a still unsettled position.

[fredtoast]

(04-30-2018, 06:04 PM)depthchart Wrote: Post a thread once they turn you down.

Guess what, they just accepted.  Make believe arguments are meaningless. 

You have no idea how other teams value TJ or Trey.  You can't judge by draft pick trades because rookies are always cheaper and fresher. There are lots of starting O-Linemen who would not get a third round pick in trade, but that does not mean the starter is not better than the third round picks.  It just means draft picks have high value because rookies are cheap and fresh.

[depthchart]

(04-30-2018, 05:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Stop acting like we gave away our picks just because we did not use them on the players you wanted.  We never took our foot off the gas.  we used just as much gas as we always had.  we just used it on other positions.

EVERY POSITION NEEDS TALENT.  Every argument you made about the O-line could be made for the D-line and LB corps.

And most of all stop with this talk about how superior you are for not "settling for mediocre".  Guess what, Depthchart, it is actually possible to want to win just as much as you yet disagree with what the best course of action is.  Just because some one disagrees with you does not mean they are "settling  for mediocrity".  It just means they believe in a different way to get there.

I said earlier that it could turn out that Westerman plays well and Fisher plays well and all is fine. Also said I liked the players chosen in Hubbard, Jefferson and Walton.

I allow for that path to end up possibly working but simply raise concern that it may not.

The foot off the gas reference applies strictly to the O-line with the Glenn and Price moves occurring before the foot was taken off infusing more O-line talent.

This Front Office's recent past coupled with no mid round picks used in 2018 on offensive lineman leads me to believe that they will settle for Westerman and Fisher being serviceable.

They may end up being very good or just improve enough to being middle of the pack serviceable starters that a team can get by with using.

Questioning whether this Front Office would settle for serviceable versus investing in improving those positions beyond serviceable is a reasonable question given their recent O-line history. 

Superbowl caliber defensive lines can expose merely serviceable offensive lineman, hence my concern.

Hopefully the Bengals plan works out, Westerman and Fisher become very good starters and all is fine. I allow for that possibility. You seem to be the one dismissing the possibility that all is not fine.

[depthchart]

(04-30-2018, 06:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Guess what, they just accepted.  Make believe arguments are meaningless. 

You have no idea how other teams value TJ or Trey.  You can't judge by draft pick trades because rookies are always cheaper and fresher. There are lots of starting O-Linemen who would not get a third round pick in trade, but that does not mean the starter is not better than the third round picks.  It just means draft picks have high value because rookies are cheap and fresh.

Glad they accepted.

Now call around and see what you can get for Bobby Hart.

[fredtoast]

(04-30-2018, 07:35 PM)depthchart Wrote: Superbowl caliber defensive lines can expose merely serviceable offensive lineman, hence my concern.had 

This same exact argument can be made about every unit on offense and defense.

Any team that places all of its resources in one unit will struggle someplace else.  Yet you act like the O-line is the ONLY unit that counts.

And the Cowboys who you keep fawning over in this thread have only madec the playoffs twice in the lat 8 years.

[depthchart]

(05-01-2018, 07:10 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This same exact argument can be made about every unit on offense and defense.

Any team that places all of its resources in one unit will struggle someplace else.  Yet you act like the O-line is the ONLY unit that counts.

And the Cowboys who you keep fawning over in this thread have only madec the playoffs twice in the lat 8 years.

I simply wanted just 1 of the 3 picks we had in rounds three and four to be used on the O-line to begin a pipeline of young talent to compete on the right side of the line until it becomes more settled.

[XenoMorph]

Well its hard to knock westerman at all considering he and redmon looked pretty good the 2 games they got to play.

One of the 4 OTs not named glenn will claim the RT spot and if not some veteran can be brought in

What I don't get is bitching you wanted a 3-4th round pick when hey Westerman is one of those guys..

and we have a 1st and 2nd rounder fighting for playing time @ RT

[depthchart]

(05-01-2018, 11:56 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Well its hard to knock westerman at all considering he and redmon looked pretty good the 2 games they got to play.

One of the 4 OTs not named glenn will claim the RT spot and if not some veteran can be brought in

What I don't get is bitching you wanted a 3-4th round pick when hey Westerman is one of those guys..

and we have a 1st and 2nd rounder fighting for playing time @ RT

The bitching comes in response to bitching from others that don't see a need to add more young competitive talent to the right side of the line until it becomes sure and settled.

They state their case and I state mine. Starts off fairly civil but both sides escalate the bitching.

A Trade Off is made with any direction taken regarding what positions are chosen.

The Bengals have chosen to feel confident in what they have and I hope it works out.

As you say, there will be Post Draft options and the Bengals likely have Eric Winston on speed dial which is a decent emergency option.

[Whatever]

(05-01-2018, 12:08 PM)depthchart Wrote: The bitching comes in response to bitching from others that don't see a need to add more young competitive talent to the right side of the line until it becomes sure and settled.

They state their case and I state mine. Starts off fairly civil but both sides escalate the bitching.

A Trade Off is going made with any direction taken regarding what positions are chosen.

The Bengals have chosen to feel confident in what they have and I hope it works out.

As you say, there will be Post Draft options and the Bengals likely have Eric Winston on speed dial which is a decent emergency option.

I get both sides of the issue.  However, the reality is that the Bengals invested high draft picks in Og and Fisher, and neither has developed the way they hypothetically should have.  The Bengals were so unhappy with their progress that they canned PA and hired Pollack.  That seems to indicate that they felt the issue was with the coaching and not the players.

Reality is, the entire OL is a huge question mark.  There is no guarantee that Bolling plays as well in Pollack's system as he did in PA's.  There's no guarantee Price won't be a complete bust.  There's no guarantee Glenn will play to his previous form in new surroundings and with a new system.