The QB position

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2018, 01:03 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Actually there was 32 last year; Andy finished 18th. But I didn't want to focus solely on last year.

Actually there are at least 32 every year.  Why can't you look at more than 24 QBs for any period longer than a year? 

Seems pretty simple to me.  There are 45 active QBs with at least 750 career attempts.  These are the guys who have been starters over the last few years.  Dalton ranks 13th out of those 45 QBs in career passer rating.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-08-2018, 09:36 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually there are at least 32 every year.  Why can't you look at more than 24 QBs for any period longer than a year? 

Seems pretty simple to me.  There are 45 active QBs with at least 750 career attempts.  These are the guys who have been starters over the last few years.  Dalton ranks 13th out of those 45 QBs in career passer rating.

He doesn't need to do that, fred. See, what you and bfine are both missing is that in his list of 24, these aren't the only 24 active QBs in the league. They're the 24 active QBs that have thrown 1500 minimum passes. Basically, these are the 24 active QBs with the most staying power. These are the guys that continue to have jobs year after year. These are, essentially, the top 24 QBs active in the NFL as of the creation of this particular list. To be on this list means that you are already, at worse, an average QB. The higher on the list you are, the better a QB you are.

So I would say that the 24th ranked QB on that list is average. The stats bear that out. Ergo, to be 10th on a list of the top 24 active QBs in the league would make one a REALLY good QB. 

I commend bfine for helping to demonstrate that Dalton is one of the top QBs in the league. 

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2018, 12:33 PM)PhilHos Wrote: So I would say that the 24th ranked QB on that list is average. The stats bear that out. Ergo, to be 10th on a list of the top 24 active QBs in the league would make one a REALLY good QB. 

I commend bfine for helping to demonstrate that Dalton is one of the top QBs in the league. 

I see what you are saying.

It would be crazy to call a guy who finished 5th in the 100 yard dash in the Olympics "average" just because only 10 guys made the finals.

So Bfine is really saying that Dalton is in the top 40% of the best QBs.

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2018, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I see what you are saying.

It would be crazy to call a guy who finished 5th in the 100 yard dash in the Olympics "average" just because only 10 guys made the finals.

So Bfine is really saying that Dalton is in the top 40% of the best QBs.

Absolutely, I thought it was understood we were only considering starting NFL QBs. From this point forward I will prefer any suggestions that Andy is merely an average NFL QB with the additional average starting NFL QB; as I mistakenly assumed that was a given.

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2018, 12:33 PM)PhilHos Wrote: He doesn't need to do that, fred. See, what you and bfine are both missing is that in his list of 24, these aren't the only 24 active QBs in the league. They're the 24 active QBs that have thrown 1500 minimum passes. Basically, these are the 24 active QBs with the most staying power. These are the guys that continue to have jobs year after year. These are, essentially, the top 24 QBs active in the NFL as of the creation of this particular list. To be on this list means that you are already, at worse, an average QB. The higher on the list you are, the better a QB you are.

So I would say that the 24th ranked QB on that list is average. The stats bear that out. Ergo, to be 10th on a list of the top 24 active QBs in the league would make one a REALLY good QB. 

I commend bfine for helping to demonstrate that Dalton is one of the top QBs in the league. 

Yes. Andy Dalton is an average NFL starting QB. He joins that new developmental league he will be an elite developmental league starting QB. I was simply comparing him to his peers (starting NFL QBs), he would also be an elite backup NFL QB or the best practice squad QB in the league.

[Luvnit2]

(05-08-2018, 01:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes. Andy Dalton is an average NFL starting QB. He joins that new developmental league he will be an elite developmental league starting QB. I was simply comparing him to his peers (starting NFL QBs), he would also be an elite backup NFL QB or the best practice squad QB in the league.

LOL
Phil and Fred are spanking your opinion based BS

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2018, 01:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  I was simply comparing him to his peers (starting NFL QBs), 

But only the top 24.

How about we look at the active QBs with at least 32 starts.  There are 36 of them.  I think that would give us a better understanding of how he ranks among his peers (12th of 36).

If you expand it to active QBs with at least 16 starts that expands the field to 51 and Dalton ranks 14th.

With 32 teams in the league we have to make the pool greater than just 24 to get a good measure.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-08-2018, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But only the top 24.

How about we look at the active QBs with at least 32 starts.  There are 36 of them.  I think that would give us a better understanding of how he ranks among his peers (12th of 36).

If you expand it to active QBs with at least 16 starts that expands the field to 51 and Dalton ranks 14th.

With 32 teams in the league we have to make the pool greater than just 24 to get a good measure.

No matter which was you slice it (even bfine's way), Dalton comes out as at least above-average to good. 

10th out of 24 = 9 are better, 14 are worse. This would be above-average.

If you expand the attempts to include more starters, he gets even better. 

[*PhilHos*]

(05-08-2018, 01:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes. Andy Dalton is an average NFL starting QB. He joins that new developmental league he will be an elite developmental league starting QB. I was simply comparing him to his peers (starting NFL QBs), he would also be an elite backup NFL QB or the best practice squad QB in the league.

How are you getting 'average'? 10th out of 24 is ABOVE average. Not to mention that the 24 you listed are basically the top 24 QBs over the course of the last quite a few years. The 24th ranked QB on your list has stats that would qualify him as an average QB. So, everyone above him would be above average from the barely-slightly above average #23 to the elite, creme de la creme #1.

In other words, the list that YOU provided has a range starting at average (#24) and going up to the best of the best (#1). It's impossible for you to claim that Dalton is average based on the list that you provided.

[*bfine32*]

According to the link provided Andy is 11th out of 24. Why do folks keep saying 10th? I have no problem considering someone that fall in the 40%-60% percent range average. I had NEVER said Andy is below average. What is wrong with top 1/3 being good, middle third being average, and bottom 1/3 being poor?

I will bet you if we asked folks that follow football (in many cases get paid to do so) outside this forum and not named Hobson. You would get the descriptive of average more than anything else.

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2018, 02:08 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: LOL
Phil and Fred are spanking your opinion based BS

Well your unbiased opinion on the matter aside. I have provided a link from a football datatbase that shows Andy is 11 of 24 in passer rating for QBs that qualify. i suppose I could continue my opinion based BS and show where he finished 18th of 32 in the most recent NFL season. But those things would just be opinions. Real facts come from fans.

[HarleyDog]

Dalton is fine. I don't think he's great by any means but neither was Flacco. Hell, Flacco won a SB based on those around him. Dalton can do it too. Damnit, well, once Marvins gone anyway!

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2018, 07:02 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Dalton is fine. I don't think he's great by any means but neither was Flacco. Hell, Flacco won a SB based on those around him. Dalton can do it too. Damnit, well, once Marvins gone anyway!

hell, I said earlier in the discussion that I think Andy can get is their, but apparently you cannot think that and also think he's an average NFL QB.

[HarleyDog]

(05-08-2018, 07:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: hell, I said earlier in the discussion that I think Andy can get is their, but apparently you cannot think that and also think he's an average NFL QB.

WTF? Re-read what I wrote. 

I love you too! 

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2018, 07:23 PM)HarleyDog Wrote:

WTF? Re-read what I wrote. 

I love you too! 

I was agreeing with your thoughts.

[*rfaulk34*]

(05-08-2018, 06:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: According to the link provided Andy is 11th out of 24. Why do folks keep saying 10th? I have no problem considering someone that fall in the 40%-60% percent range average. I had NEVER said Andy is below average. What is wrong with top 1/3 being good, middle third being average, and bottom 1/3 being poor?

I will bet you if we asked folks that follow football (in many cases get paid to do so) outside this forum and not named Hobson. You would get the descriptive of average more than anything else.

With 1,500 attempts since 2011 being the measuring stick (also, active QBs only), he's 12th out of 23 that qualify (88.7 rating).

9th in Att and Completions
13th in Comp%
10th in yards
9th in TDs
16th (least) in INTs
15th in YPA

Just to clear up any confusion with all the numbers being thrown around.

As a post script, there are 32 teams every year in the NFL. So it's not unreasonable to say he's 12th out of 32 since every team has to field a QB. 

This post isn't an endorsement or opposition to Dalton. I stopped debating him a couple years ago. Just a fact finding mission. 

As a post post script, if you drop the attempts to 1,000, he drops to 14th out of 35 that qualify.

[Neon Icon]

Yo I'd be down with ranking him 12th.

What he is missing is an elite running game. Put a back that averages 4.5 ypc in front of him and watch his stats soar.

[*bfine32*]

(05-08-2018, 11:55 PM)Neon Icon Wrote: Yo I'd be down with ranking him 12th.

What he is missing is an elite running game. Put a back that averages 4.5 ypc in front of him and watch his stats soar.

There's a saying about QBs: You're either the tractor or the wagon. Which one do you think Andy is?

[Shake n Blake]

(05-09-2018, 12:02 AM)bfine32 Wrote: There's a saying about QBs: You're either the tractor or the wagon. Which one do you think Andy is?

How many tractors can tow the wagon we had last year to the playoffs (and post elite numbers)?

You've brought up Cousins last season, but he finished 12th in passer rating with 18 turnovers (13 INTs, 13 fumbles - 5 lost). His team also finished 7-9.

Where are all these guys that posted top 5 numbers and led their team to the playoffs when sacked 40+ times, with a bottom 3 run game (yards and YPC)? You've got 50+ years of SB era teams to choose from. Shouldn't be hard to compose a list if it's a common occurrence.

Stafford almost did it last year, but narrowly missed the playoffs an finished 6th in rating. It just doesn't happen often. Even the greats need help (not saying Dalton is a great). Check out Brady's sack totals and run games through the years. Peyton was rarely touched. Ben has taken sacks, but always has a run game. Needing help doesn't = you're getting towed.

[CornerBlitz]

Some of you make absolutely no sense. I find it laughable that you have such a tough time with average starting QB. Do you realize that the entire world disagrees with you? If you want to deal with statistics only then let us go ahead and do it.

QBR ranking by year.

2017: 25th
2016: 20th
2015: 3rd
2014: 22nd
2013: 17th

So essentially he has been average to below average 4 out of 5 seasons. Yes he played great in 2015 but according to "STATISTICS" he's been average to below average the other 4 years.

I know none of you want to hear this because you're on his jock, but deal with the FACTS.