Moving Kirkpatrick Potential

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-29-2018, 10:34 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I think we have had a great offseason so far, but one move that would really bring the whole thing together for me is if we somehow found a trading partner for Kirkpatrick.

We have so many good corners... I'm not sure if Kirkpatrick is even the 3rd best CB on the squad. Unfortunately, he makes the big bucks, so we will see him out there on Sundays.

Gruden loved him on TNF... can't we ship him that way?

Anywho, I feel bad saying this, but an injury to Kirkpatrick could in theory be a blessing.

Slim odds on trading him at this point, what you guys think?

My two cents:  Dre is our weakest corner of the three:  Dre, WJII, and Dennard.  I think Dennard could easily man the outside spot better than Dre although Dre is not equipped to be a slot corner.  Nor will he ever move to safety.  He is too frail and is a poor tackler. 

That being said, do I think there would be a market for him?  Absolutely.   My question (without reading all the responses thus far, so I apologize if you are being asked to repeat yourself) would be:  What are you hoping to get in return?  A draft pick?  Well, I would imagine no one would part with a first rounder, and although the Bengals could save money (to sign Dennard?) I don't think it is a win for the Bengals if you only get a second round selection for him.

An injury would not be a blessing because then we have Shaw likely playing nickel corner (although that is his best spot, imho) and the drop off from Dennard to him is pretty significant.  

Making "the big bucks" is relative.  I see Dre's contract like Dalton's...pretty significant when it was signed, but after you see some top tier CB contracts come up, you might not see it as so expensive.  

One thing I will say for Dre, he seems to play his best against pitt and in big games and I really, really like that characteristic. 

[Sled21]

(04-29-2018, 11:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Kirkpatrick is an excellent CB and it would be crazy to get rid of him.

Exactly!

[Sled21]

(04-29-2018, 12:57 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Dre has always been trash.  Aaron Rodgers n every other quarterback picked on him last year.

Dre only get's "picked on" because Adam Jones was on the other side of the field.....

[BengalD]

There's no such thing as too many good CB's on a team. Just points to the fact that Adam Jones is probably not going to get picked up by the Bengals again.

[jeremydc]

Silly

[Truck_1_0_1_]

*sigh*

Dre's fine.

I'm still bitter over the phantom PI call on 3rd down in the Patriots game of '16, that opened the floodgates; refs pick on him too.

[WeezyBengal]

(04-30-2018, 08:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: What our CBs do is much more difficult than you give them credit for.  Over the last 4 years (Guenther's OC stint) we have the NUMBER ONE pass efficiency defense in the entire league.  We were numbers one in interceptions and number two in fewest passing tds allowed.

We accomplished this without any great cover safeties or LBs and a pass rush that was far from elite.  

If teams could get these type of results with "later round talent" at CB then they would all be doing it.  But the fact is our CBs are required to do a lot more than you undrestand.  And they do it very well.

Pass efficiency for an ENTIRE GROUP. This has nothing to do with Kirkpatrick's play ALONE. 

It is POSSIBLE, believe it or not, that a group of people could be really good at something but there could still be one person within the group that just isn't very good at what they do. 

[WeezyBengal]

(04-30-2018, 09:05 PM)N_B Wrote: https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/dre-kirkpatrick/7023

One of the worst rated cornerbacks in the last 2-3 years

He's rated poorly EVERY year. All you have to do is watch the games. He's beat deep constantly. He commits huge penalties constantly and cant tackle worth a damn.

How anyone can justify the contract that he got is insane. He's not a number 1 corner. 

[WeezyBengal]

(05-01-2018, 06:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote:  
Those are not "advanced stats".  It is just subjective garbage.

In 2015 they Hda Dre ranked as the 112th CB behind a bunch of scrubs who barely played when Dre was playing 97% of the snaps on the #4 pass defense in the league and ranking in the top 30 inalmostb all objective stats like "Yards per target", "completion percentage allowed", and "success rate".

PFF also uses a formula that allows a player to be ranked behind another pklayer who both plays fewer snaps and messes up moreoften.

So please explain exactly what "advancved stats" and formula PFF uses because it looks like garbage to me.  It is aflwed formula and the stats they plug in are subjective insstead of objective.

So what stats are you using to justify him as being an "excellent" corner back? 

You just using the teams defensive pass stats as a whole? I would hope not. 

Bleacher Report ranked each cornerback in the league after the 2017-2018 season. They have Dre at 36.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754252-nfl1000-ranking-the-top-outside-cornerbacks-of-2017-season#slide9

I think thats more than fair.

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 10:08 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Pass efficiency for an ENTIRE GROUP. This has nothing to do with Kirkpatrick's play ALONE. 

It is POSSIBLE, believe it or not, that a group of people could be really good at something but there could still be one person within the group that just isn't very good at what they do. 

Here is the post I was responding to when I made those comments.  

(04-30-2018, 07:09 AM)SHRacerX Wrote:  My question has always been, though, why do we play so much off coverage when we invest so highly in the CB position?  If we want guys that never make plays underneath and they are just there to avoid giving up anything over the top, we could use later round talent for that.  Put them on an island and attack with the rest of your defense.  

Make sense now?

[fredtoast]

(05-14-2018, 10:17 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: So what stats are you using to justify him as being an "excellent" corner back? 

ProFootballOutsiders provide stats that are objective.  I don't have the '17 numbers yet but here is how Dre ranked in pass defense  among CBs


In 2015 Dre played 97% of the snaps on a defense that finished ranked 5th in the league in pass efficiency. Of the 75 CBs that qualified for the stats compiled by ProFootballOutsiders Dre ranked 18th in yards per target allowed, 32nd in success rate (formula based on stats), and top 25 in completion percentage allowed.


In 2016 Dre played 94% of the snaps for a team that again finished 5th in pass efficiency. He ranked 5th in the league in yds per play and 18th success rate yet.

[BenZoo2]

(05-14-2018, 10:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: ProFootballOutsiders provide stats that are objective.  I don't have the '17 numbers yet but here is how Dre ranked in pass defense  among CBs


In 2015 Dre played 97% of the snaps on a defense that finished ranked 5th in the league in pass efficiency. Of the 75 CBs that qualified for the stats compiled by ProFootballOutsiders Dre ranked 18th in yards per target allowed, 32nd in success rate (formula based on stats), and top 25 in completion percentage allowed.


In 2016 Dre played 94% of the snaps for a team that again finished 5th in pass efficiency. He ranked 5th in the league in yds per play and 18th success rate yet.

What one measurement would you use to sum his play? Success rate?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Socal Bengals fan]

Dre is garbage . what game are you guys watching ? the same people defending Dre are the same ones defending, Dalton, Michael Johnson, Ogbuehi, Marvin Lewis. see a pattern

[fredtoast]

(05-15-2018, 01:19 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Dre is garbage .  what game are you guys watching ?  the same people defending Dre are the same ones defending,  Dalton,  Michael Johnson, Ogbuehi,  Marvin Lewis.    see a pattern

Can I see a link to anyone defending Ogbuehi?

[Brownshoe]

To say Kirkpatrick is garbage is funny. People who make claims like that make me automatically think they dont watch any other games than Bengals games. Kirkpatrick is definitely an above average corner. Is he the best? No, but just because someone isnt the best at their position doesn't make them garbage.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(05-15-2018, 04:49 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: To say Kirkpatrick is garbage is funny. People who make claims like that make me automatically think they dont watch any other games than Bengals games. Kirkpatrick is definitely an above average corner. Is he the best? No, but just because someone isnt the best at their position doesn't make them garbage.

Dre is not above average.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(05-15-2018, 04:49 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: To say Kirkpatrick is garbage is funny. People who make claims like that make me automatically think they dont watch any other games than Bengals games. Kirkpatrick is definitely an above average corner. Is he the best? No, but just because someone isnt the best at their position doesn't make them garbage.

lol.  above average.  what the. ...   he gets picked on, is always a step to late,  never makes a play on the ball and is the worst talking cb I've seen since Bean.

[TheUberHuber]

(05-01-2018, 06:51 AM)fredtoast Wrote:  
Those are not "advanced stats".  It is just subjective garbage.

In 2015 they Hda Dre ranked as the 112th CB behind a bunch of scrubs who barely played when Dre was playing 97% of the snaps on the #4 pass defense in the league and ranking in the top 30 inalmostb all objective stats like "Yards per target", "completion percentage allowed", and "success rate".

PFF also uses a formula that allows a player to be ranked behind another pklayer who both plays fewer snaps and messes up moreoften.

So please explain exactly what "advancved stats" and formula PFF uses because it looks like garbage to me.  It is aflwed formula and the stats they plug in are subjective insstead of objective.

Show me one 2017 stat that says dre is any good....

Pff has him rated 91 for 2017. You have said multiple times you didn't watch any games last year. I feel 100% confident in saying you have no idea what you are talking about.

[fredtoast]

(05-15-2018, 11:12 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: Show me one 2017 stat that says dre is any good....

Pff has him rated 91 for 2017. You have said multiple times you didn't watch any games last year. I feel 100% confident in saying you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'll post the numbers when they are available.  I have already shown how flawed the PFF rankings are.  They had him ranked 112th behind a bunch of scrubs who barely played in '15 when Dre was playing 95% of the snaps on a top 4 pass defense and placing in the top 30 in every OBJECTIVE stat on pass defense.  I'll bet you can not even tell me how the PFF rankings are created.

And I don't know what makes you think  I did not watch any games last year.  I just did not watch ALL of the games last year like I did when I had the Sunday Ticket.  I certainly watched all the games in '15 and back then I was also telling people that Dre was not as bad as PFF claimed.  That year the FO numbers proved I was correct and all the people squealing about the PFF rankings were wrong.  

If the FO numbeers are bad for 2017 I will eat my crow, but I am predicting that he will again be ranked in the top 30 in the league in most of the objective pass defense stats.

[fredtoast]

(05-15-2018, 10:53 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote:   he gets picked on, is always a step to late,  never makes a play on the ball and is the worst talking cb I've seen since Bean.

This is nothing but trolling.

How exactly does Dre have 40 passes defended if he NEVER makes a play on the ball?

Why can't we have a discussion like adults based on facts?