Moving Kirkpatrick Potential

[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 02:59 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Is that just yearly salary or does that factor in bonus paid out?

And I’ll repeat my question to you earlier:  what measure would you use to assess his play?

1.  That is the total cash he will get paid this year.

2.  I use multiple measures.  "Yards per target", "Success rate", "Completion percentage allowed"

[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 03:25 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: This ^^^ is laughable as there’s no way I can take this seriously.  Can’t cover a bed with a blanket...leads the league in penalties averages maybe a pic a year that lands in his lap and his best trait...his physicality is trash he gets punked all the time in embarrassing fashion on solo tackle opportunities consistently.  Excellent may be te firthest thing from a one word description for dre.  I’d start with overpaif, overplayed, maybe overhyped list goes on and on...he’s not excellent.  He’s probably the 4th best corner on the squad if pac returns which I see happening.

More troll talk.

If Dre was this bad then every QB in the league would have been targeting him every play and we could not have had a top 5 pass defense three years with Dre playing over 90% of the snaps.

[BenZoo2]

(05-16-2018, 03:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  That is the total cash he will get paid this year.

2.  I use multiple measures.  "Yards per target", "Success rate", "Completion percentage allowed"

Since you use multiple measures and you seem so hellbent on proving how great he is then combine your multiple rankings to Dre and those same exact measures to the other cb’s in the nfl and rank them all. Let’s see where he ranks


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[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 04:56 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Since you use multiple measures and you seem so hellbent on proving how great he is then combine your multiple rankings to Dre and those same exact measures to the other cb’s in the nfl and rank them all.  Let’s see where he ranks


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I don't have the numbers from '17 yet, but



 Of the 75 CBs that qualified for the stats compiled by ProFootballOutsiders in 2015 Dre ranked 18th in yards per target allowed, 32nd in success rate (formula based on stats), and top 25 in completion percentage allowed.


In 2016 he ranked 5th in the league in yards per target and 18th success rate. 

[BenZoo2]

(05-16-2018, 05:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't have the numbers from '17 yet, but



 Of the 75 CBs that qualified for the stats compiled by ProFootballOutsiders in 2015 Dre ranked 18th in yards per target allowed, 32nd in success rate (formula based on stats), and top 25 in completion percentage allowed.


In 2016 he ranked 5th in the league in yards per target and 18th success rate. 

Yes, I believe you posted those numbers already. How about the top 20 in 2016 in each of those 2 categories? And do you weigh them equally or is one more important to the other?


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[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 05:24 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Yes, I believe you posted those numbers already.  How about the top 20 in 2016 in each of those 2 categories?  And do you weigh them equally or is one more important to the other?

If you have a point make it.

[BenZoo2]

(05-16-2018, 05:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you have a point make it.

I’m just trying to have an adult conversation based on facts. Like you’re always clamoring for. But you just want post snippets of stats that support you’re claim.

I wanted to see the list of players and how Dre stacks against his peers. But you’re not providing it.

My point is this. Dre isn’t as good as you think he is. I can think of several I’d rather have than him. I think he was overpaid on his last deal. I don’t think he is garbage as some have made him out to be.


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[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 06:42 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: I’m just trying to have an adult conversation based on facts.  Like you’re always clamoring for.  But you just want post snippets of stats that support you’re claim.  

I wanted to see the list of players and how Dre stacks against his peers.  But you’re not providing it.

My point is this.  Dre isn’t as good as you think he is.  I can think of several I’d rather have than him.  I think he was overpaid on his last deal.  I don’t think he is garbage as some have made him out to be.  

You may call them "snippets" but they are more than anyone else has posted except "He sucks!"

PFF not only uses a flawed formula, but they also depend on subjective rankings instead of just straight objective stats.  

I can think of several CBs who are better than Dre, but they are all probably making a lot more money than him also.

If you read enough posts you will see that a lot of people here dislike him for reasons that have nothing to do with his pass protection.  Some did not like him when we drafted him and they won't change their minds, some don't like him because of his antics after the whistle, but  MOST don't not like him because they called him a bust his first two seasons and won't admit that they are wrong now. 

[TheUberHuber]

(05-16-2018, 02:29 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Absolutely.

Still stealing money.


First of all, I wasn't trying to make it part of any argument; was merely trying to infer that players get overpaid constantly.

Secondly, what's there to joke about?

He's always been a bottom-tier STARTING QB in the league and since that contract, he's thrown 98 TDs to 74 picks, (same period has Andy throwing 120-64, in comparison) has had a record (even though I don't think it counts) of 38-36 AND he's only had 1 good year since then (2014).

Players get paid a ton all the time, when it isn't deserved. He's PE#1

Dude just because the ravens over paid for a mediocre quarterback doesn't at all justify overpaying Kirkpatrick. That's just silly. 

Andy is a better qb for sure.. I really dont understand where you are going with this.

After looking up Kirkpatricks salary I forgot the guaranteed money drops considerably after next year. I just dont want some scenario like we cant afford to resign wj3  because of Kirkpatrick. That would be frustrating.

[Lawless_1]

(04-29-2018, 11:31 AM)lone bengal Wrote: I’m not a huge Kirkpatrick fan but it makes no sense to trade him.  If we trade him we would only have William Jackson III and Dennard who is injury prone and in the last year of his contract  as our only reliable corners.  Shaw would have to be our nickle corner and he’s not that good.

Harris and Phillips said hello.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-16-2018, 07:30 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: Dude just because the ravens over paid for a mediocre quarterback doesn't at all justify overpaying Kirkpatrick. That's just silly. 

Andy is a better qb for sure.. I really dont understand where you are going with this.

After looking up Kirkpatricks salary I forgot the guaranteed money drops considerably after next year. I just dont want some scenario like we cant afford to resign wj3  because of Kirkpatrick. That would be frustrating.

I said it the last post, I'll say it again: I wasn't justifying or arguing. I was just throwing it out there.

Stop looking for something to sink your teeth into; I'm not going for that.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(05-16-2018, 10:12 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I said it the last post, I'll say it again: I wasn't justifying or arguing. I was just throwing it out there.

Stop looking for something to sink your teeth into; I'm not going for that.

why throw it out there. made no sense on the Dre argument.   His individual stats stink.  so PFF gives individual grades and Dre is a bottom tier cornerback according to them .  But Fred comes with the team is ranked in the top 5 based on some random stat. so Dre must be good.   just silly.

[fredtoast]

(05-16-2018, 11:15 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: why throw it out there. made no sense on the Dre argument.   His individual stats stink.  so PFF gives individual grades and Dre is a bottom tier cornerback according to them .  But Fred comes with the team is ranked in the top 5 based on some random stat. so Dre must be good.   just silly.

Dre's stats don't stink.  I posted them for you.

Team is ranked top 5 in pass efficiency rating.  Same stat the league uses to determin who is the top QB.  How is that "some arndom stat".  Also I did not just rely on team stats.  I posted Dre's individula stats

PFF's individula grades are based on a flawed formula that would allow a player to be ranked behind another player who played far fewer snaps and messed up more often.  Then they plug in "subjective" grades into the flawed formula.

So what it boild down to is that it is silly to rely on the flawed PFF rankings when so many other objective stats show that Dre is a solid top 30 CB in the league.

The problem is that I don't have the individual CB stats and rankings from FO for the '17 season yet.  But the same people who claimed he sucked in '17 also claimed he sucked in '15 and '16 when he was top 30.  So I feel his stats will be close to what they were in '15 and '16.

[BengalChris]

(05-17-2018, 08:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Dre's stats don't stink.  I posted them for you.

Team is ranked top 5 in pass efficiency rating.  Same stat the league uses to determin who is the top QB.  How is that "some arndom stat".  Also I did not just rely on team stats.  I posted Dre's individula stats

PFF's individula grades are based on a flawed formula that would allow a player to be ranked behind another player who played far fewer snaps and messed up more often.  Then they plug in "subjective" grades into the flawed formula.

So what it boild down to is that it is silly to rely on the flawed PFF rankings when so many other objective stats show that Dre is a solid top 30 CB in the league.

The problem is that I don't have the individual CB stats and rankings from FO for the '17 season yet.  But the same people who claimed he sucked in '17 also claimed he sucked in '15 and '16 when he was top 30.  So I feel his stats will be close to what they were in '15 and '16.

The key factors for Dre have nothing to do with his first two years in the league or where he was selected in the draft. It's that he can't guard AB worth a damn and he always seems to be near the top in most penalties for a DB.

Adam Jones, for all his off-field antics and occasional on-field meltdowns, is a better and smarter overall corner who happens to cost less.

Dre was our 4th best corner last year and now he's our 3rd best corner. He moved up not because he got better but because Adam Jones isn't here anymore.