Ogbuehi and Bodine must have been the Zen Masters of Ketchup...

[depthchart]

(05-18-2018, 09:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No he would not.

He had an amazing 20+ year run where he did not have a singlr high drafted players flop.  And for almosta  decade he got by with ZERO highly drafted O-linemen.

Ogbuehi and Fisher (and partly Bodine) cost him his job here.  So maybe his evaluation skills were getting rusty.  But he was a very good coach heer for a very long time.  That is why he got another job immediately.  

The Big question to me is:  Was he often forced to pick though the leftovers by not being allowed to use HIGH draft picks to get O-lineman for many years as you say -or- did he encourage the Front Office to use HIGH draft picks on other positions ?

In other words, did he have a sort of EGO about being able to develop lower round draft picks that caused him to tell Mike that he could find the diamonds in the rough. Mike would be pleased by this because he could go for Corners, tight ends, receivers, defensive ends, running backs in rounds 1 and 2 more often.

Or did Mike just tell Paul that HIGH picks were not going to be used on O-lineman more often than not.

I tend to think that Paul would fall in love with the mid round developmental guys and maybe his EGO & past successes saw diamonds.

But maybe Mike forced him to pick from the scraps more often.

If it was Paul encouraging it, then that would be like a Chef passing up the Prime cuts of steak because he is convinced that he can out cook another Chef with hamburger.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-17-2018, 05:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I wonder if the Cowboys will put up with him for a quarter of a century like we did.

I put the over/under at 3.5 years. That's about normal for the rest on the NFL.

In the Nati, it would be 10+ years. Or however long he is willing to hit Mikey with the Icy Hot on command.

(05-17-2018, 07:42 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: On another note, did anyone happen to catch the part, in the quote from PA's book, where he says something about 437,514 possible alignments to prepare for?  Way to over complicate things there, coach.  They say that the best coaches make the game simpler to the players under them...  This guy should have gotten the boot when Bratkowski did.

He sounds like an egomaniac to me. Someone more interested in showing off his own (self-perceived) brilliance than actually teaching. 

He felt compelled to write a book, needed a phony "assistant HC" title to appease his ego, and judged linemen on how they pour ketchup or how strong their handshake is. The guy thinks he's revolutionary. 

[fredtoast]

(05-18-2018, 10:33 AM)depthchart Wrote: The Big question to me is:  Was he often forced to pick though the leftovers by not being allowed to use HIGH draft picks to get O-lineman for many years as you say -or- did he encourage the Front Office to use HIGH draft picks on other positions ?

In other words, did he have a sort of EGO about being able to develop lower round draft picks that caused him to tell Mike that he could find the diamonds in the rough. Mike would be pleased by this because he could go for Corners, tight ends, receivers, defensive ends, running backs in rounds 1 and 2 more often.

Or did Mike just tell Paul that HIGH picks were not going to be used on O-lineman more often than not.

I tend to think that Paul would fall in love with the mid round developmental guys and maybe his EGO & past successes saw diamonds.

But maybe Mike forced him to pick from the scraps more often.

If it was Paul encouraging it, then that would be like a Chef passing up the Prime cuts of steak because he is convinced that he can out cook another Chef with hamburger.

This is the craziest theory I have ever heard.

Every coach dreams of getting the elite guys to work with.  They desire greatness.

Your example of the chef shows how crazy the idea is.  Great chefs want the best freshest ingredients.  Great cabinet makers want the best wood.  Great coaches want great players.

[t3r3e3]

(05-18-2018, 11:28 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I put the over/under at 3.5 years. That's about normal for the rest on the NFL.

In the Nati, it would be 10+ years. Or however long he is willing to hit Mikey with the Icy Hot on command.


He sounds like an egomaniac to me. Someone more interested in showing off his own (self-perceived) brilliance than actually teaching. 

He felt compelled to write a book, needed a phony "assistant HC" title to appease his ego, and judged linemen on how the pour ketchup or how strong their handshake is. The guy thinks he's revolutionary. 

FWIW I had a the over/under on Fred come by to Piano Man’s defense at post 10.5. The cavalry was late to arrive. Fred is slipping...

[XenoMorph]

(05-18-2018, 03:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the craziest theory I have ever heard.

Every coach dreams of getting the elite guys to work with.  They desire greatness.

Your example of the chef shows how crazy the idea is.  Great chefs want the best freshest ingredients.  Great cabinet makers want the best wood.  Great coaches want great players.

So are you considering PA a great Coach?

Hes had his moments for sure of making things work when you think they wouldn't..

Hes also go to bat for guys like Guichec Livings and Stacy Andrews....

[fredtoast]

(05-18-2018, 04:21 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: So are you considering PA a great Coach?

Hes had his moments for sure of making things work when you think they wouldn't..

Hes also go to bat for guys like Guichec Livings and Stacy Andrews....

He is (was?) a lot better coach than many people around here ever wanted to give him credit for.  He was well respected around the league and in the media.  He was VERY good at teaching pass protection.  He was also good at selecting top picks for the first 20+ years of his tenure as O-line coach.  

But Fisher and Ogbuehi were his downfall.  Our O-line last year was horrific.  No matter how much I can defend his past practices the fact is that the O-line was shit even though we used our first two picks in the '15 draft on OTs.  When that happens the O-line coach should take most of the blame.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-18-2018, 05:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He is (was?) a lot better coach than many people around here ever wanted to give him credit for.  He was well respected around the league and in the media.  He was VERY good at teaching pass protection.  He was also good at selecting top picks for the first 20+ years of his tenure as O-line coach.  

But Fisher and Ogbuehi were his downfall.  Our O-line last year was horrific.  No matter how much I can defend his past practices the fact is that the O-line was shit even though we used our first two picks in the '15 draft on OTs.  When that happens the O-line coach should take most of the blame.

You're right, at one time he was good and quite well respected.  Somewhere along the way, it seems that his ego got the best of him.  He appeared to refuse to change with the times.  

On another note, the organization should learn a very valuable lesson from the Paul Alexander tenure.  Never give a position coach so much title and influence that he can handicap the entire platoon.  Having the OL coach also be named "Assistant Head Coach", along with "Rushing game Coordinator" was just too over the top.  PA having so much title and influence likely led to some pretty bad blood in the coaching room, as well as put Marvin in some very uncomfortable situations.

[depthchart]

(05-18-2018, 03:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the craziest theory I have ever heard.

Every coach dreams of getting the elite guys to work with.  They desire greatness.

Your example of the chef shows how crazy the idea is.  Great chefs want the best freshest ingredients.  Great cabinet makers want the best wood.  Great coaches want great players.

It would not be that he would turn down the opportunity at every turn but rather that he may have had enough self confidence in finding mid round diamonds that he would not pound the table more often for more shots at High round picks over the years.

Maybe a subtle case of ego or a mild form of narcissism that made him fight a little less for High picks to use on O-lineman over the years.

As you said, he went nearly a decade without them.

Why couldn't he convince Mike during that near decade of the need for a high pick or two for him to get to use on O-lineman ?

Did he fight hard for those high picks but was just shot down by Mike ?

Was he just not a good persuader ?  Did he not fight hard for them ?

Or may he have felt that he could stand up to the challenge of not having many high picks to use and could overcome that challenge by finding diamonds to develop ?  Then reassured Mike at times of his ability to do so.

After all, the Chef that can make Chicken salad out of chicken cr@p would have plenty of room to brag. (so to speak)

[fredtoast]

(05-18-2018, 06:01 PM)depthchart Wrote: It would not be that he would turn down the opportunity at every turn but rather that he may have had enough self confidence in finding mid round diamonds that he would not pound the table more often for more shots at High round picks over the years.

Maybe a subtle case of ego or a mild form of narcissism that made him fight a little less for High picks to use on O-lineman over the years.

As you said, he went nearly a decade without them.

Why couldn't he convince Mike during that near decade of the need for a high pick or two for him to get to use on O-lineman ?

Did he fight hard for those high picks but was just shot down by Mike ?

Was he just not a good persuader ?  Did he not fight hard for them ?

Or may he have felt that he could stand up to the challenge of not having many high picks to use and could overcome that challenge by finding diamonds to develop ?  Then reassured Mike at times of his ability to do so.

After all, the Chef that can make Chicken salad out of chicken cr@p would have plenty of room to brag. (so to speak)

I still think this is absurd.

Please provide an example of some other NFL coach doing this at some time.  I have never heard of anything so crazy.

Or are you going to claim that PA just had a larger ego than any other coach in NFL history?

Where are all of you getting this idea that PA ws an out of control egomaniac.  I have never heard any of his players or ex Bengal coaches ever say anything like that.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-18-2018, 06:01 PM)depthchart Wrote: After all, the Chef that can make Chicken salad out of chicken cr@p would have plenty of room to brag. (so to speak)

Would that be the same as trying to play a concerto on the snoopy piano sold in the Sears catalogue?

[*bengalfan74*]

(05-18-2018, 05:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You're right, at one time he was good and quite well respected.  Somewhere along the way, it seems that his ego got the best of him.  He appeared to refuse to change with the times.  

On another note, the organization should learn a very valuable lesson from the Paul Alexander tenure.  Never give a position coach so much title and influence that he can handicap the entire platoon.  Having the OL coach also be named "Assistant Head Coach", along with "Rushing game Coordinator" was just too over the top.  PA having so much title and influence likely led to some pretty bad blood in the coaching room, as well as put Marvin in some very uncomfortable situations.

This

PA was given way to much power and authority.

[Pat5775]

(05-18-2018, 06:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I still think this is absurd.

Please provide an example of some other NFL coach doing this at some time.  I have never heard of anything so crazy.

Or are you going to claim that PA just had a larger ego than any other coach in NFL history?

Where are all of you getting this idea that PA ws an out of control egomaniac.  I have never heard any of his players or ex Bengal coaches ever say anything like that.

Watch some of his interviews, read some of his quotes. Why do you need players or coaches to tell you? You know damn well no player or coach will ever publicly crucify Paul in the media. 

[3wt]

(05-18-2018, 08:16 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: Bold prediction:

Piano man is out on his ass after one year in Dallas... And Mikey Boy brings him back to Cincy as an assistant something or other

Here's the thing.  He has amazing talent in Dallas, so he won't be gone in one year.   And Pollack will be floundering with an O line whose premier player is the left guard and the next best guy is the rookie at center.

[fredtoast]

(05-18-2018, 06:36 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Watch some of his interviews, read some of his quotes. Why do you need players or coaches to tell you? You know damn well no player or coach will ever publicly crucify Paul in the media. 

I have read multiple interviews.  I have read his quotes.  I have read feature stories about him.  I have never once heard him say ANYTHING like "I don't won't any high draft picks.  I don't need them because I am so awesome."

So you are going to have to give me a link.

[Socal Bengals fan]

in other news Fred states Johnny Manziel has the best quarterback rating during the third quarter , of the 5 minute mark when then team is trailing by 21 points at home in week 7 under 35 degrees on 2 down with 3 yards to go or less. zstats don't lie people.

[Pat5775]

(05-18-2018, 07:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have read multiple interviews.  I have read his quotes.  I have read feature stories about him.  I have never once heard him say ANYTHING like "I don't won't any high draft picks.  I don't need them because I am so awesome."

So you are going to have to give me a link.

I'm not playing this game with you, Fred. I'm not the one.

We both know that I was addressing you saying you saw nothing about a coach or player calling PA an out of control egomaniac. You twisting my words and essentially changing the subject in a vain attempt to get a rise out of me won't work. I regret even addressing this with you to begin with. I knew better, and I did it anyway. Lord knows why 

[Pat5775]

(05-18-2018, 06:48 PM)3wt Wrote: Here's the thing.  He has amazing talent in Dallas, so he won't be gone in one year.   And Pollack will be floundering with an O line whose premier player is the left guard and the next best guy is the rookie at center.

True, and I'm well aware. That's why it's a "bold" prediction 

But in all seriousness, I think it's very likely that a few years from now Dallas will have one of the worst Olines in the league and pollack will (hopefully) put together one of the best units in the league.

[grampahol]

Being eccentric gets you noticed in certain circles so why not come up with whacked out theories and run with them? Lots of baseball players have always been, for lack of better terminology, batshit crazy and have some really strange superstitions like wearing the same dirty underwear all season and so forth.. 
It's not exactly unheard of in sports to have the most bizzar theories of how things work or don't work.

[fredtoast]

(05-18-2018, 10:45 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: I'm not playing this game with you, Fred. I'm not the one.

We both know that I was addressing you saying you saw nothing about a coach or player calling PA an out of control egomaniac. You twisting my words and essentially changing the subject in a vain attempt to get a rise out of me won't work. I regret even addressing this with you to begin with. I knew better, and I did it anyway. Lord knows why 

I am not playing either.  It just seems that if you ever heard PA say anything that made him look like an out of control egomaniac you cpould tell me what it was.  In experience when someone makes on of those "Look it up yourself" comments that means there is really nothing to look for.

The hate fro PA jumped the shark when people started trying to claim that PA did not want top players to work with because his ego was so large.  I have never heard of anything like that from any coach of any sport ever.  It is getting silly.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-19-2018, 10:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not playing either.  It just seems that if you ever heard PA say anything that made him look like an out of control egomaniac you cpould tell me what it was.  In experience when someone makes on of those "Look it up yourself" comments that means there is really nothing to look for.

The hate fro PA jumped the shark when people started trying to claim that PA did not want top players to work with because his ego was so large.  I have never heard of anything like that from any coach of any sport ever.  It is getting silly.

C'mon man, the only thing around here that's jumped the shark, is your love for Paul Alexander.  While most fans are overjoyed that the team the team parted ways with a man who's time had surely passed, you continue to gush about how great he is.

Have you purchased yourself a Cowboys T-shirt, yet?